Stranger Abduction Theories #2

My daughter (in third grade) stayed for an after-school program on the days that I worked. It was understood that once there, she could only leave with a parent or person on the (very short) list & a note saying X person (from the list) would be picking her up that day.

One day I showed up to pick her up - she was not there, yet she was signed in and not signed out. One of the attendants thought the last time she had seen her was when her school buddy was picked up by her father, over an hour earlier. This was not a friend of mine, nor someone I would have allowed her to leave with...

No one saw a thing, including the school secretary whose office (window and open door) they walked by when leaving the school. This was a fairly quiet time of day, but before most staff would have gone home.

Long story short, I found her at the friends house, yes; dad took her too and admitted he didn't sign her out because he knew she wasn't allowed to leave with him. (WTH? - I know)

Had the one attendant (out of 5 or so on duty) not noticed that she didn't see my daughter again after her friend left, I would have had no idea where to start looking.

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What if Terri had him come out to the car for something - then drove off before making sure Kyron was safely back near the drop off point, at the school - (out of he parking lot)?

What if Kyron followed Terri without her knowledge (or with her ignoring him) and she drove off, leaving him standing there?

What if Terri prearranged to have someone in the parking lot, abduct Kyron?

Yes, it is possible this was a stranger abduction; do I believe it was? No.

GrainneDhu said:

Yes, the presence of Wanda Barzee may have made a difference but there were times when Mitchell left her behind and took Smart with him and no one really suspected.

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Smart wore a veil, and after being recognized by LE in the library had to cover her eyes too - She could have been a teen ager or a 60 year old woman. Hiding in plain sight but well disguised.

carbuff said:

Yes, good point. I agree most people would assume an angry screaming child being marched out of a public place with an adult was a misbehaving child being removed for disciplinary reasons -- and at least 999 times out of a thousand, they're going to be right. Something has to be really out of the ordinary before people notice it.

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BBM - an angry, screaming child, at least should have rang some bells - caused someone to say "Hey! I saw something!" after the fact. Drawn some attention to what the adult looked like, even if s/he appeared to fit in at the time. KWIM?

Wow if that were at my school, heads would have rolled!! We are in an inner city and a big school (K-4) 5 of each grade everything is by the book. A busy school and we all know the rules!!!!

LCoastMom said:

<respectfully snipped>
an angry, screaming child, at least should have rang some bells - caused someone to say "Hey! I saw something!" after the fact. Drawn some attention to what the adult looked like, even if s/he appeared to fit in at the time. KWIM?

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You would hope so, but it didn't appear to be the case. People are just so absorbed in themselves.

If it was a stranger abduction I think we probably don't have the whole story about when Kyron was last seen. If Terri is telling the truth that she left Kyron in the hallway a short distance from his classroom it seems unlikely to me that a suitably placed perp would happen to be there and able to grab him unnoticed within the window of a few seconds that it would have taken Kyron to walk to his classroom. I wonder if Terri saw any other people in that hallway who could have been the perp or who could have witnessed it. It's not impossible but it seems improbable to me, the perp got extremely lucky. I suppose Terri could have taken the photo and left almost straight away to go shopping at the FM but was embarrassed or afraid to admit that she left Kyron to his own devices. It might explain some of the behavior that was taken as a sign of guilt.

It might have been easier for a complete stranger or an acquaintance grooming Kyron to find opportunities to grab him later when the group was touring the fair (easy enough for one child to wander from the group or stay a few feet behind) but in that case the story about Terri being the last adult to see Kyron would appear to be false since if Kyron got to his classroom and started the tour he would have been seen by others.

ami said:

Okay, cool. I thought they brought dogs in to search the day Kyron was abducted.

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They did--police K9s.

But it was still more than eight hours after Kyron was last seen in an environment with hordes of people moving around. The parking lot and the halls would not be good environments for trailing one specific person's scent.

My best guess is that the first dogs on the scene were used to make sure that Kyron was not inside the school or on the grounds nearby. Rather than being trained to take Kyron's scent and alert only on Kyron, these would be dogs that were trained to alert on any living human being. They'd do a search by confining everyone in the building to one single area and then checking all the other areas.

