You are so welcome for the help Sunshine! After reading the above post I am a bit confused, no, very confused. So the investigator DID get the evidence from the ECSO and it was of no use? Hmm, and "this man's car colors were not what they are looking for" which says they DO have a suspect. "a light colored car...maybe white...55-56 Chevy" fits the description of the car that was seen by the eye witnesses. Did you tell the investigator to read this forum? He really should. It ain't over 'til the fat lady sings! :banghead:
NM NM - Patty Pritz, 14, & Mattie Restine, 13, Carlsbad, 11 Aug 1961 - #1
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Sunshine 1950
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He said the DNA testing that was done in 2004 wasn't any good...that it didn't provide a profile of the individuals. I don't understand all of that...but basically I'm saying the DNA testing didn't point them to anyone. I told him I thought they should do the tests again and do the Nuclear DNA...but he said there wasn't anything to test...again...I don't understand all that...but that is what he said.
As for the Nichols guy...he did talk with the grand-daughter and asked her questions about this man and his cars. He said he felt like the man's age was an issue...and that his car's were the wrong color. I don't know if they have a suspect or not...I just know that DB has been the number one since the 2003 investigation...but he didn't say that...I did. Investigator Sillas assures me he will talk with the people that we have mentioned on here regarding the DB theory. I feel like he is trying to help out....I just don't know how far he will go with it. Hopefully he will solve it.
The car they are focusing on is the white/light colored '55-'56 Chevy. And he did say that they felt like the girls were picked up on Church St. not Mesquite. He didn't elaborate about the reason for that...but then again I didn't ask....
He has emailed me and called me twice since yesterday...so hopefully he is going to keep me informed and work on the case.
I just wish he could work it out that the evidence is sent back to the FBI lab....
Sunshine 1950
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I did tell him about the websleuths website...I told him how to get on the site and encouraged him to read this forum....I told him that he would really be surprised about how much information he could learn if he would get on here. I just hope he does.
justthinkin
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SS1950, you could always fib, tell the detective to name the suspects who drove the right kind of car, and you'll go away. LOL. Seriously, something just seems wrong about the lab tests. Maybe you should ask him to explain to you how a sample can be positive for semen, but not provide a profile! I do know that testing destroys evidence, so I'm wondering if they just took a very small sample. and now don't have anymore. : ( The thing is there was no dna test back then so they weren't preparing samples to run dna tests. Still they should've scraped under the girls fingernails, made swabs, etc. They should've bagged the clothing to test for fibers.
justthinkin
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I think he's wearing a hard hat. A cowboy hat would sit lower over his forehead.
Sunshine 1950
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I don't think he would tell me that ...even if he knew. I will have to go back and read the reports I have regarding the car on Church St. I wish I knew what kind of cars DB friends had back then...I still believe there was more than just him doing the deed. I would like to give this investigator some time to see how he works with me. I praying he will do what he says he will do...work on the case.
I know there wasn't DNA testing back in 1961...so those tests had to be talking about sperm...versus no sperm....like I said I'm not the smartest person understanding this stuff. I do know the list of evidence that was sent to the FBI in 1961...did list fingernail scrappings and all the clothing. But you know I was thinking about that diary of Patty's...I don't remember it being listed. Something to think about here. I will go back and look at that list of evidence again.
Sunshine 1950
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Why would these men wear these items. Hard hat on WDB and gloves on BM. Strange???
It could be that Melton wore gloves to change that tire that is seen in the open trunk of that car, W.D. worked at the mine and miners wear hard hats so perhaps he had just gotten off work. I don't remember the date of that photo but I know that Blair didn't work that Sunday the 13th, or....did he?? and forgot to take off the hat, or maybe it just looks like a hard hat but was some other type of cap. Also, if he worked under ground at the mine the hat would have a round light on the front of it.
Melton is holding something small and white in his left hand, maybe a hankerchief? Could there have been something in it? spent shell casings??
justthinkin
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Bobbi, I noticed that too, but couldn't make out what Melton was holding.
Another thing I found odd is supposedly that gravel road where the girls were found was a rough road. Seems hard to fathom that a killer with 3 bald tires would chance a rough road. Wonder exactly what they meant in describing it as rough. Was it because of heavy gravel or pot holes or undulations in the land? Maybe someone local knows. Then too, it being desert country out there, wouldn't cactus have been a worry or other thorny plants?
And didn't I read something about rain either the night of the murders or that weekend? When did it rain?
Another thing I found odd is supposedly that gravel road where the girls were found was a rough road. Seems hard to fathom that a killer with 3 bald tires would chance a rough road. Wonder exactly what they meant in describing it as rough. Was it because of heavy gravel or pot holes or undulations in the land? Maybe someone local knows. Then too, it being desert country out there, wouldn't cactus have been a worry or other thorny plants?
