Connecticut school district on lockdown after shooting report at a Newtown elemen #5

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SwampMama said:
As a former elementary teacher I know there is a huge imbalance in the ratio of male teachers to female teachers and I bet AL knew that too. Sandy Hook only had one male staff member listed and I think he was the custodian. I did see a few names that could be either male or female but were more likely female. So there was probably just one man in that whole building of women and children.
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I hadn't really reflected on that before, to be honest. The school my kids went to for elementary had an unusually high number of male teachers, even in K and 1st, which is usually dominated by female teachers. It makes me wonder if that was intentional on the principal's part because of this sort of thing, or for another reason all together.
 
Pensfan said:
“Nancy told me he was burning himself with a lighter. In the ankles or arms or something,” he recalled of a conversation they had about a year ago. “It was like he was trying to feel something.”

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nat...on-adam-worse-article-1.1221505#ixzz2FHk6HEsz

Uh...nope. Self mutilation is an attempt to keep suicidal feelings and emotional pain at bay by relieving psychological tension. Ten percent of self mutilators will eventually commit suicide.

Yes, he would have been a target for the bullies, but I think his bizarre behavior scared people whether they wanted to admit it or not.

The bizarre behavior of unmedicated people with Schizotypal Personality Disorder and schizophrenia scares me and a lot of other old psych nurses, old psych techs, psych residents and old psychiatrists that I know.
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BBM

Pens, is your assessment that he was mentally ill or mentally disordered? Or a co-morbidity of both?

I'm putting my question this way because any earlier article on the Daily Beast regarding the Aurora CO shooter's motivations indicated that most mass shooters are not necessarily mentally ill, but disordered and feeding a fantasy of deep-seated rage against the world.

I realize it's a complex issue, but most mentally ill people I've known (and I've known quite a few I'm sad to say), aren't capable of planning and executing something like this.

I will be glad to locate the link, but this thread is so big and I wanted to ask while you were still on line.

TIA!
 
I work with kids who are diagnosed with HFA (high-functioning autism) and Asperger syndrome every day. Attributing this to autism alone just doesn't feel right to me at all. I think we'll learn in the coming days and weeks that there was much more going on with AL.
 
Pensfan said:
There is a continuum of self-harm and the higher the behaviors are on this scale, the more likely the person is to have suicidal thoughts. Cutting and burning oneself are at the top of the scale. Biting, rubbing, and scratching are at the bottom.

Some of the self-injurous behavior that autistic children exhibit are sensory integration dysfunction behaviors. My daughter was adopted from an orphanage. She exhibited two self-injurous behaviors during the first six months after her adoption (hair pulling and occasional head banging). The Early Intervention Program worked with her for several hours every week with their sensory integration methods and equipment. Her behavior was almost involuntary. Using a lighter to burn oneself is not an involuntary action.
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o/t
Did she ever head bang in the bed on a pillow to sleep?
OR during her sleep?
Have you ever heard of that?
 
Abby Normal Again said:
...

Warning- unqualified opinions ahead:
I personally believe he was misdiagnosed if he were, in fact, diagnosed with Aspergers. I think sometimes, especially as young humans, these differences can be masked or appear as something else entirely. I personally don't think they always get it correct right off the bat- and not AT ALL to their fault, but just because kids are so "in process" developmentally speaking. That's one reason I believe so strongly in staying consistent with mental health professionals if you find yourself in any need of one.
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I think his symptoms all appear to fit Aspergers. So what makes you think he was misdiagnosed? Assuming that what he was diagnosed with, since we don't even know that for sure.
 
Pensfan said:
Yes, some of the symptoms overlap, but Asperger's individuals are not known for homicidal mass shootings.
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What kind of mental disorder is known for homicidal mass shootings?
 
CatMama3 said:
BBM

Pens, is your assessment that he was mentally ill or mentally disordered? Or a co-morbidity of both?

I'm putting my question this way because any earlier article on the Daily Beast regarding the Aurora CO shooter's motivations indicated that most mass shooters are not necessarily mentally ill, but disordered and feeding a fantasy of deep-seated rage against the world.

I realize it's a complex issue, but most mentally ill people I've known (and I've known quite a few I'm sad to say), aren't capable of planning and executing something like this.

