The cries for help

Status
Not open for further replies.
How would he know? I don't recall him saying this in the 911 call or the interviews, but I didn't watch the second one all the way through.

bbm

During the initial 911 call, the boy had no idea who was the shorter stocky person and who was the tall skinny person.

Later, after the shooting, he would have known. Perhaps that later physique/stature knowledge is what enabled the boy to decide it was Trayvon lying on the ground screaming and not the stockier George.

Body type may have been easier to distinguish in the dark than the color of a jacket or T-shirt.

imo
 
bbm

During the initial 911 call, the boy had no idea who was the shorter stocky person and who was the tall skinny person.

Later, after the shooting, he would have known. Perhaps that later physique/stature knowledge is what enabled the boy to decide it was Trayvon lying on the ground screaming and not the stockier George.

Body type may have been easier to distinguish in the dark than the color of a jacket or T-shirt.

imo

He saw a single individual on the ground. Of course he's not going to know if he saw the short stocky one or the tall skinny one. To be able to do so he'd have to be able to compare them, or at the very least the one he did see would need to be standing.
 
While this scenario makes perfect sense and seems logical to some, to me, it sounds unbelievable and more than incredible. IMO the evidence does not support this version of events. And by evidence, I'm talking about GZ's stories, FT's stories, his brother's and his father's stories, the video of him at the jail, and the information about the call with Trayvon's girlfriend.

The fight described sounds very graphic and scary, the attacks GZ's friend, dad and brother describe sound horrific and scary. A 45 second fight, where you are literally getting the life beat out of you, would definitely leave some signs of this life and death struggle. Both parties would show these signs of this life and death struggle. Let's just address that first.

I don't know who has ever seen two men fighting before, struggling around on the ground. I've come upon it more than once, so this is my own opinion based on my observations from previous experience. Once these men have been seperated, there is disheveled clothing, hair all a mess, blood on each other's clothing, sometimes clothes are torn, sweat, heavy breathing, grass and dirt stains on clothing, sometimes people even lose shoes or pieces of clothing come off. These are not generally life and death struggles but a couple of people definitely trying to get the best of the other.

Now...we have this video of GZ at the police station at approximately what? 30 minutes after this life or death struggle, swallowing blood, having his head slammed into the concrete over and over until he was losing conciousness? Take a good look at that footage. His clothes appear dry and clean, not torn, certainly not disheveled in any way, his shirt is tucked in for goodness sake. He does not have ONE bandage on him, not even for the little bitty cut on the back of his head. Not even a bandaid. He is handcuffed behind his back and walks with no difficulty, climbs out of a squad car, maintains his balance, which is difficult for drunks to do so I would imagine it would be difficult for someone woozy from getting his head bashed into concrete repeatedly a mere 30 minutes or so before. He does not appear to be in distress, upset or in any way showing signs that a mere 30 minutes before he was not just in a fight but in a life or death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/george-zimmerman-police-surveillance-16024475

Ok, now why it is difficult to understand why Trayvon would be screaming. Well, that is also very simple IMO. You're absolutely right, it makes no sense to scream if you've got the upper hand, so IMO Trayvon did not have the upper hand. We will just have to agree to disagree on this front. I believe that those screams come from Trayvon. I will explain why I think John and this other witness (whose mother has said he was coerced by the way) describe seeing Trayvon on top. IMO I see the scenario as such...