And didn't I read something about rain either the night of the murders or that weekend? When did it rain?
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quote.....
He said the DNA testing that was done in 2004 wasn't any good...that it didn't provide a profile of the individuals....end of quote.
I don't know much about it either....but what he was telling you, is that a graph chart of colors and lines they would have gotten from the DNA, apparently did not provide enough, if any at all, the require amount of colors and lines on a graph chart, to be able to compare with someone else s color and lines on there graph chat........which would have helped in matching two possible profiles of DNA.
My question, which i am sure has been answered, but i have not looked through this thread, if the girls clothing is still being kept as evidence, and was not returned to the families, it would be nice, to have there clothing taken to a state of the art DNA facility and done again, looking at the clothing of both girls, with there hi powered microscopes, or what ever they use now a days, to look for other possible DNA such as hair or skin cells from the clothing.
Just because Mattie was found clothed, does not mean, no trace of DNA was not left upon her. No one knows for sure, if she was always dressed, or someone may had dressed her after the fact, or perhaps had her undress at one time, then redress, i don't know.
If they were in ones car/home/business etc, at some point in time, either of the girls could have picked up someones DNA, by setting on some hair from the car seat/chair/floor etc, and that hair stayed attached to the girl or girls clothing, and it is still there to this day. though i am just speculating it being possible.
Perhaps even after all this time, there could be human hair, cat hair, dog hair etc etc still laying somewhere on the girls clothing, that has not been found yet..............i used cat hair, and dog hair, for if that was the case, and they identified it as being as such, perhaps a POI at the time, had a cat or dog, that match the hair they found after reexamining the clothing, with today's DNA technologies, they probably could tell you what kind of dog or cat the hair belonged to, and perhaps a POI had a similar cat or dog, that came into contact with the girls, i don't know for sure.
Enjoy the fall foliage this weekend, it should be a beautiful time for you.....we will be here, waiting for your return, so just enjoy your time off with hubby, the outing will go a long way in clearing your mind of clutter and frustration.
PS..i almost forgot, that bible she carried with her, should be checked also.................for DNA, i don't see someone wearing gloves at the time, to prevent skin cells oil from fingers/finger tips, from being deposited on the pages............
justthinkin, I believe only one tire was bald, and it was said that there had been a light rain falling on the night of the 11th.
Do you think that the killer(s) was/were trying to bury the bodies, but got interrupted? They obviously werent dumped. In most rape/murders of strangers, the body is thrown to the ground. Generally, the female is face down. Here both victims were face up and separated by at least 50 feet. My guess is that the killer knew the victims and was intending to bury them separately. He was going to bury them separately, because he is discriminating between them.
The area that the girls were found is rock with very little dirt covering the rock. You can see the strata of rock from the cuts made for the highway. That is the reason that it surprises me that someone with three bald tires would take a car off the main road in that area since the rocks are sharp and can punch a hole in the tires in a heart-beat.
Do you think that this is the site that the murder took place or the place that the murderer left the bodies? Do we have anything that tell us whether there was tissue and blood spray recovered from the site or only on the bodies? Do you think that the murderer was familiar with the site or was it an area of convenience since it is the first trail (not a maintained road) that you come to when you turn onto Hwy. 137?
The consensus, of which I agree, is that Mattie & Patty were murdered elsewhere than where their bodies were found. If the location is "rock with very little dirt covering the rock", then burial would not be possible. But remember that it is likely that the bodies were laid down at the spot the night of August 11-12, then even someone partially familiar with the area, may have put them in a place that he wished he didn't. Meaning, he thought that burial would be possible, but found out that it wasn't and then fled the scene.
I am just trying to figure out why the murderer would go to all of the trouble of driving 12 miles out of town, carefully placing the bodies on the ground, but not burying them. It's still possible that the perp may have been somewhat familiar with the area, but still placed the bodies in an area where they would be found (not immediately, but eventually). Many Websleuthers give murderers too much credit - they are not that smart, they do things out of convenience, and won't make huge efforts to cover their tracks. But Finder50 may be correct (& makes a good argument), that the killer was not familar with area.
Tom I agree with you that the site was a matter of convenience. If you had a map and you followed from WDB's address on Texas St. you will find that there is one stop sign between that address and the truck by-pass which leads directly to Hwy 285 and is only about five miles from the site. Back in 1961 it would taken about 30 seconds of driving very carefully to have been out the populated area and chance of being detected.
In 1961 Hwy 285 was a two lane highway and the first noticable road that the murderer would have encountered was Hwy 137, which intersects Hwy 285 at Hamilton Station, and then once off the main highway it was a matter of finding someplace remote to dispose of the bodies. The first primitive road that the murderer would have encountered once he turned on Hwy 137 was the one that he dumped the bodies on. That is not to say that he wasn't familiar with the area, but I agree with you that he was looking for the quickest route out-of-town with the least chance of being detected. The only other reason would have been that he was not from the area and he was traveling north.
