British student murdered in Perugia, 3 suspects

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You are talking about the correct guy yes. And i have no doubt he was there although he claims she consented to have sex. The point i was trying to make is...that some seem all to eager to solely blame Guede for doing this and not to accept that AK and WS was involved even though a neigbour said he heard several feet running away from the apartment. What no one could ever explain to me was tho that if Guede did the crime solo...who did the other feet belong to that was heard running away?

[bbm]

I had read that it was a female neighbour and that she later recanted, saying that it was a different night she heard the footsteps running away

doesn't matter anyway - it's not evidence of anything imo unless she actually saw who was running

I actually saw a re-enactment by a newscrew (or investigators?) in her place or one next to it where they had someone run down the street with the window closed and open to test if it was feasible that someone could've even heard what she heard - I can't link (sooo long ago) and I don't presicely remember the results of their experiment, except that one person thought they heard something but couldn't say one way or the other whether it was footsteps?

anyone else remember this experiement or have I gone mad???
 
Do we know when during the interrogation process she began "changing her story"?

The 48 Hours broadcast in the States last night (strongly pro-defense) made it seem as if AK changed her account and fingered her boss only after considerable pressure under questioning.

I am in no way defending the blaming of innocent people, but it isn't an uncommon response to vigorous interrogation. And per recent studies, "coerced confessions" are more likely among the young, particularly those without experience dealing with LE.

***
Aren't coerced confessions usually the person being interrogated admitting to the crime themselves rather than placing an innocent person there? It seems to me that AK was deliberately trying to lead LE down the wrong path in order to save herself. Somewhat like Casey A. MOO
 
[bbm]

I had read that it was a female neighbour and that she later recanted, saying that it was a different night she heard the footsteps running away

doesn't matter anyway - it's not evidence of anything imo unless she actually saw who was running

I actually saw a re-enactment by a newscrew (or investigators?) in her place or one next to it where they had someone run down the street with the window closed and open to test if it was feasible that someone could've even heard what she heard - I can't link (sooo long ago) and I don't presicely remember the results of their experiment, except that one person thought they heard something but couldn't say one way or the other whether it was footsteps?

anyone else remember this experiement or have I gone mad???

it was from and older 48 hours. they showed it again last night. they were in the apartment above that womans apartment.
 
[bbm]

I had read that it was a female neighbour and that she later recanted, saying that it was a different night she heard the footsteps running away

doesn't matter anyway - it's not evidence of anything imo unless she actually saw who was running

I actually saw a re-enactment by a newscrew (or investigators?) in her place or one next to it where they had someone run down the street with the window closed and open to test if it was feasible that someone could've even heard what she heard - I can't link (sooo long ago) and I don't presicely remember the results of their experiment, except that one person thought they heard something but couldn't say one way or the other whether it was footsteps?

anyone else remember this experiement or have I gone mad???

Breathe a sigh of relief LadyL, you have not gone mad. It was on 48 Hour Mysteries last night!
 
The problem is Amanda actually said she saw Patrick killing Meredith which is pretty specific. Another story was she wasnt at home that night and that she was at her boyfriends. ANOTHER story was that she could have been home. I think there was also a version that she dreamed what happened. IIRC there was ctv cameras showing her walking towards her own home that night shortly before the murder. Some months LATER she then claimed all her stories had been under duress because she had been hit on the head.

The problem is that multiple accounts can be a sign of a guilty perp who's a lousy liar, but it can also be a sign of an innocent person under duress and trying to give her interrogators what they want to hear. In the cases of coerced confessions I've encountered, the confessor almost always gives conflicting accounts because he or she doesn't know the truth and is trying to find the "magic words" to end the ordeal.

FWIW, the program I saw said the idea to accuse PL came from the police because of a text message AK had sent him, saying "See you later." If true, that is consistent with a false confession trying to accommodate what the interrogators say they already know.

Ok so..if this was true why did she not report it at the time so a investigation could be made? If she was abused why did she not ask her solicitor to take photos or ask to see a Dr? Simple because in my opinion its no more truthful than any other story she had come out with.

There are reasonable (and innocent) answers to your questions. She didn't know she could file a complaint or didn't know how or didn't believe it would do any good. (There's a considerable history in the U.S. of such complaints merely resulting in a department cover-up and whitewash.) She was afraid of the police and unwilling to further antagonize them.

She claims she was hit in the head and it frightened her into compliance. In the brief tape of her testimony I saw last night, she did not claim she was badly injured or that she was left with visible wounds.

Certainly your questions are fair ones and, yes, it's very easy to confess and then later claim you were intimidated into telling falsehoods.

But the lack of an official complaint isn't proof the incident didn't happen, nor more than the lack of an arrest is proof that so-and-so is innocent of a crime.

Also for the record she had in fact been in trouble with the American police before going to Italy so yes she was used to dealing with them.

Thanks. Like so many aspects of this case, I didn't know that. Do you know what sort of trouble was she in?

