NY NY - Sylvia Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #4

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GoingByMyGut said:
Every time we bump into this kind of thing -- the BBM above, or that it doesn't seem like EL suspected the BF/F -- I wonder, did EL know something ... did she have a reason not to do these things? I do think she may have, even if she was wrong. How unjust would it be, for instance, if based on what was going on at home, SL had threatened to leave home before she disappeared -- but met foul play instead -- leaving EL thinking SL must have followed through, when instead she needed to be found?

Although, with my grandfather's disappearance, I'm told everyone wondered the same thing about my grandmother. When my parents got married (about 30 years after my GF's disappearance), they said my GM passed out when a red-headed man walked into the reception (my GF was a full-Irish redhead). Supposedly that finally convinced everyone that she didn't know what happened to him. Maybe it's just natural to suspect the wife/mother.
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BBM-I wondered about this, too. How awful!
 
rosemadderlake said:
Bbm: Done. We'll see what she says.
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Quoting myself -no word back from Namus, yet... I don't want to bug them too much but maybe no response is the answer?

Below is my email: GBMG - I lifted and included the line from your post which I thought was relevant. ..."Maybe so far it hasn't been an issue..."

I think Epiphany's assessment is correct - that if an unidentified person is found with perfect teeth, or near to, then it would be explored further and might find out there are indeed records available. Also, perfect teeth are uncommon and this is one of Sylvia's most distinguishing features/factors.

If anyone wants to contact Namus about this, please feel free to do so. My thoughts are to wait in light of the fact I heard back so quickly regarding ruling out the UID last week.


Email to Namus.
Is it possible for us to know whether Sylvia's dental records are available to LE, Namus? It says "currently not available" on Namus. Does that mean her dental records can be obtained should a UID be found with good teeth?

Maybe so far it hasn't been an issue because the UIDs she's been compared to had far from perfect teeth. Or, maybe the description of her teeth from the Lwowski family is good enough to base an opinion? If no dental records are available would the only method of ID be through DNA?

I appreciate your help.
 
I wish the article the SI Advance did on her last year would have generated some leads.
I had high hopes.
 
I was hopeful, too. Maybe if this had been done years ago...but, of course, that would have depended on somebody seeing something. Suppose things didn't go down like BF/F said? No witnesses if she got out of the car in a secluded place, he drove away, and she ran into a "bad guy", for example.
 
Jmoose said:
I was hopeful, too. Maybe if this had been done years ago...but, of course, that would have depended on somebody seeing something. Suppose things didn't go down like BF/F said? No witnesses if she got out of the car in a secluded place, he drove away, and she ran into a "bad guy", for example.
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I think it's possible, even if things went just the way he said, that what people were able to see at the mall was not so out of the ordinary for a busy Saturday evening that it would be memorable: An attractively dressed girl jumping out of a car and running to a bus stop (we don't know what kind of emotion she wore on her face). Or, if it happened early in the date, there may be another reason for no witnesses: The parking lot may not have been that crowded yet. What I wish there were witnesses for is what may have happened later in the evening -- wherever and however it happened. But if wishes were fishes, we'd all be casting nets ...
 
GoingByMyGut said:
I think it's possible, even if things went just the way he said, that what people were able to see at the mall was not so out of the ordinary for a busy Saturday evening that it would be memorable: An attractively dressed girl jumping out of a car and running to a bus stop (we don't know what kind of emotion she wore on her face). Or, if it happened early in the date, there may be another reason for no witnesses: The parking lot may not have been that crowded yet. What I wish there were witnesses for is what may have happened later in the evening -- wherever and however it happened. But if wishes were fishes, we'd all be casting nets ...
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Yes, there are many reasons why there were no witnesses. How often do we drive in our cars, not looking particularly attentively at a pedestrian walking with purpose on the side of the road? I know I do it all the time because I'm trying to watch where I'm going. Sylvia could absolutely have hopped out of the car and walked toward the bus stop, without being noticed-and without any publicity at the time, who'd remember 38 years later that they saw her? A lack of a witness doesn't tell us anything at this point, unfortunately. I know that the fiance was upset, but why would he leave her there? It's so...unmannerly and ignorant.
 
Jmoose said:
Yes, there are many reasons why there were no witnesses. How often do we drive in our cars, not looking particularly attentively at a pedestrian walking with purpose on the side of the road? I know I do it all the time because I'm trying to watch where I'm going. Sylvia could absolutely have hopped out of the car and walked toward the bus stop, without being noticed-and without any publicity at the time, who'd remember 38 years later that they saw her? A lack of a witness doesn't tell us anything at this point, unfortunately. I know that the fiance was upset, but why would he leave her there? It's so...unmannerly and ignorant.
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We expect so much of guys ... he was young too. And yes, upset. SL could have made it known she wanted to be left alone, and if she demanded that, could pursuing her have been deemed aggressive? That said, in spite of everything we've been told, this is why I lean toward this part of the date happening relatively early in the evening, when it was still light. Under those circumstances, it would have been a setting SL could easily handle on her own, right? He appears to have hung around long enough to know she was waiting for a bus. Also, depending on where she jumped out, could he have stopped? pulled over? or did he have to keep driving? I don't think it's his responsibility alone, but JMO.
 