Otherwise, had he gone east where there are hundreds of oilfield roads and desert that you could bury a body in and chance are it would never be found.
Don't get me wrong I am not near as good at sleuthing as you guys are, but I have hunted all over the area around Carlsbad and wanted to give you an idea of the different geography.
In 1961 Hwy 285 was a two lane highway and the first noticable road that the murderer would have encountered was Hwy 137, which intersects Hwy 285 at Hamilton Station, and then once off the main highway it was a matter of finding someplace remote to dispose of the bodies. The first primitive road that the murderer would have encountered once he turned on Hwy 137 was the one that he dumped the bodies on. That is not to say that he wasn't familiar with the area, but I agree with you that he was looking for the quickest route out-of-town with the least chance of being detected. The only other reason would have been that he was not from the area and he was traveling north.
Otherwise, had he gone east where there are hundreds of oilfield roads and desert that you could bury a body in and chance are it would never be found.
Don't get me wrong I am not near as good at sleuthing as you guys are, but I have hunted all over the area around Carlsbad and wanted to give you an idea of the different geography.
These Navy Arms pistols are muzzle loaders and use a totally different gun powder from a regular pistol, i.e. black powder. Black powder burns very dirty. According to the reports both girls were shot in the head at close range. IF a black powder pistol were used, it should have been very apparent to the medical examiners...assuming they knew anything about firearms.
Estrada was very smart to look for signs of the bullet or wadding at the exhumation. There is traditionally a cotton cloth patch around or sometimes under the bullet between the ball and powder as a sealant. Sometimes this patch will separate from the projectile in the first few yards of flight and sometimes it won't.
Point being is that IF this cap and ball style pistol were the murder weapon, this should have been obvious to all and especially the ME. This is true with or without the presence of the cotton patch.
Most people don't buy such pistols for reenactments. They are usually bought because they are cheaper than modern pistols and then again some people just enjoy messing with the older style guns. Considering the suspects, I suspect this gun was bought because it was cheap.
I find it odd they were both shot in the temple. Were they unconscious? Obviously they wouldn't cooperate with the killer. Why was one shot in one side and the other in the opposite side of the head?
The scenario that comes to mind is if the girls were lined up side by side. One was shot and the other looked away and was quickly shot in the opposite side.
I recall reading there was no surrounding blood spatter at the scene but now I learn it rained that night and may have washed away most of the blood on the ground etc.
To say that this crime scene was contaminated by onlookers would be a great understatement. There were about two dozen people wandering around the scene that we know of.
Since the bullets passed through both girl's heads, the only way there would be a bullet to find is if the girls were sitting or lying down where their bodies were found. Otherwise the bullet would have traveled a considerable distance, i.e. 100 yds or more, and would be like looking for a needle in a haystack. Also quite likely is that some of the people looking for the bullet would not know what it looked like after the fact and might walk right over it and never recognize it.
In a way it sounds like where the girls were found was a "dump site" rather than the murder site. But if they were shot inside a vehicle or even transported after being murdered in a vehicle, this brings up some horrible cleaning and evidence removal problems for the killer. It would be dumb to kill or move a body in your own vehicle.
For this reason I tend to think they WERE murdered where they were found. The rape could have taken place anywhere.
Sunshine 1950
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I received some news today that makes me sad....the Nichols man's daughter has died. She was 94 yrs. old and died on Oct. 4th. Her daughter e-mailed me this morning and told me that her mother had passed away. That is why I haven't been able to get in touch with her. Pray for her family during this time, we all know losing a loved one is hard.
justthinkin
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I
I have thought on this crime scene location, and unfortunately it seems like not only might a local choose it, but also someone from out of town. Being just off a highway, and connected by a road to the north and one on the south both leading back onto the Artesia Hwy spells convenience and quick get away.
I think the crime scene location was preselected whether the killer was a local or not. I'l say again, I believe the killer to be a sexual predator. This type person usually plans out the crime in advance. He knows where he will take his victim/s once he has them, and he knows how much traffic the area is apt to receive, and what the odds are of him being seen or disturbed. He could be a local or a temporary local, but he would've been familiar with the area where the bodies were found. Such a person is still going to want a quick get away after the deed is done.
And now that I've said that, I just had the thought if this person or his car was seen in the pasture from the highway that night, then he might have been from out of town, and unaware when he headed down that road just how close to the highway he'd doubled back.
It's my feeling where the bodies were found is where the crime occured. I see nothing to indicate the police thought the crime had occured elsewhere. Had the girls been moved, then some of Patty's clothing wouldn't have been folded.
I've got a question. Does anyone know if the two women killed the night the trucker was killed were sexually assaulted? Their bodies were found a number of feet apart. That could suggest that the crimes are similar, and yet IIRC they were strangled? Yes? No?
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