Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #37

[Fuskier]

Originally Posted by Makara

It was Pulpfiction from memory Doc.

Pulpfiction was about to be verified as a child therapist IMO.

[DrWatson]

Originally Posted by Makara

It was Pulpfiction from memory Doc.

Thanks Makara and Fuskier - it was indeed. (Slaps brain)...!

Haven't seen her around for a while. What I was wondering was how traumatic it would be for the girls, being back in their old locale, complete with other kids at school (and we all know how insensitive other kids can be - not necessarily deliberately). And the constant reminders of what they MAY have seen or heard that night? The school is only metres away from their old house.

On the other hand, could an argument be made that a clean break, fresh start, etc, in a new school, somewhere like the Gold Coast, where they have their grandparents' house to which they've been many times before, may in fact be better? A definite break in routines and surroundings, that they can get over, rather than constant reminders and environment which may be somewhat toxic?

Yes, there is a lot of support from locals here, but I wonder if the sympathy effect may actually be prolonging the grieving process?

I'm no psychologist, especially of the child variety, and was wondering if somebody like Pulpfiction may have been able to offer an opinion? A qualified opinion, that is? I'm sure that all the non-qualified opinions that we all have, including me, are valid, but from a scientific, and clinical perspective, which is the better scenario?

[Keentoknow]

I don't think that we should be discussing the childrens mental health in here

[ollijack]

Originally Posted by DrWatson

Thanks Makara and Fuskier - it was indeed. (Slaps brain)...!

Haven't seen her around for a while. What I was wondering was how traumatic it would be for the girls, being back in their old locale, complete with other kids at school (and we all know how insensitive other kids can be - not necessarily deliberately). And the constant reminders of what they MAY have seen or heard that night? The school is only metres away from their old house.

On the other hand, could an argument be made that a clean break, fresh start, etc, in a new school, somewhere like the Gold Coast, where they have their grandparents' house to which they've been many times before, may in fact be better? A definite break in routines and surroundings, that they can get over, rather than constant reminders and environment which may be somewhat toxic?

Yes, there is a lot of support from locals here, but I wonder if the sympathy effect may actually be prolonging the grieving process?

I'm no psychologist, especially of the child variety, and was wondering if somebody like Pulpfiction may have been able to offer an opinion? A qualified opinion, that is? I'm sure that all the non-qualified opinions that we all have, including me, are valid, but from a scientific, and clinical perspective, which is the better scenario?

Well luckily it is the children's grandparent's who make that decision, they would know the little one's the best.....<modsnip>

[possumheart]

Originally Posted by Keentoknow

I don't think that we should be discussing the childrens mental health in here

Yes we have been pulled up for stuff like that before

DrW rest assured that all/any of the children at the school who would have required counselling would have been given access to it. The Education Department is fabulous that way.

[DrWatson]

Originally Posted by Keentoknow

I don't think that we should be discussing the childrens mental health in here

Fair point, KTK - but I was thinking more in the abstract. The reason it actually came up is that a friend and neighbour, who is very close to the family, raised that very question with me last night. She was concerned that the clustering round of so many friends and supporters, along with the proximity to the house, may in fact be detrimental, and what did I think? I, of course, replied that I wasn't qualified to offer an opinion.

So I was thinking more in general terms about the effects of remaining in the surroundings of a traumatic event as opposed to making the break.

If others feel that this line of thought is off limits, then fine - no need to continue it. But the welfare of the girls has been discussed on here at some length previously, so I thought that perhaps it was a question worth considering. Given that this is a victim-friendly forum, and the girls are almost as much victims as Allison.

[marlywings]

It's fine to discuss them in general but that's about as far it goes.

I'll also mention again...if you have an issue with a post please use the alert button.

[Keentoknow]

Originally Posted by DrWatson

Fair point, KTK - but I was thinking more in the abstract. The reason it actually came up is that a friend and neighbour, who is very close to the family, raised that very question with me last night. She was concerned that the clustering round of so many friends and supporters, along with the proximity to the house, may in fact be detrimental, and what did I think? I, of course, replied that I wasn't qualified to offer an opinion.

So I was thinking more in general terms about the effects of remaining in the surroundings of a traumatic event as opposed to making the break.

If others feel that this line of thought is off limits, then fine - no need to continue it. But the welfare of the girls has been discussed on here at some length previously, so I thought that perhaps it was a question worth considering. Given that this is a victim-friendly forum, and the girls are almost as much victims as Allison.

The Dickies have done their best to protect the girls so I for one would like to see them protected in here as well. Especially their privacy

[Fly on the Wall]

Originally Posted by DrWatson

Thanks Makara and Fuskier - it was indeed. (Slaps brain)...!

Haven't seen her around for a while. What I was wondering was how traumatic it would be for the girls, being back in their old locale, complete with other kids at school (and we all know how insensitive other kids can be - not necessarily deliberately). And the constant reminders of what they MAY have seen or heard that night? The school is only metres away from their old house.

