The Duct Tape Match #3

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sleutherontheside said:
I can't help but point out the coincidence between the term "huck" towels and the Florida Supreme Court ruling in HUCK regarding duct tape on a person after death is not logical.
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I thought it was a bit strange also. I'm not familiar with the case but I have seen "Huck" on WS.
 
BondJamesBond said:
...am in the process of performing a similar experiment, Friday.

I am attempting to separate the vodka from the lillet kina, and I'm finding that..."with the passage of time"...the ratio remains the same. ;)

However, in your experiment w/ the polyester & cotton fibers you are on the mark... that as time approaches infinity the ratio will approach 100% polyester. Important to note, though...that...in a blended fiber the surface area of each fiber isn't completely exposed. In other words...some cotton fibers will be shielded from the elements by the polyester fiber next to it...being protected from disintigration. IOW...it'll take longer for some of the cotton fibers in a blended fabric to 'disintegrate' than it will the cotton fibers in a pure cotton fabric - when exposed to the same conditions.


JWG - you, Sir, do some amazing work. Thanks for taking the time to share the brilliant observations & insights.


...now...maybe I'm doing something wrong. :waitasec: With or without the lemon peel this time... :martini:
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Some would "Vesper" in your ear that it should be with lemon peel but I prefer mine without. :tipsy:
 
BondJamesBond said:
...am in the process of performing a similar experiment, Friday.

I am attempting to separate the vodka from the lillet kina, and I'm finding that..."with the passage of time"...the ratio remains the same. ;)

However, in your experiment w/ the polyester & cotton fibers you are on the mark... that as time approaches infinity the ratio will approach 100% polyester. Important to note, though...that...in a blended fiber the surface area of each fiber isn't completely exposed. In other words...some cotton fibers will be shielded from the elements by the polyester fiber next to it...being protected from disintigration. IOW...it'll take longer for some of the cotton fibers in a blended fabric to 'disintegrate' than it will the cotton fibers in a pure cotton fabric - when exposed to the same conditions.


JWG - you, Sir, do some amazing work. Thanks for taking the time to share the brilliant observations & insights.


...now...maybe I'm doing something wrong. :waitasec: With or without the lemon peel this time... :martini:
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Like the remnants of Caylee's tee shirt. Let's pretend for example that the neck portion and the letters of the tee shirt that remained were
50/50 poly/cotton ... and all that remains is the poly in those items after being in the swamp for so long. You buy another shirt, same label, same color, same manufacturer...Do you say they are different because the new one has a poly/cotton neck and letters, but the other one doesn't? NO MATCH?
Simply ridiculous.
 
lizzysf said:
Like the remnants of Caylee's tee shirt. Let's pretend for example that the neck portion and the letters of the tee shirt that remained were
50/50 poly/cotton ... and all that remains is the poly in those items after being in the swamp for so long. You buy another shirt, same label, same color, same manufacturer...Do you say they are different because the new one has a poly/cotton neck and letters, but the other one doesn't? NO MATCH?
Simply ridiculous.
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:waitasec: You lost me there, lizzy.

Guess I would offer that extrapolating & simplifying things is at times very useful, but, can be misleading too. I'm sure that I'm missing the obvious because I haven't followed the details...so, I'll try to pay a little closer attention. Or if you wanna spell it out for me I'd appreciate being clued in...just remember to type slowly and use small words :)
 
BondJamesBond said:
:waitasec: You lost me there, lizzy.

Guess I would offer that extrapolating & simplifying things is at times very useful, but, can be misleading too. I'm sure that I'm missing the obvious because I haven't followed the details...so, I'll try to pay a little closer attention. Or if you wanna spell it out for me I'd appreciate being clued in...just remember to type slowly and use small words :)
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Just saying that the two exact shirts, with exact materials will not be the same after one has been in the swamp for months, and the other has not. The cotton portion would disinegrate in the swamp shirt... The fiber makeup under a microscope would be different for obvious reasons. It's the same argument with the duct tape.

;) It was more of a lateral comparison of 2 items from the dump site than a simplistic analysis of your post.
 
lizzysf said:
Like the remnants of Caylee's tee shirt. Let's pretend for example that the neck portion and the letters of the tee shirt that remained were
50/50 poly/cotton ... and all that remains is the poly in those items after being in the swamp for so long. You buy another shirt, same label, same color, same manufacturer...Do you say they are different because the new one has a poly/cotton neck and letters, but the other one doesn't? NO MATCH?
Simply ridiculous.
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Are you referring to the "microscopically inconsistent" statement made about the results of the FBI comparison on the duct tapes?
 
