The case for murder

4Jacy said:

BBM

Welcome, Mrs. Holmes. In the part I bolded I was not referring to those clothes belonging to a female, rather a man who liked to wear women's clothing.

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LOL.. yeah I got that.. but then the questions came to me... it made me laugh!

Mrs. Holmes said:

JS could have left earlier and then came back to the hospital and made the "voice mail call" and then AS could have deleted it. It did not register on the phone because RN's phone was turned off?

When LE looks at the tapes he does "leave" when he said.
It's just that he left went home accidentally killed her then he came back to establish an alibi.

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I can't rule out some DR/NR involvement in this scenario either because of the phone call. Too coincidental? The joint statements? Or else I think JS orchestrated these things since, logically, someone was going to be in big trouble if they didn't stick together. To add to motive, JS could have been threatened because others were thinking Max was suffocated and legal proceedings were going to ensue SOON. I wonder when that report was due to be filed and how that fits in with the late phone call the night before Rebecca was found that was from NR.

Mrs. Holmes said:

JS could have left earlier and then came back to the hospital and made the "voice mail call" and then AS could have deleted it. It did not register on the phone because RN's phone was turned off?

When LE looks at the tapes he does "leave" when he said.
It's just that he left went home accidentally killed her then he came back to establish an alibi.

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You'll need a link backing up that JS killed her. TIA

- Rebecca's cell phone being forensically investigated

- The inconsistent claim of a phonecall placed by Jonah Shacknai at 12:30am when there is no record of the call or message.

- A court documented lie from Jonah Shacknai repeatedly stating to LE that he never left the hospital during the hours in question.. This false statement used as probable cause in an affidavit for SW of Rady's security video to verify Jonah's statement..

- Found in a separate affidavit that Jonah changed that original statement(he'd made more than on one occasion) that he never left the hospital during the hours in question to his indeed having left the hospital around 1am and not returning to the hospital til after 7am(during those hours Rebecca's TOD along with discovery of her body occurred)

- there being no subpoenas for the RMcDH which would be mandatory in establishing Jonah's whereabouts during this time in question since he has changed where he states that he was from the hospital to now the RMcDH.

- there now being confirmed multiple witnesses to hearing a woman scream the night in question. ATLEAST one of those witnesses stating they attempted to tell LE of this more than once.

- confirmed witness that saw an UNidentified female at the Shacknai mansion during the time in question

- along with Nina's 10:41pm late night need to suddenly speak with Rebecca face to face.. When just hours prior she had been face to face with her having every opportunity in the world to discuss Max's accident as Rebecca was her ride from the airport when she arrived earlier in Coronado..

- strangely and again inconsistent with what phone records show Nina claims the text message was over an hour earlier in the evening when she sent it.. Phone records prove it to have been 10:41pm not 9:30

- one of the newest pieces of info to come to light that IMO I find to be the most IMPORTANT is seeing the grave mistake made by a physician on staff at Rady's Children's hospital and his mistake included stating false claims of inconsistent injuries as well as his belief that Max was suffocated
Prior to the fall. His taking this so far as to have a pending protective order in place and LE's full involvement of these false allegations.. IMO with as far as this grave mistake was taken by this doctor including social workers and LE there is no way possible that the parents of Max were not informed of this physicians mistaken beliefs and the legal steps being taken because of those false claims and allegations.. It was only after Max's thorough autopsy which was found to have been extensive severe injury to spinal column and brain stem that his mistaken claims and allegations were 100% disproved and found to have zero basis.. Proving the fall to have been accidental as well as all injuries consistent with the magnitude of that fall.. Sadly for Rebecca this was found too little, too late!! She was already dead..

Feel free to add to my list of info and evidence that would warrant her case being re-opened and thoroughly investigated.

Per blunt force trauma to the top of Rebecca's head ...

Seems examination by an ME could determine what possibly made it and if it was enough to daze her, knock her out, etc.

thinkingstraight said:

You'll need a link backing up that JS killed her. TIA

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I have added 'It is my theory"

jjenny said:

All 15 of them. RN's cell phone wasn't turned on for a month. By that time there was no hope of recovering her voice mail, because AT&T doesn't keep deleted voicemails on its server for more than one week. I have to wonder about hospital surveillance videos. I don't believe they are kept indefinitely in most instances. Don't businesses eventually start taping surveillance videos over?

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..according to the S/W requesting the hospital surveillance tapes----he wants the tapes ( from 1 hour prior to max's admittance on july 11---to 8 a.m. july 13 ) to "confirm or disprove" jonah shacknai's statements regarding his location leading up to the death of RZ.

..he has confirmed with counsel for the hospital,a.vieria, that they still have those DVD's ---and will give them to him if he produces a S/W.

