In the trunk 2.6 days Decomp Info #1

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TakeNote said:
but one thing is very clear....there was some kind of clean up....for them to have only found one hair....
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the A's sure are compulsive cleaners. They clean Caylee's sheets every week. The rest of us would be crawling into her bed and taking in her sweet smell. We would not be destroying evidence. It reminds me of Kate and cuddle cat (i've been lurking here for years).
 
Salem said:
Okay - it said the decomp gases were consistent with anerobic (lack of oxygen) type of death. How long would Caylee have to be in the trunk to suffocate? I think KC smothered or choked her, then put her in the trunk. Then went back to the house to put her in the yard. Decided that was not a good idea and moved her later.

A trunk is not airtight and Caylee, especially if she was sleeping, could have survived in there for a fairly long period of time. It does not sound as if she died from heat exhaustion, but I'm no scientist. But heat exhaustion does not suffocate you does it?

Salem
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I'm not sure if this is the way I'm understanding this but maybe someone can explain. I googled deprived oxygen type of decompositional event and the way I understand it to mean is basically when we die our bodies are deprived of blood flowing which deprives the cells of oxygen and they start to break down so this doesn't mean Caylee had to be in the trunk when she died..just that she was put there after but no longer than or around 2.6 days..Is this correct?...:confused:
 
liltigress said:
It was mentioned early on that the trunk was noticeably clean... as in, only a small stain. I THINK this statement may have come from an interview with the tow yard guy that was there when the trunk was opened for the first time. If we are to assume it held a body, decomposing and rotting, there would be more than just a slight stain. Put that together with George claiming there was a container of 'cleaning fluids' in the garbage bag with the pizza.. this is the conclusion of many, including me.
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There was no pizza-only a pizza box...and I would almost gurantee she TRIED to clean it after she finally got Caylee out, but as we all know, that scent, the death scent of a human, is hard to clean and even time will not erase it in many instances...Did she eat a pizza while she took a break from cleaning up her dead daughters remains?
 
Maybe Casey did think she'd have more time to deal with whatever it is she did - didn't g-gma say that Cindy was supposed to go somewhere while on her vacation - but decided to stay home in case Caylee came back? (Something like that)

Maybe this threw a wrench into Casey's plans?

Anyone remeber when that vac. time was off hand?
 
SeriouslySearching said:
As far as 2.6 days, I think this only puts the decomp value at that period of time in saying the body was at that stage of decomp when inside the trunk and not a determination she was there for that long. (I could be wrong, but it is what I believe.)
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Thats the way I read it also..We still have dirt taken from the backyard that has not been released. I think KC put Caylee in the backyard for a certain amount of time and then put her in the trunk and took her someplace else.
 
MsMacGyver said:
I'm not sure if this is the way I'm understanding this but maybe someone can explain. I googled deprived oxygen type of decompositional event and the way I understand it to mean is basically when we die our bodies are deprived of blood flowing which deprives the cells of oxygen and they start to break down so this doesn't mean Caylee had to be in the trunk when she died..just that she was put there after but no longer than or around 2.6 days..Is this correct?...:confused:
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MsMac - if you read back through the first 2 pages, you will see I was completely wrong and with some help from Bev, the impatientreadhead, wedavis and I'm not sure who else, I think I finally understand a bit about what the report was saying:crazy:

Thank you and I now agree with what you are saying. Caylee was in the trunk of the car during early stages of decomp. Your interpretation appears to be correct from what I now understand.

Salem
 
Salem said:
MsMac - if you read back through the first 2 pages, you will see I was completely wrong and with some help from Bev, the impatientreadhead, wedavis and I'm not sure who else, I think I finally understand a bit about what the report was saying:crazy:

Thank you and I now agree with what you are saying. Caylee was in the trunk of the car during early stages of decomp. Your interpretation appears to be correct from what I now understand.

Salem
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Hi Salem..Yes, I backtracked a bit..Bev is one smart cookie and cleared the question up for both of us..Thanks..:blowkiss:
 
I think that she put her in the trunk to sleep with Choroform and she died. She left her in the trunk for 2.6 days and took her to her parents, tried to bury her but it was tough work with the shovel she borrowed. So, she put her into the sandbox and then went back before the weekend. I believe it was rainy and didn't think her parents would be venturing into the backyard. Safe in the sandbox because it wasn't used much. Yes a small child could fit it with the lid shut. My grandaughter has one. But her in a airtight container or plastic bags and back into the trunk until she the final disposal. I think that it works with the timeline. Just my thoughts.
 
