Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices

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Heyya otg,

otg said:
Tad, the whole point of all my postings on this is that the “garrote mechanism” is not functional as it was made. Could the cord have strangled her in a way other than by hanging? Yes. But did the “handle” serve any purpose? No; especially if it had her hair tangled in the knot -- which it did. As for it possibly being used in another way (tied to a chair or a bedpost), I suppose it would be a possibility. I don’t really see how all the other evidence would fit in with a scenario like that, but if you can come up with one, I’m all ears. Like I’ve said before, I’m not married to any one theory; and I’m not trying to fit the evidence together to come to a predetermined conclusion. The evidence is what it is. It’s up to us to figure what it means..
Click to expand...

Yes, re stick, if a double prusik was the knot used, then it serves no additional purpose to again knot the tail end of the rope that is tied to the stick. If anything, the extra knot off-centers the symmetry when pulled.

otg said:
On the total length of cord... I had not included the length of cord used on wrists. I was only trying to figure, as close as possible, the length of cord between the left wrist knot and the neck knot; and it was based on a lot of assumptions and estimates because of a lack of verifiable or otherwise known information. This was only to see if there was enough estimated length for it to have possibly been used like that. IMO, there was.

Others (and you) may disagree with my conclusion, but it all seems to fit with everything else we know.
Click to expand...

No, I haven't drawn any conclusions with respect to the possibility of hanging, just wondered if in your readings, the possibilty of other positions/angles of 'hanging' could be entertained.

It doesn't take but an inch to 'hang'.
 
MurriFlower said:
Playing again with my cord and poor old foot.
Click to expand...

So, is your family starting to wonder if you’ve lost your mind yet? (Don't worry mine gave up on me a long time ago.)

Yes, the knot could be tightened (that is pushed down) by hand or as you say by pulling against it by positioning it to the side. This still doesn't explain the 'handle' and how she was strangled.
Click to expand...
(my bold)
I thought it would be better if you realized that on your own. It doesn’t, but you’ve now confirmed that in your own mind.

It was suggested so often that it was twisted to tighten the ligature, I decided to try it. If you twist the cord for long enough, it becomes straight and round like a pipe, and in doing so, the distance between the knot and the cord becomes much less. Then a funny thing happens, the twisted cord can spin within the slip knot and the cord is able to be tightened. Eureka!! :woohoo:
Click to expand...
(again, my bold)
So how long is long enough? Pretty long time -- yes? And in the case of JonBenet, when did this twisted cord become untwisted? And (last one) how would it have been twisted like that with her hair entwined in the knot?
.
 
Tadpole12 said:
Yes, re stick, if a double prusik was the knot used, then it serves no additional purpose to again knot the tail end of the rope that is tied to the stick. If anything, the extra knot off-centers the symmetry when pulled.
Click to expand...

Do you mean "prusik" in a general sense, or specifically a Prusik Hitch? Read post #117[/url]: [ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=5749401&postcount=117"]Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices[/ame]


No, I haven't drawn any conclusions with respect to the possibility of hanging, just wondered if in your readings, the possibility of other positions/angles of 'hanging' could be entertained.
Click to expand...

Certainly! I love to entertain, and be entertained. Thrill me.

It doesn't take but an inch to 'hang'.
Click to expand...

Didn't someone famous say that? Sounds like it anyway. And you know the other old saying... Give a man an inch and... Oh, nevermind.

Later, Tad........................
.
 
otg said:
So, is your family starting to wonder if you’ve lost your mind yet? (Don't worry mine gave up on me a long time ago.)
Click to expand...

I only do it when I'm home alone LOL.

(my bold)
I thought it would be better if you realized that on your own. It doesn’t, but you’ve now confirmed that in your own mind.
Click to expand...

Yes, but of course, but it had to have some purpose, (please don't say 'staging' cause that makes no sense).

(again, my bold)
So how long is long enough? Pretty long time -- yes? And in the case of JonBenet, when did this twisted cord become untwisted? And (last one) how would it have been twisted like that with her hair entwined in the knot?
.[/QUOTE]

about 30 full turns makes it start to slip inside the knot and around 40 it'll start to tighten by just holding it firm. The 15" between the knot and the stick, reduces to about half. If the hair became entwined while this process was going on, that makes sense. It unwinds when you let it go.
 
Heyya otg.

re: Strangling force.

http://www.search.com/reference/Strangling


Even though the mechanism of strangulation is similar, it is usually distinguished from hanging by the strangling force being something other than the person's own bodyweight.[4] Incomplete occlusion of the carotid arteries is expected, and in cases of homicide, the victim may struggle for a period of time,[4] with unconsciousness typically occurring in 10 to 15 seconds.[10] Cases of ligature strangulation generally involve homicides of women, children, and the elderly,[4] but accidents and suicides occur as well.[11] Suicide by ligature strangulation requires that the constriction around the neck be held even after loss of consciousness,[4] which can be accomplished with complicated knots.[3]
 
http://judoinfo.com/chokes6.htm


If the carotid artery hold is properly applied, unconsciousness occurs in approximately 10 seconds (8-14 seconds). After release, the subject regains consciousness spontaneously in 10-20 seconds. Neck pressure of 250 mm of Hg or 5 kg of rope tension is required to occlude carotid arteries. The amount of pressure to collapse the airway is six times greater.
 