So many say the cotton would disenegrate, yet they found blue cotton fibers.
 
notthatsmart said:
So many say the cotton would disenegrate, yet they found blue cotton fibers.
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I noticed in CA's recent depo that she made reference to a blue shirt that coordinated with shorts and skirts. Many other WS have offered viable alternatives to various cloths (towels, etc. ) that may have contained the blue fibers. I would also like to offer up that any denim article of clothing would undoubtedly leave blue fibers. There is also the infamous blue dress KC wore to Fusion on Friday 6/20. Blue fibers indeed...
 
notthatsmart said:
So many say the cotton would disenegrate, yet they found blue cotton fibers.
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I believe a more accurate statement would be that cotton would deteriorate. I don't think anyone should imply that a garment would disintegrate as that would leave little or nothing of the garment to even document. A cotton garment could easily deteriorate yet leave a remnant behind. I find it unlikely that an entire garment would disintegrate leaving no trace of its existence.
In relation to the tape.....while likely based upon exposure to elements one piece may differ from another another....the lack of exact match in chemical characteristics should not mean that we discount alternative findings because they were due to different rates of deterioration. One can't assume that the tapes were exposed to exact elements.
 
lizzysf said:
True...we have George Mr. Auto guy and Cindy the nurse who used to assist in ortho surgeries and could have brought a stack home for George to use in the garage.
I found a wholesaler who sells them and the same blue towels are offered to mechanics and hospitals... same towel. Multi-industry use.
George could have had them from his auto dealing days in the used car business...to change oil etc. when he took in cars before he sold them. Also, the materials in the towels vary from company to company...some all cotton, some high poly, some mixed.
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Let's just suppose (emphasis on 'suppose') GA/CA had these towels (I have a big stack of them) and at some point KC needed towels for say, the same reason she used paper towels. Or is it possible she placed any of these towels inside the bags with Caylee and they came in contact w/ the tape?
Just thinkin' out loud!
:idea:
 
notthatsmart said:
From what I gathered. The duct tape was used on the can to cover up the air hole so the fumes wouldn't come out. So here are a few questions:

(I remove the tape from the air hole so the gas will pour faster)

When Tony Lazzaro poured the gas into Casey's car, did he remove duct tape from the air hole? Are his prints on the duct tape?

When LE confinscated the can, did they remove duct tape and examine it? Is this the duct tape in question?

When LE returned the can, did it have duct tape on it? George said it did not.

When LE confinscated the can the second time, did it have duct tape on it? Is this the duct tape in question? George says he did not put the duct tape on the can.
When Casey poured the gas into her car, did she remove the duct tape from the air hole? Are her finger prints on the gas can duct tape?
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bbm~
don't know if this matters to you or if you have read all the statements, or if it has already been mentioned, but according to Tony L, he did not pour the gas into KC's car IIRC, she wouldn't let him. Wonder why? :waitasec:
 
JWG~if you see this, I know it may be a stupid question, but I know you have done lots of research into the duct tape. Do you by any chance know whether Shurtape and the storage company that Lee worked for a couple of yrs ago Shurgard have anything whatsoever to do with one another? Prolly not, but in reading his depo it just made me curious.
 
JWG said:
I took a look at the images of Q62, Q63, Q64, Q66 (gas can tape) and Q104 to see if it was possible to determine if / how the pieces were originally attached to each other. :waitasec:

When one cuts or tears duct tape, the edges stretch and deform, so with only a handful of images to work from, edge matching is not easy. No doubt the FBI at some point in their work carefully laid out and smoothed the tape so that they could do edge-matching. That is hard to do with the images we have. :rolleyes:

But, we can do logo-matching, particularly if we look at the backs of the tape. The cutting was done through the logos, but at differing locations, making the matching not particularly difficult. :thumb: Oddly enough, I believe the pieces of tape from the remains were attached in the order the FBI numbered them (I think this is purely coincidence).

Referring to the images of the back of each piece of tape, I believe the right edge of Q62 was attached to the left edge of Q63; and the right edge of Q63 was attached to the left edge of Q64.

Black and white low-quality images of Q104 are shown on discovery pages 9758 - 9759. The first image is of the front, and the Henkel logo is visible on the left. The location of the tear through the logo is consistent with the location of the tear on the right side (of the back) of Q64. Thus, I conclude the right of Q64 was connected to the left of Q104.
A big question is whether or not Q66 from the gas can was ever attached at either end of the Q62 - Q104 strip. :waitasec:

The location of the full Q66 logo near the "bottom" edge is inconsistent with having been attached to the right side of Q62.

The quality of the Q104 image is not only poor, but the right-side is badly damaged. The best I could do is take some rough measurements (logo to logo, which are not precise because the image is of a piece of tape that has not been flattened out or straightened.

