Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

eileenhawkeye said:

On another thread, we discussed possible reasons why the Ramseys didn't dump JBR's body outside. By deciding to leave the body in the house, the Ramseys had 6800 square feet to choose from. The basement was the most logical choice, because there was no way the R's could stumble upon it during the morning frenzy, and it was the farthest from the bedrooms.

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eileenhawkeye,

The basement was the most logical choice, because there was no way the R's could stumble upon it during the morning frenzy, and it was the farthest from the bedrooms.

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What R's? They were all involved. Burke knows his parents lied through their teeth. He was likely told to keep his mouth shut, contributing towards his detached profile.

The R's thought the police would come and hopefully accept the ransom note at face value, then they would eventually go away, allowing John and Patsy to fly out of Colorado, leaving Burke and JonBenet behind.

If this had occurred then maybe people would have viewed the R's differently. Once John had been told he was going nowhere and his flight was cancelled, it was then he must have come up with Plan B since an abduction implies JonBenet was not present in the house.

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UKGuy,

First and foremost, your posts are excellent - incisive, analytical and critical. However, I am curious, you have persistently stated that JR and PR were possibly attempting a getaway without BR and JBR. Why? Or perhaps, why are you so convinced Burke would be left behind? Would this not have been a grave mistake, especially since the probability of BR witnessing the murder is/was high?

What about the possibility that the plane was a getaway for all the Ramseys including BR and JBR?

I can't vote on the poll because I believe the prior assults were committed by Patsy and it was sexual abuse, not punishment.

Linda7NJ said:

I can't vote on the poll because I believe the prior assults were committed by Patsy and it was sexual abuse, not punishment.

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Oh, thank God, someone besides me said it.

eve314 said:

UKGuy,

First and foremost, your posts are excellent - incisive, analytical and critical. However, I am curious, you have persistently stated that JR and PR were possibly attempting a getaway without BR and JBR. Why? Or perhaps, why are you so convinced Burke would be left behind? Would this not have been a grave mistake, especially since the probability of BR witnessing the murder is/was high?

What about the possibility that the plane was a getaway for all the Ramseys including BR and JBR?

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eve314,
Thanks for your remarks.

you have persistently stated that JR and PR were possibly attempting a getaway without BR and JBR.

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Because this is what was attempted. Although Patsy was never mentioned explicitly, I'm assuming she would have left with John.

Not long after JonBenet was discovered John was overheard telling his pilot to prepare the plane for a flight to Atlanta. Reviewing this again, I have the impression John Ramsey knew what was going to occur, since shortly after having to cancel the flight, he and Patsy left their house and went to the Fernie's.

So at this point Burke is located at The White's house, JonBenet is still in the wine-cellar, and the parents are at the Fernies. If things had gone to plan and no detective had overheard John issuing his flight instructions. Its likely John and Patsy would have quietly left the Fernies and flew off, interstate, to Atlanta.

Maybe they would have stopped off at the White's to collect Burke, would Fleet White have complied with any of John's requests, after his second inspection of the wine-cellar?

Who knows, but shortly after finding the body of his dead daughter, John Ramsey was intent on leaving Colorado and JonBenet behind!

Would this not have been a grave mistake, especially since the probability of BR witnessing the murder is/was high?

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John Ramsey was fleeing Boulder its as simple as that, with his wealth and connections, he likely calculated, regardless of Burke's observations, he could avoid arrest.

What about the possibility that the plane was a getaway for all the Ramseys including BR and JBR?

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Patently not for JonBenet, only in as far, had she lived she would have flown that morning to Atlanta. This was John's response after executing his Plan B, if he had intended Burke to fly with him and Patsy, then he would have kept Burke close by, instead he was relocated to Fleet White's house.

So, speculating, it appears John and Patsy had intended to flee interstate to Atlanta at the first opportunity?



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I really don't feel they would have left without BR. Just because he was at the White's doesn't mean they wouldn't have gotten him before they went to the airport.
While I feel they wouldn't have wanted to leave JB in the basement to be found by cadaver dogs in a state of decomposition, they might have risked it in order to be out if the jurisdiction of the BPD. Having made a getaway, they couldn't have been forced to return or even speak to LE unless they a warrant for their arrest was issued, and even then they still didn't have to talk to police. The lawyers the Rs already had in place would have prevented it.