.
(edited for clarity on quotes)
MurriFlower said:
Murri:
Yes, the knot could be tightened (that is pushed down) by hand or as you say by pulling against it by positioning it to the side. This still doesn't explain the 'handle' and how she was strangled.

otg:
I thought it would be better if you realized that on your own. It doesn’t, but you’ve now confirmed that in your own mind.

Murri:
Yes, but of course, but it had to have some purpose, (please don't say 'staging' cause that makes no sense).
Click to expand...

I’m not going to say it, I’d rather you realize it on your own. You’re almost there. Look at the totality of evidence associated with the ligature. That would include the type of knot used, what was used as a “handle”, the fact that her hair was caught in the knot when it was tied, and the result of it all (shown in the autopsy photos). And, of course, because of your experimentation and willingness to look at it critically and objectively, that personal knowledge you now have of the difficulty in using it in some way or another is part of the “evidence” you have that someone else may not.

Consider it all with the information you have, and you’ll figure it out. The evidence speaks. It may be a shout, it may be a whisper. We may not hear it, but it’s there. Listen to the evidence without personal feelings or a desire for a predetermined outcome.

Who knows? You may have an “aha” moment like SuperDave. Your conclusion may be different than his, or different than mine; but when it happens, you’ll know it.
.
 
otg said:
.
(edited for clarity on quotes)

I’m not going to say it, I’d rather you realize it on your own. You’re almost there. Look at the totality of evidence associated with the ligature. That would include the type of knot used, what was used as a “handle”, the fact that her hair was caught in the knot when it was tied, and the result of it all (shown in the autopsy photos). And, of course, because of your experimentation and willingness to look at it critically and objectively, that personal knowledge you now have of the difficulty in using it in some way or another is part of the “evidence” you have that someone else may not.

Consider it all with the information you have, and you’ll figure it out. The evidence speaks. It may be a shout, it may be a whisper. We may not hear it, but it’s there. Listen to the evidence without personal feelings or a desire for a predetermined outcome.

Who knows? You may have an “aha” moment like SuperDave. Your conclusion may be different than his, or different than mine; but when it happens, you’ll know it.
.
Click to expand...

Give it a go otg, you will see that it works.
 
Detective Trujillo, who was present at the Autopsy, called a CBI technician and asked him how best he could lift prints from JonBenet's skin. The technician told Trujillo it was best to tent the body and fume it using super glue. Trujillo ended up using a different, simpler method and lifted one partial print.

Meyer decided not to make note of those events in his report. Afterward, he had continued with an internal examination of the body. He had seen no sternal or rib fractures. He noted that he had found some scattered petechial hemorrhages on the surface of each lung and on the front surface of the heart. These suggested death by suffocation.
 
Toltec said:
Detective Trujillo, who was present at the Autopsy, called a CBI technician and asked him how best he could lift prints from JonBenet's skin. The technician told Trujillo it was best to tent the body and fume it using super glue. Trujillo ended up using a different, simpler method and lifted one partial print.

Meyer decided not to make note of those events in his report. Afterward, he had continued with an internal examination of the body. He had seen no sternal or rib fractures. He noted that he had found some scattered petechial hemorrhages on the surface of each lung and on the front surface of the heart. These suggested death by suffocation.
Click to expand...

Can you please tell where you sourced this information, thanks.
 
otg said:
Do you mean "prusik" in a general sense, or specifically a Prusik Hitch? Read post #117[/url]: Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - Cords, Knots, and Strangulation Devices




Certainly! I love to entertain, and be entertained. Thrill me.



Didn't someone famous say that? Sounds like it anyway. And you know the other old saying... Give a man an inch and... Oh, nevermind.

Later, Tad........................
.
Click to expand...

heyya otg.

the double prusik: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5AJOM7RRg0[/ame]

ty for the reference link.

err, should have used the word considered.
 
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friction_hitch[/ame]

List of friction hitches

Warning: Though useful in other contexts, not all of the friction hitches listed below are suitable for rock climbing.
ie: [ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u0YxU5C_KrQ[/ame]



ya, maybe the Machard?

machard at 4: 35 mark:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MneVi5RqN_k[/ame]
 
otg said:
I’m not going to say it, I’d rather you realize it on your own. You’re almost there.
Click to expand...

I was going to say, otg: it makes sense to me. And I'm more than happy to explain why.