Blink34 said:
Ok, I admittedly know nothing about this, but I have been told by a colleague, that use of chloraform recreationally, is the contemporary equivalent of the "oxygen deprivation" during sex thing, and is well known around the younger set. As RM had this pic on his myspace, I tend to think it possible- has anyone done any research on that angle?
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I haven't, but since there was Chloroform "residue" found in the spare wheel well...I find it difficult to believe they were using it for sex.
 
MsMacGyver said:
Thats the way I read it also..We still have dirt taken from the backyard that has not been released. I think KC put Caylee in the backyard for a certain amount of time and then put her in the trunk and took her someplace else.
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And soil in the trunk!
 
I have to respectfully disagree - the gases/chemicals measured would have been the chemicals/gases released on day1, the g/c released on day 2 and the g/c measured on day 3. These gases/chemical release aren't all on the same day at the same time, there is a sequence in which they're released.

If the ratio of calcium : magnesium is 5 parts to one part after 90 days of decomp, then he is claiming that the he found the ratio to be consistent with 2.6 days of composition after factoring in ambient means which in my opinion, was too high - the means for that particular week was 86 not 95.

You're forgetting too, that an "airtight container" can mean that she wrapped her up in a blanket or a sheet which would after two days leak fluids which would be absorbed into the trunk liner/carpet.

You know, we're talking about someone who plans nothing - she lives her life day by day and has no plans for the future, that she planned a complicated murder scheme is out of character for her. I believe that she wanted her to sleep all afternoon so she wouldn't have to chase her around and amuse her - KC wanted to goof off, not watch a two year old, which no matter how much you love them is tedious and boring. I think she may have given her something to make her sleep, and the little girl probably died in her sleep of cardiac arrthmyia or choked on her vomit.

If she discovered her around 4pm on that day, that would explain the flurry of phone calls to her parents and her brother - when she didn't get an answer it gave her time to think that this was something that wasn't going to be easy to explain - that's when I believe she wrapped her up in something and put her in the trunk to give herself time to think. Would she have left the body in the car for days? Yes, I think so, first, because she seems to be the queen of procrastinators and second, she wouldn't want to think about it until she was forced to, which obviously is the modus operandi of her life - for seven months she denied she was pregnant and probably sought no care for those entire seven months.

Would she have left her in the trunk of the car for several days? I believe she would and I believe she left her in that trunk for at least 5 days until she was forced to do something because of the odour. Unfortunately for her, the fluids that leaked into the carpet continued to deteriorate and just got worse and worse. Once that odour gets into something you can't get it out.

No, I don't believe she had help - I believe that when her parents brought that car home, her mother tried to clean it and the reason it didn't come out was because it had seeped through the carpet to the trunk liner.

Premeditated murder? I don't think she could premeditate lunch, if its anything it's a felony murder - murder in the commission of a felony - she assaulted that child with an illegal substance and a murder occurred during that assault. If she had called 911 immediately she might have plead and gotten a 5 to 10, now she's facing life without parole.
 
Bev, I think you're darn close. I do enjoy reading your knowledge of these results.

What exactly do you think the chloroform searches were about?
 
mommya said:
Maybe Casey did think she'd have more time to deal with whatever it is she did - didn't g-gma say that Cindy was supposed to go somewhere while on her vacation - but decided to stay home in case Caylee came back? (Something like that)

Maybe this threw a wrench into Casey's plans?

Anyone remeber when that vac. time was off hand?
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I just read G-gma interview she says it was after fathers day when Cindy took a weeks vacation and was supposed to go visit in-laws and go to beach, but she ended up staying home because every day Casey kept telling her she could see Caylee the next day. She also says that a week or two later Cindy took another week off and thats the week she did all the yard work. I think that somewhere in all the docs. I read the yard work was done the week of the 4th of July.
 
Meagain said:
Can someone tell me why many here claim the trunk was cleaned? I'm not getting the reasons for that thinking from the report.
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My reason, but not from the report.
Lee said the trunk was open, doors and windows open to air out the car.
Since C&G are such neat nuts they would not let any "mess" left in the trunk.
I can just see them with their brushes, vacuums, disinfectants and other cleaners.
 
lacey clementine said:
(I am copying this post from that thread - good information)

For those that missed it on the first thread


This is what I typed out while talking to my cousin who is in his last year of school to be a forensic pathologist.