On the other hand, could an argument be made that a clean break, fresh start, etc, in a new school, somewhere like the Gold Coast, where they have their grandparents' house to which they've been many times before, may in fact be better? A definite break in routines and surroundings, that they can get over, rather than constant reminders and environment which may be somewhat toxic?

Yes, there is a lot of support from locals here, but I wonder if the sympathy effect may actually be prolonging the grieving process?

I'm no psychologist, especially of the child variety, and was wondering if somebody like Pulpfiction may have been able to offer an opinion? A qualified opinion, that is? I'm sure that all the non-qualified opinions that we all have, including me, are valid, but from a scientific, and clinical perspective, which is the better scenario?

I have been questioning the same thing. Surely it makes more sense for the young girls to make a clean break. At their ages they would be very adaptable to change and the Gold Coast offers a great lifestyle for growing children. I have wondered though, if by moving back to Brookfield, whether it would give the Dickies more family support to assist with the girls (especially as they are getting older themselves.)

[Fuskier]

Originally Posted by DrWatson

Fair point, KTK - but I was thinking more in the abstract... So I was thinking more in general terms about the effects of remaining in the surroundings of a traumatic event as opposed to making the break...

Sometimes when children have suffered major trauma and major life changing losses, Professionals and Courts tend to support a decision to keep 'the family group of children' together in the best interests of secure belonging - to prevent further disruption. Secure attachment is now paramount and needs to be protected - given such significant and profound losses. The grandparents, school friends, teachers, familiar environment, establishment of routine, ongoing child therapeutic support, support from Allison's friends and a caring local community can all help them get through this together for the time being. Balancing the 'risks' and 'protective' factors would have been taken into account in any Family Court Decision. The best interest of the children is paramount. My opinion only, not fact.

[alioop]

Originally Posted by minni

Thanks Alioop. The september 9 thing...is that just a mention? when is the committal, or is it not set yet? what is the hearing? is it the committal? sorry, haha I dont know what is what!

Sorry minni, missed replying to your post earlier. The sept 9 court appearance is a committal mention, a procedural matter to make sure all parties are moving towards doing what they need to do like the prosecution handing over the evidence they have already been ordered to to by 20 August.

There will likely be more of these mentions and at some point a date for the actual committal hearing will be set for a magistrate to determine if there is sufficient evidence on which a jury could convict to send the defendant to trial in the District Court or Supreme Court. Some more info about the committal process is in this link

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justic...mittal-hearing

I think most people charged with murder get committed to stand trial as the police would usually have "sufficient evidence" either at the time of arrest or by the date of the committal. Obviously though the magistrate has to also be convinced that there is "sufficient evidence" The standard of proof is much lower than what is necessary to convict in a trial by a jury. For our American friends it is our equivalent of the US grand jury process, though quite a bit different.

If committed to trial by the magistrate, in this case due to the severity of the charge, namely murder, the accused person would ultimately be tried in the Supreme Court of Queensland.

GBC's committal hearing is not going to happen before next year. The forensic accounting investigation I think from memory was likely to take until November. As for a trial, hopefully there will be a new judge appointed soon to ease the current backload of trials. So maybe another year after the committal hearing for a trial. It is hard to know but it will be a long time.

[alioop]

To provide an example of the timing for a recent murder trial in Brisbane's Supreme Court, here is a timeline of the Sica trial.


December 30, 2008:
Sica is charged with murder of the 3 Singh children in April 2003.
January 2009:
Sica applies for and is refused bail.
August 2009:
Sica's committal hearing begins. It goes for 94 days over the course of the next 18 months.
December 2009:
Sica makes a second application for bail. He later loses an appeal against this bail refusal.
December 2010:
Sica is committed to stand trial for murder.
August 2011:
Sica loses a bid for a judge-only trial. He argued a fair trial by jury would be impossible because of the intense media coverage.
January 31, 2012:
Sica pleads not guilty to three counts of murder on the first day of his Supreme Court trial in Brisbane.
June 27, 2012:
The jury retires to consider its verdict on the 76th day of the trial.
July 3, 2012:
Jury find Max Sica guilty of three counts of murder.
July 27, 2012 Sica lodges appeal against conviction and sentence.

This was the longest running trial in Qld history but the timing of the arrest to the start of the trial was 3 and a half years and he was in remand at Arthur Gorrie where GBC is, for that whole time.

[Rational]

Originally Posted by alioop

To provide an example of the timing for a recent murder trial in Brisbane's Supreme Court, here is a timeline of the Sica trial.