Later that evening, as they managed to get in contact with SAR personnel, they'd bring in dogs trained to take one specific person's scent and indicate only on that scent. Unfortunately, time is not on the side of scentwork (these are often called trailing dogs).

LMax said:

http://southeastportland.katu.com/content/green-van-sought-connection-abduction-attempt
PORTLAND, Ore. - Police are on the lookout for a green van they believe was involved in the attempted abduction of an 8-year-old boy.
According to police, someone in a van allegedly tried to grab a young boy while he was walking near the intersection of Southeast Gladstone Street and Gladstone Drive, which is near Southeast 151st at the base of Powell Butte.

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Hmmmm.Have you read the comments on this article?They are interesting.I don't know what to think.I guess he could have taken his ski mask off.

I am a little curious how the 8-yr old got such complete descriptions...and I can't find the story on kgw or the oregon live site, are they not reporting the green van incident, I wonder...?

teacher 3 said:

Wow if that were at my school, heads would have rolled!! We are in an inner city and a big school (K-4) 5 of each grade everything is by the book. A busy school and we all know the rules!!!!

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I'm glad to know some schools play by the rules - they knew them too and were very relieved to find out she was OK, but to my knowledge - no one was disciplined. I think that day I was just so relieved that someone knew something and that she was OK that I probably didn't make as big a stink as I should have.

carbuff said:

You would hope so, but it didn't appear to be the case. People are just so absorbed in themselves.

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I make a point to look at people who have a screaming child - if the adult is behaving appropriately I give them an understanding smile - If the adult is not acting like an adult, I have a tendency to acknowledge that too - no smile included.


I hope if I ever witness a crime (unknowingly at the time) something will click when it needs to.

Dec. 4 http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

They must look at all potential theories: They suspect Kyron's stepmother's involvement, but did she pass the boy off to someone? Could the boy have been taken along the I-5 corridor and out of the country? They also must identify and interview child predators and sex offenders living in the area.

"They're a lot further along," Staton said. "They started out with a long laundry list....They've gradually been able to eliminate people, who they can say are absolutely not involved. This investigation has narrowed it down significantly."


Six months later, this sounds to me like they are still in the process of interviewing and clearing known SO's in the area. I thought they'd completed that long ago by the intense focus being put on TH, but I'm taking this as not. All the more reason for us to keep our eyes open to stranger abduction as well. IMO

Billylee said:

Dec. 4 http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

They must look at all potential theories: They suspect Kyron's stepmother's involvement, but did she pass the boy off to someone? Could the boy have been taken along the I-5 corridor and out of the country? They also must identify and interview child predators and sex offenders living in the area.

"They're a lot further along," Staton said. "They started out with a long laundry list....They've gradually been able to eliminate people, who they can say are absolutely not involved. This investigation has narrowed it down significantly."


Six months later, this sounds to me like they are still in the process of interviewing and clearing known SO's in the area. I thought they'd completed that long ago by the intense focus being put on TH, but I'm taking this as not. All the more reason for us to keep our eyes open to stranger abduction as well. IMO

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BBM

What?!?! Have they put all their eggs in the "Terri Did It" basket? That sentence makes me sick to my stomach.

How long was the sign outside announcing an "Open House" on June 4th?

nonfictionrocks said:

BBM

What?!?! Have they put all their eggs in the "Terri Did It" basket? That sentence makes me sick to my stomach.

How long was the sign outside announcing an "Open House" on June 4th?

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That wording makes it sound like they don't even know whether any of the people connected with the school might have a record as an SO.

:sick: :furious:

Billylee said:

Dec. 4 http://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2010/12/multnomah_county_sheriff_dan_s_2.html

They must look at all potential theories: They suspect Kyron's stepmother's involvement, but did she pass the boy off to someone? Could the boy have been taken along the I-5 corridor and out of the country? They also must identify and interview child predators and sex offenders living in the area.

"They're a lot further along," Staton said. "They started out with a long laundry list....They've gradually been able to eliminate people, who they can say are absolutely not involved. This investigation has narrowed it down significantly."


Six months later, this sounds to me like they are still in the process of interviewing and clearing known SO's in the area. I thought they'd completed that long ago by the intense focus being put on TH, but I'm taking this as not. All the more reason for us to keep our eyes open to stranger abduction as well. IMO

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nonfictionrocks said:

BBM

What?!?! Have they put all their eggs in the "Terri Did It" basket? That sentence makes me sick to my stomach.