As for how the Prosecutors are picked..apparently lawyers are promoted after recieving a indictment from the Grand Jury..so i guess lawyers who have good reputations and track records.

Got it. Obviously, somebody has to make the decision to promote, but your point is that the job isn't a casual political appointment handed out to relatives and cronies.

Thanks for that info, too, and for all your very informative posts.
 
it was from and older 48 hours. they showed it again last night. they were in the apartment above that womans apartment.

excellent - I haven't lost my mind then :waitasec:

was I correct in my recall of the results?
 
Aren't coerced confessions usually the person being interrogated admitting to the crime themselves rather than placing an innocent person there? It seems to me that AK was deliberately trying to lead LE down the wrong path in order to save herself. Somewhat like Casey A. MOO

Good question.

But in the two cases that immediately come to mind (West Memphis Three and a case in San Diego where a teen-age boy was browbeaten into confessing to killing his sister), the innocent suspect falsely implicated others and, in the process, incriminated himself. (In the WM3 case, at least, the confessor didn't even realize he was incriminating himself; he was mentally challenged apart from the interrogation.)

In all such cases, the confessor seems to reach a point where s/he believes the consequences of the confession will be minor compared to the pain of continuing the interrogation. It's a bad and stupid and morally reprehensible bargain, of course, but we know that people do reach such points.
 
it's not that she dressed inappropriately, it's just that she "dressed down" she wore normal, everyday clothes. on 48 hours, i saw one day she was wearing a hoodie. i think that most people would dress more professionally in court. i wouldn't show up for a job interview in a hoodie, because i know that i'm being judged and want to be taken seriously...

Nor I, but why is this evidence of guilt? As opposed to evidence of ineffective counsel.
 
I caught the last 15 min. of the program, and it was very pro-Amanda biased. I have to say for the first time, I'm very disappointed in 48 hours, they just went down to the level of tabloid journalism in my book!
I'm so glad you brought this up. It seems to me almost every news station I have watched made it sound like Amanda was the Virgin Mary and wrongly punished. Friday night was the pits with the television talk shows and the opinions of their guests.

Amanda has been rightfully convicted. IMO and the judges.
 
[bbm]

I had read that it was a female neighbour and that she later recanted, saying that it was a different night she heard the footsteps running away

doesn't matter anyway - it's not evidence of anything imo unless she actually saw who was running....

I took it from the program I saw that the prosecutor thought the testimony proved his contention that three people committed the crime.

But like you I'm puzzled: even if the 48 Hours test was flawed and the witness could somehow hear footsteps several floors below on a cold night, how does she distinguish the exact number of people? I can understand that she knew people ran in two directions and maybe she could tell that only one person went one way. But how does one "hear" the difference between two or three or four people running the other way?

I feel confident human nature is the same in Italy as here: sometimes witnesses are mistaken; sometimes they decide the prosecution "needs help" to avoid a miscarriage of justice; and sometimes they just want to be a part of a high-profile case. (ETA: and in fairness, sometimes they are accurate.)
 
The problem is that multiple accounts can be a sign of a guilty perp who's a lousy liar, but it can also be a sign of an innocent person under duress and trying to give her interrogators what they want to hear. In the cases of coerced confessions I've encountered, the confessor almost always gives conflicting accounts because he or she doesn't know the truth and is trying to find the "magic words" to end the ordeal.

FWIW, the program I saw said the idea to accuse PL came from the police because of a text message AK had sent him, saying "See you later." If true, that is consistent with a false confession trying to accommodate what the interrogators say they already know.



There are reasonable (and innocent) answers to your questions. She didn't know she could file a complaint or didn't know how or didn't believe it would do any good. (There's a considerable history in the U.S. of such complaints merely resulting in a department cover-up and whitewash.) She was afraid of the police and unwilling to further antagonize them.

She claims she was hit in the head and it frightened her into compliance. In the brief tape of her testimony I saw last night, she did not claim she was badly injured or that she was left with visible wounds.

Certainly your questions are fair ones and, yes, it's very easy to confess and then later claim you were intimidated into telling falsehoods.

But the lack of an official complaint isn't proof the incident didn't happen, nor more than the lack of an arrest is proof that so-and-so is innocent of a crime.



Thanks. Like so many aspects of this case, I didn't know that. Do you know what sort of trouble was she in?



Got it. Obviously, somebody has to make the decision to promote, but your point is that the job isn't a casual political appointment handed out to relatives and cronies.

Thanks for that info, too, and for all your very informative posts.


love your post!

the 'trouble' she got in was one incident just prior to moving to Italy - it involved a 'going away' party that got way out of hand - people were throwing things and being loud & disruptive

apparently, she was the only one charged b/c she hosted the party and perhaps wasn't very helpful to the police when they arrived?