..of course now we know that his alibi for 1:00 a.m. -7:00 a.m. on the 13th isn't the hospital ( and his son's bedside ) at all-----he was allegedly at the ronald mcdonald house , for 6 hours.

..did LE take at look ( if they exist ) tapes of THOSE RMH surveillance tapes???

lauriej said:

..according to the S/W requesting the hospital surveillance tapes----he wants the tapes ( from 1 hour prior to max's admittance on july 11---to 8 a.m. july 13 ) to "confirm or disprove" jonah shacknai's statements regarding his location leading up to the death of RZ.

..he has confirmed with counsel for the hospital,a.vieria, that they still have those DVD's ---and will give them to him if he produces a S/W.

..of course now we know that his alibi for 1:00 a.m. -7:00 a.m. on the 13th isn't the hospital ( and his son's bedside ) at all-----he was allegedly at the ronald mcdonald house , for 6 hours.

..did LE take at look ( if they exist ) tapes of THOSE RMH surveillance tapes???

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All the search warrants came out and I don't see that LE has even requested to view RMDH tapes.

SmoothOperator said:

- along with Nina's 10:41pm late night need to suddenly speak with Rebecca face to face.. When just hours prior she had been face to face with her having every opportunity in the world to discuss Max's accident as Rebecca was her ride from the airport when she arrived earlier in Coronado..

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..clarifying this -------rebecca picked nina up @ the airport on monday afternoon-----she sent her the text message tuesday night @ 10:41..

jjenny said:

All the search warrants came out and I don't see that LE has even requested to view RMDH tapes.

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..ahhh..so, they'll "just take his word for it" that he was in fact there from 1:00-7:00..

..and add it to their "just taking his word for it" as to what he said on the voice mail ( that was a big part of why LE says she decided to kill herself.)

..and they wonder why the public ( and her family ) doubts/questions SDPD???

lauriej said:

..ahhh..so, they'll "just take his word for it" that he was in fact there from 1:00-7:00..

..and add it to their "just taking his word for it" as to what he said on the voice mail ( that was a big part of why LE says she decided to kill herself.)

..and they wonder why the public ( and her family ) doubts/questions SDPD???

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I sure wouldn't be surprised if that what they did. After all they stated everybody they interviewed was very cooperative and truthful. They apparently took his word about the voicemail message contents and build the whole suicide theory on the message that they don't even have.

thinkingstraight said:

Let me get this straight: max accident was not uncommon. The slip knots were common but only Adam can do them? Also I need links to all your statements of facts you are so privy to.

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Yes, that is a good idea to get links to stats. I should be able to find statistics to back this up. Children dying by accident in the home is statistically common. As is young children drowning between the ages of 1-4 Just quickly here is a link to some info about this.

http://www.rospa.com/homesafety/adviceandinformation/childsafety/accidents-to-children.aspx

I do not know "anyone" that would know how to tie themselves up like RZ was tied up. In fact I don't know many women that would know how to tie a slip not or even a form of noose to hang oneself with.

Adam's job would defineately give him the opportunity to know how to do this kinds of knots and someone with rock climbing knowledge also. Here is a link to the kind of training AS would need for his job.

http://www.workboatacademy.com/

jjenny said:

All the search warrants came out and I don't see that LE has even requested to view RMDH tapes.

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IMHO... this was never really investigated as a murder just a "death" investigation to determine suicide.

If RZ was murdered that night what does Adam know about it? He was there!! Can someone be murdered in that fashion and he have no clue?
Well apparently he was entertaining a lady friend... was he the one that put the loud music on?

So many questions so little answers :great:

Does
Anyone else wonder why it was that the rope was tied inside the house to the bed and bedframe and not the balcony itself?? Why tie it off inside to drape all the way over the balcony?? I'm still stuck that one wouldve had to have known the exact measurements including the length needed to tie thru the bedframe and around the leg and knotted and it be exact.. A few inches off and she goes over the railing and straight down to the courtyard below.. No hanging because the rope was a few inches off.. But this was done precisely to a tee and on her first try was the exact length necessary to hang her.. Does that not baffle some??

Tying off to the balcony would have been simple math to ensure the rope was cut to the proper length to hang her.. The only measurement that would need to be known is that it was a 9th drop(9.2 to be exact).. That would be simple to surmise and tie off the rope accordingly but no it is done in the most dramatic fashion that simply and without a doubt would be mandatory to have the multiple precise measurements in order to have the correct length the very first time..

Anyone??

I wonder if you can tell if it was a right handed or left handed person that made those knots? I haven't watched the video do the knots match up EXACTLY .. left over right type thing?

I sure would like to see cell phone pings for JS to establish whereabouts.