That being said, the measurements I took show that the location of the torn logo that should be on the right side (front image of tape) of Q104 is consistent with the location of the torn logo on the "top edge" of the gas can tape.

This does not tell us if the gas can tape was taken from the roll before or after the tape was put on the skull. This depends on the orientation of the logo to the leading-edge of the tape roll. If the top of the logo is toward the leading-edge, the gas can tape was removed after the tape was put on the remains. If the bottom of the logo is toward the leading-edge, then the gas can tape was removed from the roll sometime before tape was put on Caylee. Not sure it really matters.

As I did this, I noticed another thing that shows Q66 probably came from the same roll as the remains tape. It has to do with where the logo itself is cut at the sides of the tape.

Remember when we did the duct tape survey and one person - FairNBalanced - managed to find a roll of the rare tape? Here is one of the images posted, with an annotation by me showing that the logo lettering is cut on the right edge of the tape just after the comma:

View attachment 5742

The back of Q62 has a location that quite clearly shows where the logo is cut. Notice it is just after the "I" in "Inc":

View attachment 5743

This means FairNBalanced no longer needs to worry about OCSO coming after him as the mystery nanny. :yow: The other pieces of remains tape also show the same cutoff, although not quite as nicely due to image quality, adhesive residue, or dirt.

Now take a look at the gas can tape (not the best image quality from the media):

View attachment 5744

Think maybe we have a match? :eek:
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JWG...you make my head hurt! lol

Okay, I've been looking at this and here's what I've come up with:

It's all from the same roll (lmao)...seriously though,

The right edge of Q62 was not attached to the left edge of Q63.
The right edge of Q63 was DEFINITELY attached to the left edge of Q64.
The right edge of Q64 was MOST LIKELY attached to the left edge of Q104.
The right edge of Q62 MAY HAVE BEEN attached to the left side of Q66.

I will now inundate you with pictures hoping you can see what I see. On my little handy-dandy screen calipers the read-out between two consecutive Henkel brands in the same location laterally is 260.

q62measure1.jpg

q62measure2.jpg

q62measure3.jpg

q62measure4.jpg

q63measure1.jpg

q63measure2.jpg

q63measure3.jpg

q63measure4.jpg

q64measureleft.jpg

q64measureright1.jpg

q64measureright2.jpg

q66measure1.jpg

q66measure2.jpg

q104measure1.jpg


*NOTE ON Q104 - if you take into account the creases the measurement over to the first Henkel stamp from the left closely matches what is needed to be torn from the right side of Q64 - reading would be 225.
 
Okay, Valhall, you seriously need to bill LE/FBI for all your work. This exhibit is trial-ready! Fig A, Plate 1 caliber. (JWG - I hope you have invoices ready as well.)
 
In the Greta interview at the A home there is a coverlet on KC's bed that looks light blue. I'm assuming cotton since it is Florida.
 
WOW... :shocked2: Val,

You've got the tools (handy-dandy screen calipers :biglaugh:), AND you know how to use them AND you show your work! Thanks for working that out and sharing it with us! I, for one, am very visually oriented so an exhibit like you've created here is appreciated! Mad Props to you :rocker:
 
*taps on JWG's forehead*

DID YOU EVER GET TO LOOK AT THESE?

Still waiting to hear your take on the measurements.
 
Valhall said:
*taps on JWG's forehead*

DID YOU EVER GET TO LOOK AT THESE?

Still waiting to hear your take on the measurements.
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Of course, when I took my measurements I did not have the digi-calipers to work with. I like those. Where do I get a set? :waitasec:

I see nothing wrong with your analysis, and knowing you it is probably a lot more accurate that mine. IMO, however, the kicker is where the logo is cut off at the tape roll edge. FnB's tape ended at a different spot on the edge than the gas can and skull tape. That tells me there is a very, very high probability for a match here.

Would be nice to see some high resolution images from the News videos taken of the Caylee posters hanging with the Henkel tape.
 
cecybeans said:
When I wrap packages, sometimes I tear off two or three pieces of tape and put them on my wrist so I can pull them off quickly to apply.

What if KC did that with the duct tape? What if she cut several pieces and say, stuck the ends on her shirt or the bottom edge of her shorts to hold them ready? Duct tape peels off fabric much more easily than skin. It looks like she is wearing dark blue shorts and a lighter blue top in the Blockbuster video. I don't know if she changed after going to AL's or if she was wearing that when she got there.
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Nurses tear off the number of pieces of tape they will need ahead of time, like for instance when doing a dressing change. They often get so used to doing it that way that even when taping other things (non medical) they will do the same.
 
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