IMO it was a bunch of drunken morons acting like college kids do - it has happened here so much that LE was forced to put together a specific 'task force' to take care of the partiers

that is the only incident of her 'being in trouble' with the law and I for one, don't think it points to being 'familiar' with that lifestyle or 'used to dealing with LE' or whatever is being run through the rumour mill

this is the kind of hysteria that makes me nervous - that she was some kind of unchecked monster prior to the brutal death of Meredith and that Amanda's parents must be horrible people for raising such a monster

I think too many assumptions are being made and not enough questions are being asked (here at WS and in general)

I have no problem concluding that a pretty white American female is a monster (we've seen plenty of those) and being Canadian - we have our very own disgusting representation of that 'archtype' in the form of one Karla Homolka :sick:

so I'm not in denial about the possibility of it all - I'm just in doubt about the process and supposed 'evidence'

p.s. this ended up as a diatribe and not at all directed at you (just bounced off your post)

:innocent:
 
Nor I, but why is this evidence of guilt? As opposed to evidence of ineffective counsel.

it's not, but apparently its swaying public opinion of her. some people think (i'm assuming, i don't think this) that it is just another way that AK is showing that she doesn't care or is not taking this seriously.
 
Good question.

But in the two cases that immediately come to mind (West Memphis Three and a case in San Diego where a teen-age boy was browbeaten into confessing to killing his sister), the innocent suspect falsely implicated others and, in the process, incriminated himself. (In the WM3 case, at least, the confessor didn't even realize he was incriminating himself; he was mentally challanged apart from the interrogation.)

In all such cases, the confessor seems to reach a point where s/he believes the consequences of the confession will be minor compared to the pain of continuing the interrogation. It's a bad and stupid and morally reprehensible bargain, of course, but we know that people do reach such points.
You're right ~ I can see it if the person being questioned is totally intimidated by LE or is mentally impaired. Despite her age though, AK isn't uneducated and doesn't seem to fit into either category. And by implicating Patrick it seems more like she wanted revenge. Just MOO
 
excellent - I haven't lost my mind then :waitasec:

was I correct in my recall of the results?

yes, the woman that lived there said she heard nothing and the 48 hours dude said he could hear SOMETHING, but couldn't tell exactly what he was hearing. but also, these two were LISTENING for something. how many people hang out in their bathrooms, waiting to hear something?
 
it's not, but apparently its swaying public opinion of her. some people think (i'm assuming, i don't think this) that it is just another way that AK is showing that she doesn't care or is not taking this seriously.

Sorry, I misunderstood and thought you were agreeing with the argument rather than just explaining it. Thanks for the clarification.
 
it's not that she dressed inappropriately, it's just that she "dressed down" she wore normal, everyday clothes. on 48 hours, i saw one day she was wearing a hoodie. i think that most people would dress more professionally in court. i wouldn't show up for a job interview in a hoodie, because i know that i'm being judged and want to be taken seriously...

I'm curious as to why she didn't have more formal attire - looks like she had whatever she could borrow (or was possibly released to her from her own closet after the house was accessible again)

usually, our attorneys will get our 'good' clothes to us or make arrangements for our family to buy something

why didn't this happen in this case?

I'm interested in an explanation of that b/c I doubt very highly that her lawyer recommended better attire and she refused

I know her family's not rich and per father 'leveraged to the hilt' but I think they could've gotten her some good clothes, even if they had to borrow some

so what's going on with that?

hmmm ...
 
You're right ~ I can see it if the person being questioned is totally intimidated by LE or is mentally impaired. Despite her age though, AK isn't uneducated and doesn't seem to fit into either category. And by implicating Patrick it seems more like she wanted revenge. Just MOO

It is unfortunate that the only two cases I can recall off-hand involve a minor and a border-line retarded person.

Of course youth and mental impairment are significant factors in false confessions. According to the Innocence Project...

http://www.innocenceproject.org/Content/351.php


...35% of the false confessions they've proven involved minors under the age of 18. But that leaves the other 65% and I doubt those confessors were all retarded.

AK was 20 at the time, in a foreign country and far from her family and her native legal system. These factors don't prove her stories were coerced, but they should give us pause.
 
You're right ~ I can see it if the person being questioned is totally intimidated by LE or is mentally impaired. Despite her age though, AK isn't uneducated and doesn't seem to fit into either category. And by implicating Patrick it seems more like she wanted revenge. Just MOO

Perhaps, if she offered PL's name out of the blue. But the program I saw claimed the police suggested it first. Of course, there's no tape...

Personally, I think the law should require all police interrogations be taped. Not because I think police are corrupt as a rule, but because the process itself is highly unusual.
 
Perhaps, if she offered PL's name out of the blue. But the program I saw claimed the police suggested it first. Of course, there's no tape...

Personally, I think the law should require all police interrogations be taped. Not because I think police are corrupt as a rule, but because the process itself is highly unusual.
I definitely agree with you on this ~ interrogations should be recorded and preferably on videotape. That would end any speculation in a lot of cases. Also I understand AK wasn't fluent in Italian when she arrived in the country so I am curious in what languages was the interrogation handled, or was an English interpreter present? MOO
 
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