Ok, he says about the 2.6 days. It appears as if this body was placed in the enclosed space of the trunk directly after death and left there in an unsealed container for 2 to 3 days per the test results. The body then could have remained in the enclosed space but was then placed in a recepticle to carry it, halting the decomp process on the fibers of the carpet in the trunk.
Many hairs were found, ONE with the death band/ The hair withthe death band also showed Chloroform in small traces. Interesting about the amout of Chloroform in the trunk, decomp DOES contain Chloroform but in miniscle amounts. With these results it shows someone had to have put pure choloroform in the trunk.

About the gasoline. It could only come in those levels if spilled or poured in the trunk, no way those vapors came from open containers, period. Which indicates to him that someone tried to clean with this agent.




He also asked who *I* did in.... Nice.

He doesn't follow this case at all but said it's obvios to him that *whomever this Caylee is* she is dead, he body was in the car without being placed in any bag or anything for 2-3 days and choloroform was used either on her or in the trunk.

He said he'd like to see the fiber samples which would most likely contain skin samples from fluids that they can pull DNA from.

Ok, that's what I got before he had to leave.

Snipped for length


Thanks Lacey, very informative and telling, especially having been explained by a forensic pathologist !! I went over and over it and the key here is it was placed in trunk immediately AFTER DEATH !! It was left there for 2.6 days and it could have been moved about, taken out of there and when it was returned to trunk, it was returned in the plastic bag. IMO That's when she went home and borrowed shovel.
The neighbor BB states she backed car into garage. So she figures the easy way out is to try and make it look like drowning, but then remembers that won't fly with LE as she is a CSI buff and knows there was no water in her lungs. So she decided to bury her in backyard but changes mind. Now this theory can play 2 ways. It could be she placed her in pool right after death, feigning the drowning or when she went back the 18th to get the shovel.
The next important point here is she then grabs a plastic bag to put her in, ending the time element of 2.6 days as now her body's contained.

2nd Important point, this pathologist said he would like to see the fiber samples for DNA from skin in trunk after being placed in some type container. The bag that was found by LE and tow yard I'm willing to bet, will or has already given them her DNA as it refers to remains. REMAINS another key issue as that's what the maggots were feeding off.
So the others that say they saw her on the 20-27 dates could still be VERY VIABLE. Since she may have still carried her around until that time.
IMHO
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Thanks Liltigress. I tend to wait until I get multiple sources for reports leaked to the press. I really don't know if there were searches for chloroform or not, but I do tend to think she wanted that baby knocked out for a good part of her day with her. If she did come up with some kind of homemade concoction, the problem is that there is NO controllable dosage for that. I can tell you one thing though, if she did use pool shock or powdered chlorine, it would have been an awful way for that baby to die - it's like breathing in a blow torch. I noticed that on that day she didn't make any phone calls between 1:30 and 4:pm - is it because she lied so much to people about working that she couldn't talk without someone hearing the little girl and she got antsy to yak with an adult? Just speculation.
 
no no, she did not want to knock out the baby, she wanted to kill her. I beleive she summarily chloroformed that child either by shutting her in the trunk with a rag and walked away, or she put it over her mouth until she died.

you don't chloroform your baby period.

there was no reason to do this, she could have simply dropped Caylee off with her mother and run off to do whatever she pleased.

she killed the baby out of spite, hatefulness and selfishness.

there is no way you can paint this as a nice accident, it was 1st degree murder of the most vicious kind against a helpless innocent.
 
Bev said:
I have to respectfully disagree - the gases/chemicals measured would have been the chemicals/gases released on day1, the g/c released on day 2 and the g/c measured on day 3. These gases/chemical release aren't all on the same day at the same time, there is a sequence in which they're released.

If the ratio of calcium : magnesium is 5 parts to one part after 90 days of decomp, then he is claiming that the he found the ratio to be consistent with 2.6 days of composition after factoring in ambient means which in my opinion, was too high - the means for that particular week was 86 not 95.

You're forgetting too, that an "airtight container" can mean that she wrapped her up in a blanket or a sheet which would after two days leak fluids which would be absorbed into the trunk liner/carpet.