I will be glad to locate the link, but this thread is so big and I wanted to ask while you were still on line.

TIA!
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Psychotic people are not irrational in every aspect of their thinking. They may think rationally about other subjects until they coincide with their specific delusion. For example: I cared for a very nice patient who was hospitalized approx 2 times each year for psychosis. He loved to play dominoes and chat about superficial topics. If you didn't mention the words "Navy, water, boat, US government or Veterans Hospital" you might never know that he was psychotic. Once the topic veered off the weather, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and other superficial topics, anyone could tell that he was very mentally ill. Before his medications began to work, he believed the psych unit was a locked submarine. :)

I don't know what this killer's mental diagnosis should have been, but it is becoming obvious that he wasn't just autistic.
 
FootballMom said:
^^^which also closely describes symptoms/behaviours present in Aspergers including paranoia.

http://aut.sagepub.com/content/5/2/147.abstract
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Not trying to generalize here, because really, there's as much variability in people diagnosed with an ASD as there is in the "typically developing" population (one of the coolest things I've learned since starting my job), but I think it's worth pointing out that a lot of people with ASD have a really hard time with metaphorical or imaginative thinking, which distinguishes it from disorders which have delusions as a symptom. Many, many kids and adults with an ASD diagnosis are extremely literal.

Unfortunately, if "our" kids (as in, the ones who we work with in our lab) are paranoid at all, it's because their lack of social skills and stereotyped language and interests make them an easy target for bullies.
 
jjenny said:
What kind of mental disorder is known for homicidal mass shootings?
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none???
of course to say that they were "normal" makes no sense... moo

"Most mass murderers are male, white, conservative and come from relatively stable, lower-middle-class backgrounds. They are not usually adopted, illegitimate or institutionalized as children."

"There are three types of mass murderers, the family annihilators, the paramilitary enthusiasts, and the disgruntled workers. They all tend to be young, white, males with easy access to weapons. Unemployment, loneliness, a family breakup, or just a tongue lashing from a supervisor can trigger their deadly rage."

"Most rampagers tend to save the last bullet for themselves. Those that don't are usually declared legally insane"

http://www.mayhem.net/Crime/murder.html
 
Pensfan said:
Psychotic people are not irrational in every aspect of their thinking. They may think rationally about other subjects until they coincide with their specific delusion. For example: I cared for a very nice patient who was hospitalized approx 2 times each year for psychosis. He loved to play dominoes and chat about superficial topics. If you didn't mention the words "Navy, water, boat, US government or Veterans Hospital" you might never know that he was psychotic. Once the topic veered off the weather, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and other superficial topics, anyone could tell that he was very mentally ill. Before his medications began to work, he believed the psych unit was a locked submarine. :)

I don't know what this killer's mental diagnosis should have been, but it is becoming obvious that he wasn't just autistic.
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I agree, and I would say that kids and adults with an ASD diagnosis and normal language development (I mostly work with kids with a language impairment) are NOT delusional. They just lack the social skills to communicate adequately about things outside their field of interest. Not sure if this makes sense - Pens knows way more than I do.
 
helpful said:
I agree, and I would say that kids and adults with an ASD diagnosis and normal language development (I mostly work with kids with a language impairment) are NOT delusional. They just lack the social skills to communicate adequately about things outside their field of interest. Not sure if this makes sense - Pens knows way more than I do.
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There haven't been a shred of information to suggest that AL was delusional.
 
jjenny said:
There haven't been a shred of information to suggest that AL was delusional.
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No. But people have suggested that an ASD diagnosis was at the root of AL's issues, and I'm trying to point out that there was likely much more than just an autism spectrum disorder at play here.
 
Pensfan said:
Psychotic people are not irrational in every aspect of their thinking. They may think rationally about other subjects until they coincide with their specific delusion. For example: I cared for a very nice patient who was hospitalized approx 2 times each year for psychosis. He loved to play dominoes and chat about superficial topics. If you didn't mention the words "Navy, water, boat, US government or Veterans Hospital" you might never know that he was psychotic. Once the topic veered off the weather, the Pittsburgh Steelers, and other superficial topics, anyone could tell that he was very mentally ill. Before his medications began to work, he believed the psych unit was a locked submarine. :)

I don't know what this killer's mental diagnosis should have been, but it is becoming obvious that he wasn't just autistic.
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BBM

ITA that Austism on any level was not the sole issue.