How long was the sign outside announcing an "Open House" on June 4th?

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IMO, this was a rather poorly written article, and the writer was simply reiterating all of the avenues of inquiry the task force had to follow from the outset. I wouldn't take the author's poor descriptive skills that literally. Directly after that vague paragraph Staton is quoted as saying "They're a lot further along. They started out with a long laundry list. ... They've gradually been able to eliminate people who they can say are absolutely not involved. This investigation has narrowed it down significantly." IMO the laundry list they're "further along on" was to follow the leads such as Terri, the sex offenders, etc.

In any case, the FBI CARD team was on site to help local LE in this investigation, and :

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/investigate/vc_majorthefts/cac/card/card

"The CARD Teams are designed to deploy teams of 4-6 experienced personnel to provide on-the-ground investigative, technical, and resource assistance to state and local law enforcement. The CARD Teams consist of Crimes Against Children investigators who have in-depth experience in child abduction cases. The nationwide CARD Team consists of 48 members, with two full teams serving each region of the country. They work closely with FBI Behavioral Analysis Unit representatives, National Center for the Analysis of Violent Crime Coordinators, and Crimes Against Children Coordinators.

In addition to their unique expertise, CARD Teams are capable of quickly establishing an on-site command post to centralize investigative efforts and operations. Other assets they bring to the table include a new mapping tool to identify and locate registered sex offenders in the area, national and international lead coverage, and the Child Abduction Response Plan to guide investigative efforts.

CARD Teams are primarily involved in non-family child abductions, ransom child abductions, and mysterious disappearances of children.They work with state and local law enforcement to protect and save the lives of innocent children."

I was talking to my husband about the latest developments in Kyron's disappearance and he gave me a new idea.

My current theory is that TMH did it, that it was not premeditated, that it was the result of an accident, she panicked, hid the body by placing it in one of the rivers and tried to carry on as usual. I'm not wedded to the theory but it seems to me to explain what happened without the necessity of bringing in other elements.

My husband asked me "why couldn't that apply to anyone else who was present at the school?"

I started thinking. What if? For instance, what if Baby K really was acting cranky that morning, so TMH decided to bag picking up Kyron's exhibit and leave early. She asked Kyron to run out to the truck to get something. She goes out, gets Baby K strapped in, waits for Kyron with an increasingly fretful baby, then finally gets angry and just leaves, assuming that Kyron had simply forgotten.

Kyron is delayed in the school, where he has the "cool electric project" conversation, maybe even gives in to temptation to take a quick peek. Then he heads out to the parking lot and someone leaving accidentally hits him with their car.

This person grabs Kyron and speeds off with him intending to go to an ER. But within a few minutes, it becomes clear that Kyron is dead. This person panics for some reason such as: has an outstanding warrant, is in a custody battle for their own children, is an undocumented worker, is an alcoholic who'd already had a nip that morning, whatever.

They decide to hide Kyron's body and carry on as if nothing had happened.

At the end of the school day, TMH assumed Kyron would be on the bus as usual because she had no idea of what happened. When it became clear that Kyron had disappeared, she was felt ashamed and guilty about her decision to just leave without waiting for Kyron that morning. She, like everyone else (including LE), assumed that it was a case of a lost child, not an abducted or murdered child. One little lie of omission didn't seem like that big of a deal.

There's an example of this type of thinking in the Michele Dorr case. She was six years old and her father was fighting her mother for visitation. During a visit with him, he filled a wading pool for her, then went inside to watch the Indy 500. At the end of the race, he discovered she was missing. He was ashamed of not having checked on her sooner, so he told LE he had checked on her around 2:10 pm. Her murderer, Haddon Clark, nearly got away with it because that alleged sighting made the timeline for a crime impossibly tight (he had clocked in at work at 2:45 pm).

As the days went on TMH felt more and more guilty but also felt trapped into maintaining her lie of omission for fear of looking even more guilty.

I think this is all far fetched but just barely within the realm of possibility. What I like about this theory is that it explains much of the way TMH has acted since Kyron disappeared.

The normal stumbling block of "why didn't anyone see anything?" does not seem to me to apply since no one apparently saw anything probative, no matter who did it.