You know, we're talking about someone who plans nothing - she lives her life day by day and has no plans for the future, that she planned a complicated murder scheme is out of character for her. I believe that she wanted her to sleep all afternoon so she wouldn't have to chase her around and amuse her - KC wanted to goof off, not watch a two year old, which no matter how much you love them is tedious and boring. I think she may have given her something to make her sleep, and the little girl probably died in her sleep of cardiac arrthmyia or choked on her vomit.

If she discovered her around 4pm on that day, that would explain the flurry of phone calls to her parents and her brother - when she didn't get an answer it gave her time to think that this was something that wasn't going to be easy to explain - that's when I believe she wrapped her up in something and put her in the trunk to give herself time to think. Would she have left the body in the car for days? Yes, I think so, first, because she seems to be the queen of procrastinators and second, she wouldn't want to think about it until she was forced to, which obviously is the modus operandi of her life - for seven months she denied she was pregnant and probably sought no care for those entire seven months.

Would she have left her in the trunk of the car for several days? I believe she would and I believe she left her in that trunk for at least 5 days until she was forced to do something because of the odour. Unfortunately for her, the fluids that leaked into the carpet continued to deteriorate and just got worse and worse. Once that odour gets into something you can't get it out.

No, I don't believe she had help - I believe that when her parents brought that car home, her mother tried to clean it and the reason it didn't come out was because it had seeped through the carpet to the trunk liner.

Premeditated murder? I don't think she could premeditate lunch, if its anything it's a felony murder - murder in the commission of a felony - she assaulted that child with an illegal substance and a murder occurred during that assault. If she had called 911 immediately she might have plead and gotten a 5 to 10, now she's facing life without parole.
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Hi Bev

I totally agree with your post. My very first idea when I saw the "flurry of phone calls" was that Casey was trying to contact them to lie and say Caylee had an accident ( pool drowning) and thereby establish she was making an effort to get help and whomever she contacted could call 911 for her . Then I read that the pings put Casey near or at the Anthonys home and someone suggested she was calling to check if they were home, so that quashed the 911 call theory. It has always bothered me that no one answered the calls, and I can't wait to find out why. Further, I agree Caylees body was in the trunk and to add to the time line, Casey visited with
a male friend around the 17th or 18th but not in her own car....she was driving a dark colored jeep...so I believe she had hidden her car somewhere because of the body being in the trunk, and took Anthony Lazzaros car, possibly scouting places to dump Caylee. I want to thank you for all your posts they are very informative and helpful to someone like me, who is forensically challenged.
 
minazoe said:
no no, she did not want to knock out the baby, she wanted to kill her. I beleive she summarily chloroformed that child either by shutting her in the trunk with a rag and walked away, or she put it over her mouth until she died.

you don't chloroform your baby period.

there was no reason to do this, she could have simply dropped Caylee off with her mother and run off to do whatever she pleased.

she killed the baby out of spite, hatefulness and selfishness.

there is no way you can paint this as a nice accident, it was 1st degree murder of the most vicious kind against a helpless innocent.
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I agree with you One hundred percent! This was premeditated, cold, and ruthless. She wanted to kill her 'quietly' and be done with her. Wash her hands of this baby. I hope they get her for all they can and can prove. She is a horrible human being. And I don't think much more of the rest of the family, either.
 
Thanks, Dejavu, I appreciate that. From taking the report as a whole, it is very obvious that the body wasn't just placed in that trunk - it had to be contained in something and the obvious thing is a blanket or a sheet or even a beach towel. That body was in that trunk for a period of several days and then removed and the GCMS reports prove it. The LIBS test was the confirmation for me. There are constants that can be factored in the release of decompositional gases/chemicals. That's just a fact.

Minazoe, she could not have just dropped that baby off with her mother, her mother was working - if they did have a fight, I would bet it was about her Mom working 12 hour days and needing KC to get up in the morning and take care of the baby while she got ready for work. Little kids like that wake up early, they want breakfast and they want attention. When you get home from a long day like that you're tired, despite CA's portrait of the happy evening of getting a baby fed and bathed and in bed (and at that age, they usually fight going to bed too) it is often times really, really hard. I know why she wanted KC at home during the night - so she could get up with the baby and let CA get ready for work.
 
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