December 30, 2008:
Sica is charged with murder of the 3 Singh children in April 2003.
January 2009:
Sica applies for and is refused bail.
August 2009:
Sica's committal hearing begins. It goes for 94 days over the course of the next 18 months.
December 2009:
Sica makes a second application for bail. He later loses an appeal against this bail refusal.
December 2010:
Sica is committed to stand trial for murder.
August 2011:
Sica loses a bid for a judge-only trial. He argued a fair trial by jury would be impossible because of the intense media coverage.
January 31, 2012:
Sica pleads not guilty to three counts of murder on the first day of his Supreme Court trial in Brisbane.
June 27, 2012:
The jury retires to consider its verdict on the 76th day of the trial.
July 3, 2012:
Jury find Max Sica guilty of three counts of murder.
July 27, 2012 Sica lodges appeal against conviction and sentence.

This was the longest running trial in Qld history but the timing of the arrest to the start of the trial was 3 and a half years and he was in remand at Arthur Gorrie where GBC is, for that whole time.

Yes Alioop this is the Sica case but unless we know what the reaction of GBC will be to the brief of evidence or are privy to the advice that his legal team will provide to him, this case could take a totally different path. We will only know when it happens. JIMO

[alioop]

Originally Posted by Rational

Yes Alioop this is the Sica case but unless we know what the reaction of GBC will be to the brief of evidence or are privy to the advice that his legal team will provide to him, this case could take a totally different path. We will only know when it happens. JIMO

Yes totally agree with you Rational. He could plead guilty once his lawyer has given him advice having seen all the evidence or perhaps after the committal. Also the processes leading up to a trial may run smoother than the Sica trial. He caused delays by firing lawyers. Also if we get the new judge then the court can get through more pending trials. So indeed lots of variables. But it is not beyond the realms of possibilities that it could take 3 years.

[Liadan]

Originally Posted by alioop

Sorry minni, missed replying to your post earlier. The sept 9 court appearance is a committal mention, a procedural matter to make sure all parties are moving towards doing what they need to do like the prosecution handing over the evidence they have already been ordered to to by 20 August.

There will likely be more of these mentions and at some point a date for the actual committal hearing will be set for a magistrate to determine if there is sufficient evidence on which a jury could convict to send the defendant to trial in the District Court or Supreme Court. Some more info about the committal process is in this link

http://www.justice.qld.gov.au/justic...mittal-hearing

I think most people charged with murder get committed to stand trial as the police would usually have "sufficient evidence" either at the time of arrest or by the date of the committal. Obviously though the magistrate has to also be convinced that there is "sufficient evidence" The standard of proof is much lower than what is necessary to convict in a trial by a jury. For our American friends it is our equivalent of the US grand jury process, though quite a bit different.

If committed to trial by the magistrate, in this case due to the severity of the charge, namely murder, the accused person would ultimately be tried in the Supreme Court of Queensland.

GBC's committal hearing is not going to happen before next year. The forensic accounting investigation I think from memory was likely to take until November. As for a trial, hopefully there will be a new judge appointed soon to ease the current backload of trials. So maybe another year after the committal hearing for a trial. It is hard to know but it will be a long time.

Alioop- so we basically get the thumbs up that things are proceeding on this September date and nothing else? Is this date just a precaution for GBC to show to him and others before a judge that the police were not playing silly buggers and were serious about the arrest? Will any more information regarding the case be available on this basis? (that is;- will the police and investigators need to show the solicitors how serious they were about the arrest and give them facts and figures?)

I am guessing we will spend another 3 months in pergatory deliberating on the shaky info we have to date......

[alioop]

Originally Posted by Liadan

Alioop- so we basically get the thumbs up that things are proceeding on this September date and nothing else? Is this date just a precaution for GBC to show to him and others before a judge that the police were not playing silly buggers and were serious about the arrest? Will any more information regarding the case be available on this basis? (that is;- will the police and investigators need to show the solicitors how serious they were about the arrest and give them facts and figures?)

I am guessing we will spend another 3 months in pergatory deliberating on the shaky info we have to date......

It is unlikely to be very exciting and probably boring though who knows we may get a snippet of something. The magistrate will want to know if the handover of evidence by august 20 occurred and an update on the progress of the forensic accounting. One or both sides may raise something that the magistrate will have to make an order about. Then the magistrate will set another mention date I expect shortly after the forensic accounting info handover is due. No need for GBC to be there.

[Elspeth]

Originally Posted by alioop

Yes totally agree with you Rational. He could plead guilty once his lawyer has given him advice having seen all the evidence or perhaps after the committal. Also the processes leading up to a trial may run smoother than the Sica trial. He caused delays by firing lawyers. Also if we get the new judge then the court can get through more pending trials. So indeed lots of variables. But it is not beyond the realms of possibilities that it could take 3 years.

Alioop what happens if he pleads Not Guilty ?

[alioop]

Originally Posted by Elspeth

Alioop what happens if he pleads Not Guilty ?

Then it goes to trial, though he can change his plea at any time throughout the process.

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[summer_breeze]

A new thread has been started, and can be found at the below link. This thread will close in a half hour. (12:15 EST)

Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #38 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

Allison Baden-Clay - GENERAL DISCUSSION THREAD #38 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community