I believe that GZ exited his vehicle, followed Trayvon, saw the direction he was going and knew that he could cut him off at the cut through further down between the townhomes. He hung up with the call taker and didn't give a location to meet the officers because he had every intention of heading him off, detaining him, and presenting him to the police like a trophy. In other words, playing the cop. Problem with that is that George is NOT a police officer in a uniform and does not have any authority to detain anyone. In fact, he is a STRANGER! So....he cuts Trayvon off at the cut through. I believe that Trayvon had stopped "walking fast, running" whatever, because he believed he had lost GZ. GZ steps out, hence the question from Trayvon, why are you following me? GZ, not in a police uniform with no authority, supposedly says what are you doing here. Followed by sounds of a push or something. IMO I believe that GZ reached out to grab Trayvon to detain him. Trayvon, rightly so, is frightened by this stranger and pushes or punches GZ, GZ falls back and hits the back of his head on something that creates that small cut on the back of his head in the picture. There may be another one a little higher up but hard to see since the photo is washed out. And note that this photo was 3 minutes after a shot that ended a life and death struggle, yet there is no grass, no mud, no dirt, no debris, nothing on his jacket or his head and the blood does not appear disturbed from it's path of flow and there is nothing like grass or anything else stuck in this wet, fresh blood. Not sure how that happened, considering he supposedly was getting smashed on the sidewalk and then moved his head to the grass. I would expect to see blood smeared, grass and debris in the blood and cut due to the life and death struggle.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/video/zim...ive-photo-night-trayvon-martin-death-16178849

As GZ is going to the ground he is holding onto Trayvon pulling him down to the ground as well. If you didn't know any better and hadn't seen the beginning of the altercation, maybe you would think that Trayvon "was on top" beating someone up. I'm sure during this struggling there is hollering and yelling going on, which draws some attention. Now, IMO GZ is pizzed that this kid has had the audacity to defy his authority, remember...he was already angry that the a$$holes always get away and believed that Trayvon was a *advertiser censored**ing punk up to no good. Now...most important...Trayvon has absolutely NO idea who this guy is! GZ is the one with all the information! All Trayvon knows is some stranger was following him, he ran, he thought he'd lost him and then all the sudden the stranger reappears and tries to question him. For WHAT? WHY? I'm sure Trayvon was concerned, that might be putting it mildly. He has every right to try to get away from this stranger, using whatever means possible.

So...they struggle around, GZ thinks...well, I have my gun, if I pull it out maybe this kid will stop and just let me detain him. Again...GZ has all the info. Trayvon has no idea this stranger's intentions, this stranger has tried to restrict his freedom of movement, question him, and now this stranger pulls out a gun! IMO Trayvon is terrified. Now, not only has this stranger followed him, cut him off, questioned him, grabbed him, now he's pulled a gun! IMO Trayvon begins screaming for his life, terrified, struggling to get away. GZ struggles with him, he's angry that this criminal (in his mind) will not comply with his demands. His friend FT says he has fed up issues. He is fed up! He shoots Trayvon, ending the screams. He puts his hands on Trayvons back, probably pats him down, no weapons, no stolen property. Now he better come up with a story that he was in fear of his life because I think he clearly realizes that he has screwed up! Call my wife, tell her I've shot someone!

He is a CHL holder so he knows the law. This is some dead criminal, it will all blow over. I'll just say he attacked me, I was in fear for my life and I had to shoot him. Problem was, it was an unarmed, non criminal teenager who had parents that were not going to take it lying down and fought for justice. So here we are.

I hope I did that linking thing right. It doesn't look right to me and I can't ever seem to get it to work so please forgive me. I got the info from the Media Thread. All of the above is MY OPINION and my interpretation of what I have seen so far.


I think George put his gun in the waistband of his pants when he got out of his truck and let Trayvon see it because you know these a###### always get away,and that is what started the the life or death struggle.

That makes sense to me. Trayvon would of been facing a man that was following him , confronted him and now had a gun.
 
He saw a single individual on the ground. Of course he's not going to know if he saw the short stocky one or the tall skinny one. To be able to do so he'd have to be able to compare them, or at the very least the one he did see would need to be standing.

And he never said anything about individual on the ground being tall/skinny to begin with.
In fact he gave no description of the individual whatsoever, except for the red t-shirt.
 
Peeps! :seeya:

Are we still discussing "The Cries for Help"?

Totally OK to speculate within reason, but please and always tie it back to "The Cries for Help" in this thread.


This post lands at random and :tyou:
 
Didn't the mother claim she was upset with LE because they were "coaching" her son about what color the person was wearing who was on the ground? jmo

If you listen to his 911 call he already made statements and that was before he even talked to the police.So IMO something is not making sense with the mothers statements about police coaching him.In the 911 call his sister talked first then he talked I don't believe his mom was there when he talked to 911.He did not see who was screaming again it is his opinion it was the younger one.

