Who molested/abused Jonbenet?

who molested/abused JB?

  • JR

    Votes: 180 27.1%

  • BR

    Votes: 203 30.6%

  • JAR

    Votes: 28 4.2%

  • a close family friend

    Votes: 41 6.2%

  • a stranger/stalker a la JMK

    Votes: 20 3.0%

  • PR-it wasn't sexual abuse,it was corporal punishment

    Votes: 89 13.4%

  • she wasn't previously abused/molested

    Votes: 103 15.5%
  • Total voters
    664

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Kdube said:
Wasn't JBs brother an Eagle Scout?
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IIRC, Burke was in Scouting, but at age 9 he would have been far too young to be an Eagle Scout. That's a rank usually obtained in the teen years by Scouts.

As for JAR, don't know. Why do you wonder? Because of the knots? It was reported Burke did have knowledge of knots. And JAR was a climber, so also would have had knowledge of knots, as did JR, FW, and probably several other people that were investigated.
 
chlban said:
Well, who indeed? I have to confess that as long as I have been a firm RDI-which is coming up ono 17 years of course- I have managed to avoid this subject. I tend to PDI, clinging to the Steve Thomas theory or a close variation of it. However, based on what I have read today about the release of the indictment it appears the sexual assault will have to be front and center whether I like it or not.

I find myself now thinking it was Burke, but then why would both John and Patsy be charged with child abuse?

Maybe it's some weird hang up I have, but I have never really embraced the idea that JR was sexually abusing JR. Certainly not out of any respect for the man, it is likely my own hang up. I am not sure why this is so difficult for me to accept when I could always accept that Patsy was crazy/angry enough to crack here "beloved" daughters head open.

Maybe because as awful as the head crack is, it could still be fundamentally accidental? But abusing a 6 year old child? Nothing accidental about that is there?

Unless it was actually Burke. Then it wouldn't be "accidental" but somehow more acceptable than her own father. So, maybe acceptable isn't the right word, but less heinous becuase he was a child.

But again, that doesn't explain why both P and J would be charged with child abuse?

I have a feeling this awful case is going to get even worse if JR is not successfull in blockig this release.

The only thing I can hope for is that everyone will finally see him for the monster he just may prove to be.
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You and I think a lot alike because I lean way towards PR in an uncontrollable rage...but...how does a rage explain building and then using the garrote? Ever since it came out that the grand jury voted to indict both Rs for the same thing, I've been wondering what they saw that pointed to JR as being guilty. JB showed some classic signs of sexual abuse, and really, when I think about it, I don't think PR's 'corporal cleaning' would cause JB to soil herself and wet the bed...but I do think a mother might vigorously clean a molested daughter and use a douche. Also, I have a hard time imagining BR being able to get away with the type of long term molestation that would cause JB's issues- because he was a little kid too. A lot of the things JR has said, are just plain weird. All in all, I liked PR a lot more than him, which is sad to say considering I think she murdered her daughter. There was a theory, (can't remember whose), that PR caught JR molesting JB, and she hit JB by accident instead of her target JR. I never really bought into that theory, because if she was mad enough at HIM to swing that hard, then why would she immediately team up with him? But, maybe that theory is close. IMO, molestation might cause a mother to rage on her daughter. Also, I've always trusted Arndt's initial impressions of JR. She knew something wasn't right with him. If we go back to the beginning and base a theory on statistics and initial impressions, JR, the adult male in the house, is the most likely candidate as the molester. If we let the evidence tell the story, JR's fibers were in JB's underwear and PR's fibers were in the garrote. 1+1=2? moo
 
Linda7NJ said:
I'm just dying to know something we don't already know!!!!

I have the feeling I will be no closer to solving it in my own mind.

I'm forever a RDI... Just unable to narrow it any further.
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Me too but even if we won't learn anything new I am still happy cause this is a big slap in their arrogant faces!
 
I could be wrong but I've speculated that the ligature was used originally to restrain JonBenet for the corporal cleansing.
 
wouldn't her touch DNA be on the rope then?they claimed it wasn't their rope,that the intruder brought it with him...and I assume she wasn't wearing gloves when cleaning JB?
 
I am still thinking that maybe they performed some sort of ritual....would explain the date when it happened and their behavior (nothing's wrong,she's in a better place,etc)?
 
madeleine said:
I hope you're wrong cause that would be so sick :(
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It was all horrific. Absolutely horrific.

I think that whatever we imagine, you can probably increase ten fold.

That's what child abusers do. Abuse children.

:sick:

Does Colorado still have the DP? Because JR is one individual I would like to see meeting his maker.

:furious:
 
madeleine said:
wouldn't her touch DNA be on the rope then?they claimed it wasn't their rope,that the intruder brought it with him...and I assume she wasn't wearing gloves when cleaning JB?
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Unless the person had on gloves I'd expect the DNA of whomever put the ligature on JonBenet to be on the rope. I have no idea if the rope has been tested for DNA. We do know it has been publicly reported that many fibers found entwined in in the ligature were consistent with fibers from the jacket Patsy wore to the White's Christmas party.