GoingByMyGut said:
We expect so much of guys ... he was young too. And yes, upset. SL could have made it known she wanted to be left alone, and if she demanded that, could pursuing her have been deemed aggressive? That said, in spite of everything we've been told, this is why I lean toward this part of the date happening relatively early in the evening, when it was still light. Under those circumstances, it would have been a setting SL could easily handle on her own, right? He appears to have hung around long enough to know she was waiting for a bus. Also, depending on where she jumped out, could he have stopped? pulled over? or did he have to keep driving? I don't think it's his responsibility alone, but JMO.
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I do wonder if the guilt of letting Sylvia out of the car (making the assumption that this is what happened) has driven the attitude at the time? I think that by itself could have shut off all communication between him and any of the people associated with Sylvia. Could you imagine living with it?
 
GoingByMyGut said:
We expect so much of guys ... he was young too. And yes, upset. SL could have made it known she wanted to be left alone, and if she demanded that, could pursuing her have been deemed aggressive? That said, in spite of everything we've been told, this is why I lean toward this part of the date happening relatively early in the evening, when it was still light. Under those circumstances, it would have been a setting SL could easily handle on her own, right? He appears to have hung around long enough to know she was waiting for a bus. Also, depending on where she jumped out, could he have stopped? pulled over? or did he have to keep driving? I don't think it's his responsibility alone, but JMO.
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BBM-I see that, but why would he wait so long to go to MMQC's house, and to the Lwowskis. I still think it happened later, and this is why I see him as a lout.
 
I see this happening later in the evening, unfortunately there is no way of knowing.
 
Mom who never came home now rests in Staten Island cemetery - Cold Case Investigations

This whole thing with Hart Island is really mind boggling. I sometimes wonder if something like this could have happened to Sylvia.


"Mrs. Rubin's husband filed a missing person report with Brooklyn's 72nd Precinct police stationhouse, a report that noted Mrs. Rubin had suffered a nervous breakdown six months before. But nobody from the precinct notified the family when they closed the case after police found Ann Rubin's body following her suicide on May 24, 1988, six days after she disappeared.

"Nor did police bother to tell the dead woman's family when she was buried at Potter's Field after she was identified by fingerprints within the jurisdiction of the 62nd Precinct."

"Several weeks later, a police sergeant told her that before investigators ID'd her mother, they had mistaken Ann Rubin for a homeless woman.
The medical examiner's records, the death certificate and the Social Security numbers were never connected, so no one knew Ann Rubin had died. The sergeant said Mrs. Rubin was sent to Potter's Field because the case had been closed, the body unclaimed."
 
skeet said:
Mom who never came home now rests in Staten Island cemetery - Cold Case Investigations

This whole thing with Hart Island is really mind boggling. I sometimes wonder if something like this could have happened to Sylvia.


"Mrs. Rubin's husband filed a missing person report with Brooklyn's 72nd Precinct police stationhouse, a report that noted Mrs. Rubin had suffered a nervous breakdown six months before. But nobody from the precinct notified the family when they closed the case after police found Ann Rubin's body following her suicide on May 24, 1988, six days after she disappeared.

"Nor did police bother to tell the dead woman's family when she was buried at Potter's Field after she was identified by fingerprints within the jurisdiction of the 62nd Precinct."

"Several weeks later, a police sergeant told her that before investigators ID'd her mother, they had mistaken Ann Rubin for a homeless woman.
The medical examiner's records, the death certificate and the Social Security numbers were never connected, so no one knew Ann Rubin had died. The sergeant said Mrs. Rubin was sent to Potter's Field because the case had been closed, the body unclaimed."
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Probably happened to lots of people-a combination of a lack of DNA technology at the time, plus laziness on the part of personnel equaling heartbreaking waits of decades for the families. This makes me mad.
 
The times, they might be changing – from no access to public access on Hart Island.

New York Observer: Changing of the Guard? City Island Residents Consider a Park in Nearby Potter’s Field
http://observer.com/2014/02/changin...ents-consider-a-park-in-nearby-potters-field/


Elizabeth Crowley, NYC Council, Chairperson: Committee on Fire and Criminal Justice Services
03.12.14 Reintroduced Legislation:

“A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the city of New York, in relation to a transfer of jurisdiction over Hart Island from the department of corrections to the department of parks and recreation.”

http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/Leg...006&GUID=8424F5DC-C091-43B4-9E94-9CB4E3764AAC
 
Quoted from Nola’s post #208, thread #3, Pg. 9
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212322&page=9

“Snipped from NY Department of Police database...