ETA He did say one in the red shirt was on the ground.
 
If you listen to his 911 call he already made statements and that was before he even talked to the police.So IMO something is not making sense with the mothers statements about police coaching him.In the 911 call his sister talked first then he talked I don't believe his mom was there when he talked to 911.He did not see who was screaming again it is his opinion it was the younger one.

ETA He did say one in the red shirt was on the ground.

She wasn't, she said she told him to walk the dog as she was leaving.
 
Screams sound like someone in pain like from a broken nose,maybe his head being slammed on the ground.The screams seem muffled at some points like someone is trying to keep you from screaming by putting a hand over your mouth.JMO but it wailing in pain I mostly hear.According to the undertaker TM was not bruised so IMO that points to GZ as the screamer and also some eyewitnesses who actually saw who was screaming said it was GZ in red.
 
Screams sound like someone in pain like from a broken nose,maybe his head being slammed on the ground.The screams seem muffled at some points like someone is trying to keep you from screaming by putting a hand over your mouth.JMO but it wailing in pain I mostly hear.According to the undertaker TM was not bruised so IMO that points to GZ as the screamer and also some eyewitnesses who actually saw who was screaming said it was GZ in red.

Funny this was not addressed much during the bond hearing.
 
Screams sound like someone in pain like from a broken nose,maybe his head being slammed on the ground.The screams seem muffled at some points like someone is trying to keep you from screaming by putting a hand over your mouth.JMO but it wailing in pain I mostly hear.According to the undertaker TM was not bruised so IMO that points to GZ as the screamer and also some eyewitnesses who actually saw who was screaming said it was GZ in red.

His dad said they all recognized George's voice on the tape as the one screaming. Wonder how many times they heard him scream with a broken nose and blood flowing down his throat? Usually if you have something flowing down your throat and try screaming you choke.
 
His dad said they all recognized George's voice on the tape as the one screaming. Wonder how many times they heard him scream with a broken nose and blood flowing down his throat? Usually if you have something flowing down your throat and try screaming you choke.

Of course, I'm not an expert in the field - I've only taken a few classes - but I'd wager that if you go to anyone's friends/family and said "Your son/daughter/friend was shot to death. We need you to listen to this tape." .. then asked them if the screams were of their son/daughter/friend, they would say it was. I think the brain would make that connection regardless of what the screams sounded like due to the fact that they were first told "Your son/daughter/friend was shot to death." Similar to how the brain automatically connects the line in optical illusions.

Again, not an expert, but I'd say because none of the friends/family could say definitively based on that, none of their confirmations should be allowed.
 
Of course, I'm not an expert in the field - I've only taken a few classes - but I'd wager that if you go to anyone's friends/family and said "Your son/daughter/friend was shot to death. We need you to listen to this tape." .. then asked them if the screams were of their son/daughter/friend, they would say it was. I think the brain would make that connection regardless of what the screams sounded like due to the fact that they were first told "Your son/daughter/friend was shot to death." Similar to how the brain automatically connects the line in optical illusions.

Again, not an expert, but I'd say because none of the friends/family could say definitively based on that, none of their confirmations should be allowed.

BBM

I only took a few classes too but I think something that would skew the results of any real test would be the grieving parent not wanting to admit the last words they hear from a child is their terrorized screams for help. If it was me I and I heard something like that my field of vision would turn red as I was going after the person playing the tape. IMO
 
BBM

I only took a few classes too but I think something that would skew the results of any real test would be the grieving parent not wanting to admit the last words they hear from a child is their terrorized screams for help. If it was me I and I heard something like that my field of vision would turn red as I was going after the person playing the tape. IMO

I wasn't very specific in my example, but in real world I couldn't see a detective doing this without first saying something to the lines of "We have some audio that may help us determine what happened that night, it may be hard for you to listen to but we really need more information on this audio. Do you think you could help us by listening?"
 