SmoothOperator said:

Does
Anyone else wonder why it was that the rope was tied inside the house to the bed and bedframe and not the balcony itself?? Why tie it off inside to drape all the way over the balcony?? I'm still stuck that one wouldve had to have known the exact measurements including the length needed to tie thru the bedframe and around the leg and knotted and it be exact.. A few inches off and she goes over the railing and straight down to the courtyard below.. No hanging because the rope was a few inches off.. But this was done precisely to a tee and on her first try was the exact length necessary to hang her.. Does that not baffle some??

Tying off to the balcony would have been simple math to ensure the rope was cut to the proper length to hang her.. The only measurement that would need to be known is that it was a 9th drop(9.2 to be exact).. That would be simple to surmise and tie off the rope accordingly but no it is done in the most dramatic fashion that simply and without a doubt would be mandatory to have the multiple precise measurements in order to have the correct length the very first time..

Anyone??

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Yes I find this so elaborate.. AND someone mentioned that the bed would have dragged across the floor a bit.. and it did move.. but it is sketchy if there was an actualldrag mark in the carpet.. surely some damage would have been done to the carpet? It does make me wonder if she was hoisted up to make it look like hanging.

Wow.. I didn't realize that there were questions as to the possibility that MS was harmed and that the fall was not an accident. You see this in TV show.. the hospital gets
very careful to make sure the child was not being abused and they exercise extreme caution and investigate the accident thorougly.

So.. RZ is the only adult home and her sister... and JS knows there are "questions" as to how his son was so badly injured.. yes this does add to my present theory.

time said:

Per blunt force trauma to the top of Rebecca's head ...

Seems examination by an ME could determine what possibly made it and if it was enough to daze her, knock her out, etc.

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ITA Time.

If the subgaleal hemorrhages were the result of RZ's head striking the balcony balusters, or the balcony supports below, or the shrubbery, or even the exterior wall of the house, there should have been evidence of those surfaces on her scalp and/or in her hair (i.e. minute paint flakes from the balcony, minute rust flakes from the balcony, plant material from the shrubbery, or particles of the surface of the exterior wall of the house), especially considering the impact of a 9'2" fall.

If her head contacted the shrubbery, strands of her hair should have also been found in the shrubbery and/or pieces of shrubbery should have been found in her hair - again, considering the impact of a 9'2" fall.

ETA: No materials of the above sort were noted in the AR, which leads me to believe @ this point in time that the subgaleal injuries were caused by something other than the above-noted surfaces or objects.

SmoothOperator said:

- Rebecca's cell phone being forensically investigated

- The inconsistent claim of a phonecall placed by Jonah Shacknai at 12:30am when there is no record of the call or message.

- A court documented lie from Jonah Shacknai repeatedly stating to LE that he never left the hospital during the hours in question.. This false statement used as probable cause in an affidavit for SW of Rady's security video to verify Jonah's statement..

- Found in a separate affidavit that Jonah changed that original statement(he'd made more than on one occasion) that he never left the hospital during the hours in question to his indeed having left the hospital around 1am and not returning to the hospital til after 7am(during those hours Rebecca's TOD along with discovery of her body occurred)

- there being no subpoenas for the RMcDH which would be mandatory in establishing Jonah's whereabouts during this time in question since he has changed where he states that he was from the hospital to now the RMcDH.

- there now being confirmed multiple witnesses to hearing a woman scream the night in question. ATLEAST one of those witnesses stating they attempted to tell LE of this more than once.

- confirmed witness that saw an UNidentified female at the Shacknai mansion during the time in question

- along with Nina's 10:41pm late night need to suddenly speak with Rebecca face to face.. When just hours prior she had been face to face with her having every opportunity in the world to discuss Max's accident as Rebecca was her ride from the airport when she arrived earlier in Coronado..

- strangely and again inconsistent with what phone records show Nina claims the text message was over an hour earlier in the evening when she sent it.. Phone records prove it to have been 10:41pm not 9:30

- one of the newest pieces of info to come to light that IMO I find to be the most IMPORTANT is seeing the grave mistake made by a physician on staff at Rady's Children's hospital and his mistake included stating false claims of inconsistent injuries as well as his belief that Max was suffocated
Prior to the fall. His taking this so far as to have a pending protective order in place and LE's full involvement of these false allegations.. IMO with as far as this grave mistake was taken by this doctor including social workers and LE there is no way possible that the parents of Max were not informed of this physicians mistaken beliefs and the legal steps being taken because of those false claims and allegations.. It was only after Max's thorough autopsy which was found to have been extensive severe injury to spinal column and brain stem that his mistaken claims and allegations were 100% disproved and found to have zero basis.. Proving the fall to have been accidental as well as all injuries consistent with the magnitude of that fall.. Sadly for Rebecca this was found too little, too late!! She was already dead..

Feel free to add to my list of info and evidence that would warrant her case being re-opened and thoroughly investigated.

Click to expand...

"This false statement used as probable cause in an affidavit for SW of Rady's security video to verify Jonah's statement."

Which search warrant? Great list. Thanks.