Look at the totality of evidence associated with the ligature.
Click to expand...

Speaks for itself there.

Who knows? You may have an “aha” moment like SuperDave.[/QUOTE]

That's not something I'd wish on people, otg.
 
otg said:
DD, I believe you are right about the coroner having to cut the hair to remove the paintbrush knot, but that’s a big assumption to make without a source. It isn’t mentioned in the AR, so where did you find that Meyers said that? It’s very important, because if true, it completely blows out of the water any supposition that the thing was used as a garrote of any sort (which of course I feel it was not) -- even is she was unconscious.


Fine blonde hair, Meyer noted, was tangled in the knot of the cord around the child's neck as well as in the knot of the cord tied around the stick.

PMPT ppb page 42

A white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizontal furrow had been dug into the skin. A gold chain and cross were tangled in that ligature, which was tied behind the neck to a broken stick. Blond hair was snared in the knot, and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garrote.

Steve Thomas ITRMI ppb page 45
Click to expand...
 
MurriFlower said:
Playing again with my cord and poor old foot.

Yes, the knot could be tightened (that is pushed down) by hand or as you say by pulling against it by positioning it to the side. This still doesn't explain the 'handle' and how she was strangled.

It was suggested so often that it was twisted to tighten the ligature, I decided to try it. If you twist the cord for long enough, it becomes straight and round like a pipe, and in doing so, the distance between the knot and the cord becomes much less. Then a funny thing happens, the twisted cord can spin within the slip knot and the cord is able to be tightened.
Eureka!! :woohoo:
Click to expand...
If you consider the totality of the neck ligature evidence, twisting the single string of cord leading over a distance of 15 inches (!) from the paintbrush stick to the tied neck knot makes no sense because it is effectual.
Imo the evidence indicates that neither the "handle" nor any twisting action was needed to get the neck ligature tight. All which the tying of this simple neck knot required was plain fingerwork.
 
rashomon said:
If you consider the totality of the neck ligature evidence, twisting the single string of cord leading over a distance of 15 inches (!) from the paintbrush stick to the tied neck knot makes no sense because it is effectual.
Imo the evidence indicates that neither the "handle" nor any twisting action was needed to get the neck ligature tight. All which the tying of this simple neck knot required was plain fingerwork.
Click to expand...

Let me start by saying I know NOTHING about knots. And I know there has been much discussion about different types of knots and whether the cord was tied with a specific type of knot, knowledge of which may have been had by JR or his family (being sailors).
And I don't know whether the garrote knot is a specific knot, but to me it looks like just a knot, the kind I or anyone else with no knowledge of knots would tie.
I realize that someone with knowledge of knots might tie a specific knot without even thinking about it, but I don't think that a specific knot was tied on JB for any particular reason.
 
Toltec said:
otg said:
DD, I believe you are right about the coroner having to cut the hair to remove the paintbrush knot, but that’s a big assumption to make without a source. It isn’t mentioned in the AR, so where did you find that Meyers said that? It’s very important, because if true, it completely blows out of the water any supposition that the thing was used as a garrote of any sort (which of course I feel it was not) -- even is she was unconscious.


Fine blonde hair, Meyer noted, was tangled in the knot of the cord around the child's neck as well as in the knot of the cord tied around the stick.

PMPT ppb page 42

A white cord of the same type was wrapped so tightly around the throat and neck that a deep horizontal furrow had been dug into the skin. A gold chain and cross were tangled in that ligature, which was tied behind the neck to a broken stick. Blond hair was snared in the knot, and the coroner had to cut the hair in order to remove the cord, which was tied more like a noose than a twisting garrote.

Steve Thomas ITRMI ppb page 45
Click to expand...

Toltec,
Excellent references, puts any notion of an IDI theory in the bin!


.
Click to expand...
 
DeeDee249 said:
Let me start by saying I know NOTHING about knots. And I know there has been much discussion about different types of knots and whether the cord was tied with a specific type of knot, knowledge of which may have been had by JR or his family (being sailors).
And I don't know whether the garrote knot is a specific knot, but to me it looks like just a knot, the kind I or anyone else with no knowledge of knots would tie.
I realize that someone with knowledge of knots might tie a specific knot without even thinking about it, but I don't think that a specific knot was tied on JB for any particular reason.
Click to expand...

DeeDee249,
The knot is only important if you can match its type to some hobby or profession. Whats more relevant is that with JonBenet's hair entwined into the knotting, then the stick was never twisted since JonBenet's hair has not been pulled out at the roots.


Its staging pure and simple!


.
 
UK Guy,
EXACTLY.

Staged garrote. John owned a boat, certainly all three of them knew how to tie a knot. Most importantly is how Patsy's sweater fibers ended up in the paint tote and one tangeled in the knot itself if she claimed she had never been in the basement that night or morning.
 
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