DeeDee249 said:

I really don't feel they would have left without BR. Just because he was at the White's doesn't mean they wouldn't have gotten him before they went to the airport.
While I feel they wouldn't have wanted to leave JB in the basement to be found by cadaver dogs in a state of decomposition, they might have risked it in order to be out if the jurisdiction of the BPD. Having made a getaway, they couldn't have been forced to return or even speak to LE unless they a warrant for their arrest was issued, and even then they still didn't have to talk to police. The lawyers the Rs already had in place would have prevented it.

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DeeDee249,
You could be right here. But if the plan was to fly with Burke why send him to the White's?

There would have been nothing to stop Burke flying onto Atlanta at a later date. I reckon John was playing safe here since, he was not certain about the outcome so he removed Burke from the equation.

JonBenet was intended to be left to decompose, John's flight instructions mandate this. I think at that point in time, John simply wanted to flee Boulder ASAP!

Plan A was fool the police into accepting that JonBenet had been abducted, when they had left, presumably to search for her, John and Patsy would fly interstate to Atlanta on urgent business matters!

Plan B was to use Pam to do a supermarket sweep through the house and remove the incriminating evidence, that would have been abandoned, if Plan A had been executed. All this was followed up with regular visits to church, a meeting with Lou Smit, who was close to retirement, and might need an additional stipend? So in the spirit of shared Christian values, John and Lou had a vision regarding a psychotic pedophile, who must have broken in and defiled JonBenet. Lou Smit reasoned so because John Ramsey was a Christian, went to church, and like him knew the power of prayer, so after praying together, Lou Smit went on to enthusiastically promote the Intruder Theory, even though there was no evidence to support his case!


So Plan B worked because of police collusion, how else can you explain the removal of forensic evidence from a homicide crime-scene? After filling the police car up with Ramsey artifacts Aunty Pam even treated herself at McDonalds. So appropriate for someone overweight.

(OT: I don't want to get in the middle of the whole "estate" debate, but an estate can refer to someone's assets/worth at any time)

An estate is the net worth of a person at any point in time. It is the sum of a person's assets - legal rights, interests and entitlements to property of any kind - less all liabilities at that time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estate_(law)

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BR was sent to the White's very early that morning- hours before JB was "found" and JR was caught trying to make his plane getaway. The reason for sending BR to the White's was to get him out of the house. There are a few reasons for wanting him out of the house: one was to keep LE away from him. Another was to keep him from doing or saying anything that might be incriminating. Another was to prevent any LE from observing his demeanor or wanting to question him, and then there was also the very understandable desire to not have him around when his sister's body was brought upstairs.
So sending him to the White's is a totally separate issue from planning the getaway. I still maintain they never intended to leave BR in Boulder when they fled Colorado. They would have picked him up at the Whites or had the Whites drive him to the airport.

It is my firm hope that as BR grows into adulthood and can put some distance between his parents influence and memory - he might reveal to someone memories he has, which may even be repressed at present. Perhaps if that happens, we may finally understand what really happened that night. BR might be our last hope of solving this perplexing case.

DeeDee249 said:

BR was sent to the White's very early that morning- hours before JB was "found" and JR was caught trying to make his plane getaway. The reason for sending BR to the White's was to get him out of the house. There are a few reasons for wanting him out of the house: one was to keep LE away from him. Another was to keep him from doing or saying anything that might be incriminating. Another was to prevent any LE from observing his demeanor or wanting to question him, and then there was also the very understandable desire to not have him around when his sister's body was brought upstairs.
So sending him to the White's is a totally separate issue from planning the getaway. I still maintain they never intended to leave BR in Boulder when they fled Colorado. They would have picked him up at the Whites or had the Whites drive him to the airport.

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DeeDee249,

So sending him to the White's is a totally separate issue from planning the getaway.

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Apparently so. But he was absent from the house when John phoned for his plane.

John likely removed Burke for all the above reasons. Now whether John or someone else found JonBenet, John would have factored this event into Plan A, so he had some intended course of action to undertake, on the discovery of JonBenet. Patently part of Plan A was to flee the state of Colorado, hence his instructions to his pilot.

So in executing Plan A John deliberately removed Burke, at this point John cannot predict if he will ever see Burke again. John might have been arrested never to leave the penal system again!

Since Plan A was not working out quite as intended, John at the first opportunity, and matching a staged homicide profile, went and found JonBenet.