I wasn't very specific in my example, but in real world I couldn't see a detective doing this without first saying something to the lines of "We have some audio that may help us determine what happened that night, it may be hard for you to listen to but we really need more information on this audio. Do you think you could help us by listening?"


In this case in the real world the parents never heard these tapes until the city decided to release them 3 weeks later and gave them a heads up and let them listen to them.. It doesn't appear the LE ever played the screams for the family to identify.

.......................................................................

Trayvon Martin Case: 911 Audio Released Of Teen Shot By Neighborhood Watch Captain (AUDIO)

Posted: 03/16/2012 9:54 pm Updated: 03/19/2012 4:47 pm


SANFORD, Fla. — Police have released audio 911 tapes in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin, the unarmed teenager allegedly killed by a neighborhood watch captain while walking home from a store. snip

..........................................................................

Martin's family and their attorneys were allowed to hear the audio before it was made public. snip

.....................................................................................

Tracy Martin, the teenager's father, broke down crying as he listened to the audio on Friday, the family lawyers said. "My son was crying for help, and he still shot him," Tracy Martin, the teenager's father said, according to Benjamin Crump, another family attorney.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/16/trayvon-martin-911-audio-_n_1354909.html

IMO
 
The witness says it was dark, no moon and he was 20 to 25 yards away from the guy laying on the ground. He said someone was screaming. With all the black on zimmerman's coat why would he call it a red tshirt? How did he even see the red at that distance?

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/vide...essed-part-of-Trayvon-Zimmerman-confrontation

BBM.

Interesting. Perhaps the black trim elements on GZ's jacket made the red body of the jacket look like a t-shirt in the dark. IMO, red is much easier to see in the dark than black. This is the witness who says GZ (the man in red on the ground) was screaming for help and asked him to call 911. Yes?
 
BBM.

Interesting. Perhaps the black trim elements on GZ's jacket made the red body of the jacket look like a t-shirt in the dark. IMO, red is much easier to see in the dark than black. This is the witness who says GZ (the man in red on the ground) was screaming for help and asked him to call 911. Yes?

I believe this is the 13 year old boy who changed his story.
 
John said he believes it was GZ calling for someone to help him and did not claim he heard GZ screaming. The boy walking his dog said he believes the person screaming was TM because he sounded like a kid screaming. So to date I don't think there are any witnesses who have said they thought it was GZ screaming right before the shot. The majority claim it sounds like the voice of a young male. jmo
 
John said he believes it was GZ calling for someone to help him and did not claim he heard GZ screaming. The boy walking his dog said he believes the person screaming was TM because he sounded like a kid screaming. So to date I don't think there are any witnesses who have said they thought it was GZ screaming right before the shot. The majority claim it sounds like the voice of a young male. jmo

BBM

Does anyone know if TM had a young sounding voice, as in it had not changed yet? IMO, most male teens have passed that stage of puberty by the age of 17 but perhaps TM hadn't. I don't know. I just don't see how "sounds like the voice of a young male" is convincing evidence when the case involves a 17-year old and a 28-year old. I don't think pitch-wise that they'd sound much different, IOW they'd both sound like young men.

So, is it safe to say that the only witness who is able to directly identify any vocalization is the witness who says that GZ was on the ground yelling for help and asking for someone to call 911?

JMO, OMO, and :moo:
 
John said he believes it was GZ calling for someone to help him and did not claim he heard GZ screaming. The boy walking his dog said he believes the person screaming was TM because he sounded like a kid screaming. So to date I don't think there are any witnesses who have said they thought it was GZ screaming right before the shot. The majority claim it sounds like the voice of a young male. jmo

The problem is GZ does not have a deep sounding voice from what we've heard so far. I've also heard more than a few teenagers have deeper sounding voices.
 
BBM

Does anyone know if TM had a young sounding voice, as in it had not changed yet?
...
I'd be willing to bet good money there are samples of TM's voice out there.

And at some point, we're going to hear it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
64
Guests online
2,619
Total visitors
2,683

Forum statistics

Threads
592,183
Messages
17,964,803
Members
228,714
Latest member
hannahdunnam
Back
Top