George Zimmerman's Injuries #1

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It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, it wouldn't had been on the report to begin with.

All I know is the DR said "likely broken". You can read it on this screen cap:

[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7924177&postcount=7"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - George Zimmerman's injuries, per leaked reports[/ame]
 
It's either there or it isn't. If it isn't, it wouldn't had been on the report to begin with.

And if it comes to trial, I am sure the doctors could get on the stand and say how he made this diagnosis.
X-rays aren't needed for every diagnosis.
 
I have gone through many medical records for my job and it is not uncommon to see reports like this.

Also, don't know how all doctors do it but my pediatrician always picks up the phone and begins giving a narrative of the appointment as we are leaving. I always assumed that this was being transcribed at some point.

My ophthamologist did this too. And at the beginning of his narrative he noted that it was to be sent to my internist and neurologist so I'm pretty sure it was eventually transcribed.
 
Wonder if donations to the account have dropped off and this 'leak' is the stimulus to try to increase activity!

--in the video here, ABC reporter matt gutman confirms that george was on adderall for ADHD and that donations are coming into the fund at about $1000/per day.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...heds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--dan abrams, legal analyst also comments:

--abrams: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."
 
Or just perhaps the training that they received in medical school allowed them to determine a nose is broken without any x-ray?

Personally I have never heard of getting an x-ray for a broken nose.

There isn't much muscle on the nose. You can easily feel the bone.
 
This was discussed in another thread, or maybe upthread in this one (?). Suzihawk posted a quote from Oliver saying that is exactly what happened. He went to work, told them what happened and they said he needed to see a dr. before coming back. The employer would need a medical clearance to show that his injuries were not work related for work.comp. purposes. Employers do that all the time for risk managment purposes.

Did Oliver say he saw this go down at work or was this a story relayed to him by George?
 
So for every day the sunshine laws are held hostage (figure of speach), it's about a thousand bucks in the fund. That could add up quickly.
 
Has it been confirmed that MOM is the source of the leak?

No, but I agree that is a likely source.


I've never been big on stuff getting leaked but it happens in almost every case. And, as I have been told by many attorneys (not just defense attorneys, either) it is not considered unethical. It is considered a stategic move. Ok, so I may not love it, but I concede the man is doing his job.

IF MOM did leak the info, I assume he was thinking, "heh, my client has taken a brutal beating in the media. Time for some damage control. You guys want docs...well, here ya go. Here are some snippets for you guys to chew on." And I also have to assume he released the tidbits that most support his client.

IF it was a strategic move, it appears to have worked ..... For the time being. When the entire medical reports are released, things may be seen in a different light. We'll have to wait and see. fwiw, I think these will be the first docs released because I can't imagine much redaction necessary, if any at all. No witnesses to protect, etc...
 
--in the video here, ABC reporter matt gutman confirms that george was on adderall for ADHD and that donations are coming into the fund at about $1000/per day.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...heds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--dan abrams, legal analyst also comments:

--abrams: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

I am not sure where Abrams gets his information, but if you read the actual Stand Your Ground law, the aggressor does have a right to use deadly force, only the aggressor has to try and escape first. If Zimmerman was on the ground getting beat up, then it's not easy to escape.
 
--in the video here, ABC reporter matt gutman confirms that george was on adderall for ADHD and that donations are coming into the fund at about $1000/per day.


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...heds-light-injuries-trayvon/story?id=16353532

--dan abrams, legal analyst also comments:

--abrams: "The fundamental legal question remains , who was the aggressor? If George Zimmerman started the altercation and then he’s losing the fight and fears for his life, he does not have the legal right at that point to use deadly force."

Interesting about the Adderall and ADHD...a side effect of Adderall is aggression.
 
The medical report said "We discussed that it was likely broken, but does not appear to have septal deviation."

As to head lacerations: "sutures needed given well approximated skin margins."
 
Also, to add this, a screen capture. Shows "Encounter date": 11:02AM, "Encounter closed" at 3:37PM
28 year old male. Race: White

"Open wounds of scalp without mention of complication"

zimmermanmedicalreport1.jpg


http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...juries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7OFmFLPzRR

Also, snippets here:

zimmermanmedicalreport3.jpg


zimmermanmedicalreport2.jpg
 
But......."likely".

It is to the defense's advantage that the doctor used the word "likely" as opposed to "unlikely." Medically documented injury to GZ's nose is one substantial piece of evidence they will need to prove his story and/or introduce reasonable doubt to the prosecution's case.

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
Do the injuries listed here by ABC coincide with the police report? I have been in and out of this no win case :( and I am not as adept at the details.

I guess, if I were Trayvon and there was a guy following me with a gun and I was cornered in some way, I might be tempted to try and put the guy on the ground before I was shot. I am not saying that is what happened-I am saying this is what I have thought.

So injuries on Mr Zimmerman dont necessarily mean he was defending himself when he shot Trayvon. JMO.
 
The use of plain images and computed tomography (CT) scans for the diagnosis and management of nasal fractures has been controversial. Several small studies have shown that use of these modalities is neither cost-effective nor beneficial to the patient or physician. Nasal fractures are usually evident and can be elicited by means of careful history taking and physical examination. Rarely is the radiologic confirmation of these injuries needed.[14] However, some clinicians still use plain images and CT scans, and the radiologist must understand some of the diagnostic pitfalls to reduce the rate of erroneous readings.[15, 16]

The legal value of an examination depends on the degree of medical findings supported by the examination results.[22] In isolated cases of nasal trauma, radiographs have a high number of false-negative results and a large, but unknown, number of false-positive results. Thus, the legal value is low because of the uncertain degree of confidence in the findings. Radiographic examinations of the nose have been known to fail in the assessment of nasal fractures.[22]


http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/391863-overview

Much more at link. IMO, there were no convincing reasons to do any images. Plain films (which is what kind of imaging the clinic likley has available, if they have any radiology services) would have yielded the least reliable information. And there is no indication for CT or MRI that I can see so far.

Imaging would not have changed the treatment plan at THIS stage of the injury. Later on ( months to years later), if any kind of nasal surgery were contemplated, the appropriate work up would be done, with imaging.

I kind of don't understand why there is such importance being placed on having radiographic imaging to "prove" the injury. It was minor, with no other facial fractures suspected. That's enough for me to know. The injury existed, and it was not major (requiring hospitalization or surgery) within 24 hours of the incident.
 
I wonder if these medical records are the alleged medical records that O'Mara waved around in court during the bond hearing. And if they've been turned over to the SA as he said was proper in order to cross the detective?

Just curious since he seemed rather desperate to get them on record via the detective without having to wait for a discovery exchange. Since that failed, I guess the leak is the next best thing.

JMO
 
In the "decision making process" section of the report, the doctor says they discussed that the nose was likely broken. Above that, there is a section where the diagnoses from the visit are listed. Apparently, the doctor felt comfortable enough with his/her assessment to list an actual diagnosis of closed fracture of the nasal bones in that section.

I don't think it really matters whether GZ's nose was "likely" broken or actually broken, though. The point is that he did have an obvious injury to his nose, significant enough to have caused black eyes and swelling, according to the doctor's report. That tells me that something came into forceful contact with his nose. It doesn't tell me anything about who the initial aggressor was, but it tends to corroborate Zimmerman's claim that he was punched.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...juries-trayvon/story?id=16353532#.T7PkclLlYp4
 
Did Oliver say he saw this go down at work or was this a story relayed to him by George?

Idk. But I have no reason to doubt it since it's SOP and completely consistent with the information we have.
 
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