GrainneDhu said:

I was talking to my husband about the latest developments in Kyron's disappearance and he gave me a new idea.

My current theory is that TMH did it, that it was not premeditated, that it was the result of an accident, she panicked, hid the body by placing it in one of the rivers and tried to carry on as usual. I'm not wedded to the theory but it seems to me to explain what happened without the necessity of bringing in other elements.

My husband asked me "why couldn't that apply to anyone else who was present at the school?"

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I think your husband has the kind of mind needed for difficult cases like this.

While I am still completely lost on what I think happened - as in, I have NO idea that really sticks with me - I hadn't yet entertained this one. It's as logical as a lot of the others we've discussed.

And if this is what happened, that person had a lot more time than Terri to decide what to do.

Terri Horman is so "over the top" that an abduction theory is not possible. An accomplice...yes.

This thread is about stranger abduction theories, not TH did it/didn't do it theories.

Get back on track.

Thorough searching of the school building would prove that Kyron wasn't hidden there instead of relying on dog scents, and his smell should be on the grounds. It's off the grounds, a road leading away from the usual one, or even the areas between the home and school that dogs should have alerted. If they didn't, then he did not wander off, walk off on foot with an abductor, nor was he driven away in the opposite direction of the usual bus route. The scent should have still been in those areas and could prove that Kyron was taken towards home if nothing was found. Since Kyron was not usually picked up from school or brought, and did not walk then his scent should only have been in certain areas and I'd think the ones alerted to would have been the freshest ones.

angelmom said:

I think your husband has the kind of mind needed for difficult cases like this.

While I am still completely lost on what I think happened - as in, I have NO idea that really sticks with me - I hadn't yet entertained this one. It's as logical as a lot of the others we've discussed.

And if this is what happened, that person had a lot more time than Terri to decide what to do.

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That's the main thing that keeps me wondering if TMH really did it: her timeline, so far as is known at this point, does not seem to leave enough time to effectively dispose of a body.

The main thing that makes me doubt the accomplice theory is that any secret known to more than one person tends not to be a secret fairly rapidly. Plus it is difficult for me to see what an accomplice would get out of helping with such a risky endeavour.

Yes, there is human trafficking but the flow of humans trafficked tends to be towards the US rather than away from it (traffickers go where the demand and money are).

I dunno, this is such a baffling case.

txsvicki said:

Thorough searching of the school building would prove that Kyron wasn't hidden there instead of relying on dog scents, and his smell should be on the grounds. It's off the grounds, a road leading away from the usual one, or even the areas between the home and school that dogs should have alerted. If they didn't, then he did not wander off, walk off on foot with an abductor, nor was he driven away in the opposite direction of the usual bus route. The scent should have still been in those areas and could prove that Kyron was taken towards home if nothing was found. Since Kyron was not usually picked up from school or brought, and did not walk then his scent should only have been in certain areas and I'd think the ones alerted to would have been the freshest ones.

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Unfortunately, if a well trained tracking/trailing dog does not indicate on scent, all you really know is that the dog did not indicate. The subject could have been in that place or nowhere near it but you can't use a well trained dog's lack of indication to say which option is correct.

Tracking along roadsides is particularly difficult because the exhaust fumes suppress scenting ability. Most handlers called out for a search prefer to take their dog away from other vehicles for about 15 minutes or so to give the dog a chance to eliminate and also recover optimal scenting ability after being confined to a vehicle.

Well trained dogs are not reliable at tracking people who are in vehicles. There are too many variables and a great deal of testing by LE and the military has completely failed to show any reliability at all for that particular task.

I tend to agree that if Kyron had walked away from school property on foot that his scent would have been picked up by dogs but again, there are too many variables to say for sure.

That day has been described by locals as drizzly with intermittent periods of rain. While high humidity can help preserve scent, rainfall can obscure it.

Plus, the first dogs weren't on the scene for a good 8 hours or so after Kyron was last seen. The police were called at 3:46 pm and although they turned out immediately, the time of day meant traffic was quite heavy, which led to a substantial delay in K9 handlers arriving on the scene.

So at this point, all we really know is that if trained dogs failed to indicate, they failed to indicate. That fact does not further our knowledge of Kyron's movements at all.