His next move was to phone instructions to his pilot, so assuming Burke is innocent, John has nothing to gain by going over to the White's. I reckon given the seriousness and gravity of the situation John and Patsy would have left Colorado ASAP, without Burke, leaving JonBenet to decompose.

Now if they were willing to abandon JonBenet's body, they would probably have left Burke with the White's reasoning we can arrange for him to travel to Atlanta or Peru, at a later date.


John by removing Burke has already signaled he has a Plan A. And three parts of it have been executed e.g. 1. JonBenet hidden in the wine-cellar, 2. Patsy dialling 911 about the ransom note, and 3. Burke removed from any fallout.

Part four was nobody finds JonBenet, part five was the police leaving to search locally for JonBenet, part six John and Patsy flee Colorado.

So it is only parts four and five that vary if it had turned out as John had estimated, he would have left along with Patsy for Atlanta.

Given Fleet Whites suspicion regarding John and the discovery of JonBenet. Would he have simply handed Burke over, maybe, would John have told Fleet Hey we are bailing out of Colorado, and we would like Burke to come too or would he just tell Fleet We have some very important business matters to attend to in Atlanta, these are so important, we are just leaving JonBenet behind?

Of course not, going anywhere near Fleet White whilst attempting to flee is to risk Plan A failing at the final step.

In all probability John and Patsy fully intended to leave Burke behind just like we know they intended to abandon JonBenet to the process of decomposition.


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ShadyLadySleuth said:

It is my firm hope that as BR grows into adulthood and can put some distance between his parents influence and memory - he might reveal to someone memories he has, which may even be repressed at present. Perhaps if that happens, we may finally understand what really happened that night. BR might be our last hope of solving this perplexing case.

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ShadyLadySleuth,
If Burke played no part in JonBenet's death, then I reckon at some point, say after John has passed on, he will unburden himself?

Maybe not, he might be wary of the media spotlight, but there will come a time when he knows that he alone can offer closure to the death of JonBenet.


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There was no way JR would have never seen his son again. This is America- every killer gets out of prison someday. In this case, no one would have gone to prison for life anyway- that is reserved for First Degree Murder (premeditated) which this case was NOT. This would have ended up a plea bargain, even with a sexual assault charge added in (IMO, that charge would have been dropped anyway in the plea bargain).

They'd have never left BR behind and run the risk that LE would get to him or that he might do or say something that incriminates one of them.

If the case wasn't in Boulder, I think Patsy would've been charged with 2nd degree murder or manslaughter. Sometimes they go for the highest charge possible in these high profile cases. But since this is Boulder, land of the plea bargains, I agree that it would've gone that route.

DeeDee249 said:

There was no way JR would have never seen his son again. This is America- every killer gets out of prison someday. In this case, no one would have gone to prison for life anyway- that is reserved for First Degree Murder (premeditated) which this case was NOT. This would have ended up a plea bargain, even with a sexual assault charge added in (IMO, that charge would have been dropped anyway in the plea bargain).

They'd have never left BR behind and run the risk that LE would get to him or that he might do or say something that incriminates one of them.

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DeeDee249,
Your assumptions are based on Plan B. John Ramsey was not interested in plea bargains and certainly wished to avoid incarceration in a federal prison.

To that end I reckon he wanted to leave interstate for Atlanta ASAP. He intended to leave JonBenet to decompose, he was not interested any further in Burke or what he might or might not say. By fleeing Colorado John was telling the world I'm Guilty. Once out of Colorado and eventually the USofA John could not care less whatever Burke or Fleet had to say.

He was never coming back that was the intended conclusion to Plan A!


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UKGuy said:

DeeDee249,
Your assumptions are based on Plan B. John Ramsey was not interested in plea bargains and certainly wished to avoid incarceration in a federal prison.

To that end I reckon he wanted to leave interstate for Atlanta ASAP. He intended to leave JonBenet to decompose, he was not interested any further in Burke or what he might or might not say. By fleeing Colorado John was telling the world I'm Guilty. Once out of Colorado and eventually the USofA John could not care less whatever Burke or Fleet had to say.

He was never coming back that was the intended conclusion to Plan A!