I wouldn't assume anything about Patsy wearing gloves or not. Somewhere I read that latex gloves were found (iirc) in the bathroom adjoining the bedroom across the hall from JonBenet's bedroom. I believe Patsy stated she had used them either the 24th or 25th when she colored her hair. (See post #517 at [ame="http://websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=8319828#post8319828"]Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet? - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame])

I just know that Steve Thomas stated he believed Patsy was the responsible and he believed the trauma (or at least some of it) came when Patsy subjected JonBenet to some form of corporal cleansing. The ligature has to fit into his theory somewhere. I may be all wet but I see it as logical the rope could have been used as a restraint device in some manner.
 
Common sense dictates they both abused her, and both were involved in her death.

I say this because both were involved in staging. Neither would willingly protect the other so there has to be mutual guilty knowledge for them to collaborate.

The details don't really matter to me, who tied what where. I think they are both responsible and PR at least has not escaped judgement.

ETA: if she was as religious as she pretended to be, she must've been terrified when she died.
 
BOESP said:
Unless the person had on gloves I'd expect the DNA of whomever put the ligature on JonBenet to be on the rope. I have no idea if the rope has been tested for DNA. We do know it has been publicly reported that many fibers found entwined in in the ligature were consistent with fibers from the jacket Patsy wore to the White's Christmas party.

I wouldn't assume anything about Patsy wearing gloves or not. Somewhere I read that latex gloves were found (iirc) in the bathroom adjoining the bedroom across the hall from JonBenet's bedroom. I believe Patsy stated she had used them either the 24th or 25th when she colored her hair. (See post #517 at Knowing all you know today about this case who do you think really killed JonBenet? - Page 21 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community)

I just know that Steve Thomas stated he believed Patsy was the responsible and he believed the trauma (or at least some of it) came when Patsy subjected JonBenet to some form of corporal cleansing. The ligature has to fit into his theory somewhere. I may be all wet but I see it as logical the rope could have been used as a restraint device in some manner.
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Yes, he believed PR was the culprit and he along with just about everyone else, seemed to think JR was some kind of bystander that got involved after the fact. But I'm not so sure they ever really excluded him. When they were all on Larry King together, there was a little exchange between ST and JR that made me think they weren't as sold on JR's innocence as we were led to believe. JR-" What did you find in our background that would demonstrate that we are capable of this crime"? ST-" I gave you a pass, John. Unless you want to say otherwise, I don't think you were involved". IMO, this doesn't sound like ST was convinced of JR's innocence. A 'pass' is not exoneration and then he gave him an opportunity to open up. Then PR said, " We, he said we". (and really, what was the point in her repeating the 'we'? And then JR being JR, stuttered around with, " I'm asking about, you accused Patsy of murder, me of complicity". Considering that JR wasn't seen as a suspect, it was weird that he included himself in the 'we'. What would have made more sense would have been for him to distance himself from the crime and defend PR ...because there really wasn't much to defend himself from. But, by his own words, this was a 'we' crime, not a 'she' crime and PR made a point to reiterate the 'we'...just in case ST missed it the 1st few times JR said it? moo
 
midwest mama said:
UK Guy - In response to your reference to BR - his possible involvement with JB just before she was killed........

Given BR was a part of the R domestic travesty, it is very possible he did not know that behaviors of his with JB which would be considered abnormal by healthy psychological standards, would ever lead to such disaster.

But, if he had been allowed to view incest was an acceptable standard for their own immediate family, as long as it was always kept a secret from outside social circles, then there would be little chance of him having to demonstrate enough rage against JB to cause the head bash or a strangulation if we assume the rage was to "shut her up". He shouldn't have had to worry about that, if the family was used to dealing with their episodes.

It is not impossible that Burke was involved with JB that night. But I do not believe he was the one who tied that hand-fashioned ligature around JB's neck and strangled the final life from her.

By Burke being given a "pass", what I meant to say is that the R's, with their books being so intently focused on the intruder theory, and yet their own "telling" statements about their lives, we are expected to look completely away from any possibility of Burke being involved in her ultimate death that night. And less pressure from the public looking at Burke eases his ability to try to move forward in life without him having the added burden of trying to offer proof of his non-involvement.
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THat is what I'm thinking, is that why does every article mention only Jon and Patti but never Burke? We have all heard of the terrible things even young, disturbed kids can do....like recently that boy who killed his sister. I can believe more that a young boy who was mental lost control and did what he did, rather than the parents who would be afraid they would leave DNA, etc, and would get caught. Also the crime just seems so out-of-control. I don't know a lot about it, but I think it makes sense that the boy did it, and then the parents covered up for him.
 
I don't think BDI makes sense one little bit.

No sane parent would stage and murder their dying child to cover up for another.