On September 11, 2001, a skull was found at a demolition site at 227 Park Avenue, East Orange, Essex County, New Jersey. Unknown date/year of death. Estimated year of birth would be off ('61-'81 compared to 1953); but age at death is 17-22. This location is about 35 minutes from Staten Island.
http://www.njsp.org/miss/ui_essex_u200003442.html


ETA: I received an e-mail back from NY State Police regarding my inquiry into their Jane Doe...

this possible match has been previously submitted and is awaiting processing of DNA samples to make a determination.

thank you for your interest.
S/Inv Kim Law, NYS ViCAP

This makes me think some sort of investigation work continues on Sylvia's case -- of course it could be that state LE initiated the comparison and not the local agency.”
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BBMs: This UID was brought up and posted here last July (2013) but submitted for testing, when (?). I am assuming it may have been a rule out--or could DNA testing be seriously backlogged?

Some MP pages have a list of rule outs. Wonder how that works?
 
rosemadderlake said:
The times, they might be changing – from no access to public access on Hart Island.

New York Observer: Changing of the Guard? City Island Residents Consider a Park in Nearby Potter’s Field
http://observer.com/2014/02/changin...ents-consider-a-park-in-nearby-potters-field/

Elizabeth Crowley, NYC Council, Chairperson: Committee on Fire and Criminal Justice Services
03.12.14 Reintroduced Legislation:

“A Local Law to amend the administrative code of the city of New York, in relation to a transfer of jurisdiction over Hart Island from the department of corrections to the department of parks and recreation.”

http://legistar.council.nyc.gov/Leg...006&GUID=8424F5DC-C091-43B4-9E94-9CB4E3764AAC
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Rose, this is interesting -- thanks! I have both SL and my GF in mind when I read about Hart Island. But as intriguing as it is to me as a potential solution for what happened to them, it seems like another dead end for so many UIDs. Did any of you see the "top comment" posted at the bottom of the page by a woman named M who is searching for her sister? Here are two quotes from that comment, the second of which speaks to the dead end:

Records of each burial:
"There is a death certificate. There is an ME report. And there's a burial report. 3 pieces of paper. 3 opportunities for misinformation."​

Her search of those records for her sister:
"If you don't have identification on you for whatever reason, and you die, you are buried with the rest of the unknowns. ... I can't search Hart Island's known record- because she would have been one of the unknowns. So they would have been laid to rest as a Doe."​

Presumably photographs are not part of the record for each body buried? This would be so important for a UID. We have speculated about a watery end for SL, as my family has for my GF. If bodies are discovered after being in the water for a period of time, perhaps photographs are of little help? I wonder how detailed the ME reports are. For a UID, you would have to search the Hart Island Does by date range I suppose, and eliminate using whatever details that could be obtained at the time, based on the condition of the body -- in much the way NamUs allows us to do. Except that the sheer volume of records would be incredible (and paper), access is not possible, and they have not yet even reached SL's decade, never mind my GF's.

Maybe it would be ideal if those responsible for Hart Island found a way to move the burial records -- everything they have on each interment -- to NamUs?

M's point, quoted above by me, about opportunities for misinformation, is now ringing in my ears.
 
rosemadderlake said:
Quoted from Nola’s post #208, thread #3, Pg. 9
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=212322&page=9




BBMs: This UID was brought up and posted here last July (2013) but submitted for testing, when (?). I am assuming it may have been a rule out--or could DNA testing be seriously backlogged?

Some MP pages have a list of rule outs. Wonder how that works?
Click to expand...

I'm assuming that the skull had no teeth-because if the teeth were present, they'd be able to compare to what is known about Sylvia's teeth. Or has she been definitively ruled out?
 
I just went to the New Jersey State Police site, where it states that x-rays and dental records are available for the skull found 9/11/2001. So if there are, in fact, dental records for Sylvia, then she must have been ruled out by now.
 
Jmoose said:
I just went to the New Jersey State Police site, where it states that x-rays and dental records are available for the skull found 9/11/2001. So if there are, in fact, dental records for Sylvia, then she must have been ruled out by now.
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May have been ruled out. If so, they should update.

Here are previous posts linking to dental info about Irondequoit Jane Doe:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3
 
Jmoose said:
I just went to the New Jersey State Police site, where it states that x-rays and dental records are available for the skull found 9/11/2001. So if there are, in fact, dental records for Sylvia, then she must have been ruled out by now.
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epiphany said:
May have been ruled out. If so, they should update.

Here are previous posts linking to dental info about Irondequoit Jane Doe:

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - NY NY - Sylvia Alice Lwowski, 22, Staten Island, 6 Sept 1975 - #3
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Ok, so-Sylvia has not been said to have been ruled out as Irondequoit Jane Doe, even though the dentals don't seem to match (as far as we know from the two VIs description of Sylvia's teeth). She must have been,though-Why don't they update? Sylvia has been submitted as a possibility at least once, and maybe more than once-I realize that it's a long process, but if they'd listed her as a rule-out on the Namus site, it would really be helpful so we (and others) won't spin our wheels looking at this possibility.
 
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