And I have seen amongst my own family members that "weird slip and slide" of irrational thought and rational thought. My heart goes out to your former patient.

I guess I want a clear-cut answer of "he was this/he was that" because I am having a real problem reconciling how anyone could be so consciously hell-bent on slaughtering a group of little children who are huddled together and terrified.
 
Pensfan said:
There is a continuum of self-harm and the higher the behaviors are on this scale, the more likely the person is to have suicidal thoughts. Cutting and burning oneself are at the top of the scale. Biting, rubbing, and scratching are at the bottom.

Some of the self-injurous behavior that autistic children exhibit are sensory integration dysfunction behaviors. My daughter was adopted from an orphanage. She exhibited two self-injurous behaviors during the first six months after her adoption (hair pulling and occasional head banging). The Early Intervention Program worked with her for several hours every week with their sensory integration methods and equipment. Her behavior was almost involuntary. Using a lighter to burn oneself is not an involuntary action.
Click to expand...

Hhmmm... interesting... It's getting late so I'm not going to go off grabbing links but I can provide personal first hand experience in a relatively short manner. ;)

I'm very familiar with self-injury (several methods from "high to low"). I tend to believe that while the risk of suicide may be greater than the average "healthy" population the overall risk is relatively lower than one might expect. It is usually an attempt to soothe an absence of or diminished ability to feel and of course a large dose of anxiety. I'll have to look into the stats and studies more tomorrow.

I am sorry to hear about your daughter's sensory challenges. My son's sensory integration issues are no where near your daughters but I am familiar with the spectrum. We are very lucky that he is better able to cope as he has gotten older. You'd never know he has any challenges whatsoever until you try to cook a meal for him that he'd eat/enjoy, buy clothing, have him write something down (legibly) or transcribe notes from a chalk board to paper.

I think it is possible he (AL) was either misdiagnosed when he was younger since childhood onset of schizophrenia is so very rare and that he presented with other rare traits... however I think it may be more likely as he got older that his Aspergers posed more problems than he was able to manage which in turn increased the likelihood of any number of personality disorders becoming extremely problematic.

JMO... hoping we will eventually learn the full extent and factual diagnosis.
 
As far as I know, not a single person said AL was hearing voices or was delusional. So I have no idea as to why we'd be "diagnosing" him with childhood onset schizophrenia. I saw a TV show about a child with early onset schizophrenia. That child had a whole bunch of delusions.
I don't see anything to suggest AL had a whole bunch of delusions.
 
FootballMom said:
Hhmmm... interesting... It's getting late so I'm not going to go off grabbing links but I can provide personal first hand experience in a relatively short manner. ;)

I'm very familiar with self-injury (several methods from "high to low"). I tend to believe that while the risk of suicide may be greater than the average "healthy" population the overall risk is relatively lower than one might expect. It is usually an attempt to soothe an absence of or diminished ability to feel and of course a large dose of anxiety. I'll have to look into the stats and studies more tomorrow.

I am sorry to hear about your daughter's sensory challenges. My son's sensory integration issues are no where near your daughters but I am familiar with the spectrum. We are very lucky that he is better able to cope as he has gotten older. You'd never know he has any challenges whatsoever until you try to cook a meal for him that he'd eat/enjoy, buy clothing, have him write something down (legibly) or transcribe notes from a chalk board to paper.

I think it is possible he was either misdiagnosed when he was younger since childhood onset of schizophrenia is so very rare and that he presented with other rare traits... however I think it may be more likely as he got older that his Aspergers posed more problems than he was able to manage which in turn increased the likelihood of any number of personality disorders becoming extremely problematic.

JMO... hoping we will eventually learn the full extent and factual diagnosis.
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Thank you for your kind words. My sensory seeking daughter was adopted into a family with 3 older brothers, so she quickly adjusted. The only remnant I can see at this time is the occupying of the bathroom to brush and straighten her hair obsessively, but that might be normal for most teen girls in a humid climate. lol
 
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