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I guess we will just have to disagree on this one. Remember there is a MOM to add to the equation as well. With her daughter dead, there was no way Patsy would walk away forever from her 10 year old son. Neither would JR. It is one thing to want to get away from the jurisdiction of the BPD. It is quite another to abandon your surviving child forever to what? Live with a "friend"? No way. I don't know whether you are a parent, but a parent, even a guilty one, would not do this. Having gone through this trauma, then have his parents run away and dump him with friends, never to return, would have destroyed BR. I simply cannot accept JR would do this.
He was allegedly overheard making plans to fly "my remaining family" to Atlanta. I'd say that included his son.

How about the rest of you? What are your thoughts on this? Was JR planning to leave his son behind, possibly forever? Or was he planning to pick him up on his way out of town?

UKGuy said:

ShadyLadySleuth,
If Burke played no part in JonBenet's death, then I reckon at some point, say after John has passed on, he will unburden himself?

Maybe not, he might be wary of the media spotlight, but there will come a time when he knows that he alone can offer closure to the death of JonBenet.


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I don't think BR will be the hero some may wish he will be. He may be implicated in some way as well, and whether his father is gone will not make a difference to whether he will "tell all". And if he doesn't really KNOW exactly what happened, he won't want to open that can of worms again. And his lawyers will strongly advise against it.

DeeDee249 said:

I guess we will just have to disagree on this one. Remember there is a MOM to add to the equation as well. With her daughter dead, there was no way Patsy would walk away forever from her 10 year old son. Neither would JR. It is one thing to want to get away from the jurisdiction of the BPD. It is quite another to abandon your surviving child forever to what? Live with a "friend"? No way. I don't know whether you are a parent, but a parent, even a guilty one, would not do this. Having gone through this trauma, then have his parents run away and dump him with friends, never to return, would have destroyed BR. I simply cannot accept JR would do this.
He was allegedly overheard making plans to fly "my remaining family" to Atlanta. I'd say that included his son.

How about the rest of you? What are your thoughts on this? Was JR planning to leave his son behind, possibly forever? Or was he planning to pick him up on his way out of town?

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DeeDee249,
Its not really about disagreeing with you, personally. Its simply about the evidence. You have the luxury of hindsight, a perfect science. Also I did not say he was abandoning Burke. My interpretation of the evidence is that John and Patsy intended to flee Colorado ASAP. This is what the crime-scene staging was all about, they were buying time, they thought they might be arrested and not bailed, so they both intended to leave Boulder. If John and Patsy thought they could take Burke with them then why bother handing him over to Fleet White?

I reckon you are overstating your case. We all know what Patsy was capable off, and walking away from JonBenet's body was likely easier than asphyxiating her with the garrote. So knowing Burke was in safe hands, Patsy would have no problem flying off to Atlanta. She could always phone him from there.

If Patsy had stayed behind while John alone flew to Atlanta what would that look like?

The seriousness of the situation mandated that John and Patsy flee Colorado, thats what all the staging is for. They did not know that there would be a Plan B invoked. They were executing Plan A, simply to avoid arrest, one or both of them thought they might face a homicide charge.

The evidence tells you John intended to flee Colorado, I doubt whether he would risk telegraphing his intentions by detouring to pick up Burke, when he could simply tell Fleet White to put Burke on later flight.

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DeeDee249 said:

I don't think BR will be the hero some may wish he will be. He may be implicated in some way as well, and whether his father is gone will not make a difference to whether he will "tell all". And if he doesn't really KNOW exactly what happened, he won't want to open that can of worms again. And his lawyers will strongly advise against it.

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DeeDee249,
I doubt he would ever tell all. But he might do some pre-arranged documentary interview where he reveals some crucial evidence that clears himself, with his parents gone, he knows he is the only person left that can shed light on the case.

And if he doesn't really KNOW exactly what happened, he won't want to open that can of worms again. And his lawyers will strongly advise against it.

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If he does not know, then I reckon its even more probable we will be hearing from him.



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DeeDee249 said:

How about the rest of you? What are your thoughts on this? Was JR planning to leave his son behind, possibly forever?

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No way,not JR,maybe PR yes.

Or was he planning to pick him up on his way out of town?

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maybe he didn't even think so far.him and FW were still close buddies otherwise they wouldn't have called him over that morning,they trusted FW,so maybe they thought BR is safe for NOW,we'll see how we deal with this later, now we got more important issues to deal with (cops arriving,JB has to be found).