There is just zero logic to that, especially when JB was her mother's favourite toy and any 9 year old who hurt his sister is unable to be held legally responsible anyway.

JR was a very successful business man. He didn't do one single thing he didn't plan to do. The convoluted "kidnapping" theory was his brainchild. A chitty and hastily thought out brainchild, but one invented under pressure by someone who thinks they're pretty smart and is probably running on adrenaline.

What you've got to remember about these narcissists, is they think everyone else is incredibly stupid and they can fool everyone. What's sad is, they often succeed, for a while anyway, especially if they have money and can afford fancy lawyers and PR and political pressure.

:moo:
 
SapphireSteel said:
I don't think BDI makes sense one little bit.

No sane parent would stage and murder another child to cover up for the first.

There is just zero logic to that, especially when JB was her mother's favourite toy.
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No, but I'm saying Burke would have been the one who "accidentally" killed her. By the time Jr and PR found her, she was already dead. Then they covered up so that their son wouldn't be found out.
 
aa9511 said:
No, but I'm saying Burke would have been the one who "accidentally" killed her. By the time Jr and PR found her, she was already dead. Then they covered up so that their son wouldn't be found out.
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I used to think this was some kind of accident gone terribly wrong, but I'm not so sure anymore. I still don't think it was planned or premeditated necessarily, but building the garrote took some forethought and since that was the actual murder weapon, this couldn't have been an accident. PR's fibers were entwined in the rope, not BR's, so IMO, she built it and used it to kill JB. I think the head bash might fall under the 'accident' theory with everything else done in an effort to cover it up. That bash cracked JB's skull from end to end and left a huge hole in her head. IMO, it's possible that PR didn't want to be forced to explain what happened, so she covered it up with a murder and fake kidnapping. This seems heartless and almost unimaginable, but when you consider the options, it makes some sense. She could call an ambulance and be forced to explain the hole in JB's head, or she could finish her off and blame a kidnapper. And I happen to think, (don't know though), that PR was aware of how much damage she did to JB' skull. IMO, she swung as hard as she could and probably heard the skull crack and IMO, JB probably fell into an unconscious heap. IMO, this could be about extreme abuse and self preservation. But, there are a lot of things missing from this theory. Like how JR slept through it all...the bash, the screaming, the roaming all over the house, PR sitting and leisurely writing the ransom note. IDK, but I don't think BR was involved in this. moo
 
IMO PR wanted her life to seem perfect. I believe BR accidentally did it and parents stupidly covered it up. He had knowledge of knots. Maybe he had been abused by someone and was trying things out on her and took it too far. The family could not risk having their only child left have their name ran through the mud.
 
dodie20 said:
I used to think this was some kind of accident gone terribly wrong, but I'm not so sure anymore. I still don't think it was planned or premeditated necessarily, but building the garrote took some forethought and since that was the actual murder weapon, this couldn't have been an accident. PR's fibers were entwined in the rope, not BR's, so IMO, she built it and used it to kill JB. I think the head bash might fall under the 'accident' theory with everything else done in an effort to cover it up. That bash cracked JB's skull from end to end and left a huge hole in her head. IMO, it's possible that PR didn't want to be forced to explain what happened, so she covered it up with a murder and fake kidnapping. This seems heartless and almost unimaginable, but when you consider the options, it makes some sense. She could call an ambulance and be forced to explain the hole in JB's head, or she could finish her off and blame a kidnapper. And I happen to think, (don't know though), that PR was aware of how much damage she did to JB' skull. IMO, she swung as hard as she could and probably heard the skull crack and IMO, JB probably fell into an unconscious heap. IMO, this could be about extreme abuse and self preservation. But, there are a lot of things missing from this theory. Like how JR slept through it all...the bash, the screaming, the roaming all over the house, PR sitting and leisurely writing the ransom note. IDK, but I don't think BR was involved in this. moo
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dodie20,
It could be all three R's were involved but at different points in time. This might explain the largely discordant forensic evidence, i.e. the broken window, the suitcase, the photographs, the barbie doll, the barbie nightgown, the size-12's, PR's fibers?

So it might go something like this:

BR then PR then JR the latter cleaning up behind the others?

or

BR then JR then PR, the latter ignorant that JonBenet is wearing size-12's?

Another suggestion might be BR was videotaping JonBenet, or taking photographs?


.
 
BR was sound asleep.

Which is why you heard his voice early next morning on the 911 call saying "what did you find?".

Proof positive he hadn't been schooled, or involved at any stage, in my opinion.

:cow:
 
SapphireSteel said:
BR was sound asleep.

Which is why you heard his voice early next morning on the 911 call saying "what did you find?".

Proof positive he hadn't been schooled, or involved at any stage, in my opinion.

:cow:
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SapphireSteel,
LOL, nope thats BR acting out his role. He is asking PR what she found that caused a 911 phone call?

He was then sent to bed and told to fake being asleep, as per the Ramsey version of events.

Which is all fake of course!


.
 
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