NH NH - Maura Murray, 21, Haverhill, 9 Feb 2004 - # 8

I lit a candle for Maura yesterday, and I put up links to her Charley Project page, and several other links as well.
I hope 2012 we can get one step closer to finding out what happened to the beautiful, athletic and smart, caring girl who was going to become a nurse.........
To Fred Murray and the rest of Maura's family, friends and loved ones.....I know this is so hard. Don't give up hope. We care, and I would love to help in anything.

OldSteve said:

Was thinking, despite all the poking around, nothing much new has really been discovered - and along that line I respect FRED'S WISDOM at the onset of his daughter' disappearance when he said something to the effect of (paraphrasing in my word's not his) nothing matters about events prior to her crashing in Haverhill - all that matters is what happened right after it.

I personally think she was in a vulnerable, endangered state - and while I think she did NOT run away purposely to commit suicide, she may have REACHED A POINT where she did care anymore after the crash.

I wonder about the mindset of going on a long trip in a car that barely runs...

I WONDER IF SHE CARRIED A FLASHLIGHT. This is a something I'm amazed has not been looked into!
It's the only (using a flashlight) I see her running any distance in the dark early night. If she had one in her emergency kit, was it still there??? If she did and if it was gone, then the search should have been done over a much larger area.

I speak from experience running in the dark at night. Wife and I both used flashlights, also a bit of protection too in case any thugs were around. Would never run after a snowfall because of stones being kicked up by plows...

Lastly - a big MISCONCEPTION is the difficulty for a person to simply sit out in the cold and freeze to death... After running, at least for me, sometimes low blood sugar sets in and instead of feeling cold I stop and feel very, very warm - opening my coat and taking off gloves and hat, it strange in that the cold though biting actually feels good! It would be so easy to doze off, and I'm guessing never to wake up.

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I agree with you here 100%! Even with my theory that she had an eating disorder, it doesn't say much about what happened to her after she got into the NH accident. For me, it just tells me why she got into trouble and why she ran up to NH. It fills in the blanks.

I also wonder if there was a flashlight missing from the emergency kit. I wish a reporter asked that simple question. I think she was strong enough to get to town, but the darkness would have held her back. I don't think you can see your hand in front of your face when you get into the National Forest area. It would have been very disorienting for her.

I think when she took the Saturn (running on only 3 cylinders) up to NH, she threw caution to the wind. Clearly, she was emotional. I don't know if her parents knew about the credit card fraud, so that was probably weighing on her too. She probably had a lot going on in her head.

OldSteve said:

Was thinking, despite all the poking around, nothing much new has really been discovered - and along that line I respect FRED'S WISDOM at the onset of his daughter' disappearance when he said something to the effect of (paraphrasing in my word's not his) nothing matters about events prior to her crashing in Haverhill - all that matters is what happened right after it. <snipped for space>

Lastly - a big MISCONCEPTION is the difficulty for a person to simply sit out in the cold and freeze to death... After running, at least for me, sometimes low blood sugar sets in and instead of feeling cold I stop and feel very, very warm - opening my coat and taking off gloves and hat, it strange in that the cold though biting actually feels good! It would be so easy to doze off, and I'm guessing never to wake up.

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I agree on both counts, OldSteve. Early in the investigation, LE had to look at Maura's life "before Haverhill," because to do so might be to turn up evidence as to where she was going, who might know, etc., e.g. she might have left a note for a friend, sent an email, etc.And then what they found turned what might have been a straightforward investigation, moving forward from the crash site in Haverhill, into a complicated mystery, tying events at West Point, the earlier. arcrash, etc. into things,when it may well be their only significance is Maura to takethe trip that resulted in an event that wasal ostcertainly not planned--the accident. My new thought is that Maura might have been thinking of relocating--getting out of UMass, looking for a job in NH or Vt or checking out a different. college. But she could have just wanted to go away and think about her life without distractionsorvround herself by being someplace meaningful. Unless she was bent on suicide, which is unlikely given all the facts we know (why not clean out the bank account? Why buy stuff for girlie drinks and call ahead about a condo?) it doesn't matter what brought her there; what matters is what happened once she left the Saturn.

As to your observation about odd behavior in the cold, accounts of climbing accidents in extreme environments like Mt. Everest make the same point--peopleon the verge of freezing to death feeling warm and sleepy. Or. if she was cold and tired and miserable, she might have been more likely to ask for help--ot take it from the wrong person.

We do have some evidence in the form of the tracking dog who picked up a scent and then lost it near Bradley Hill Road. It suggests that she didn't walk away directly from Weathered Barn Corner and succumb to the elements there. Perhaps someone picked her up and then dropped her off down the road where she couldn't find another lift and then wandered off in search of shelter. but why hasn't anyone come forward with that information?

Or someone picked her up and there was foul play involved. Or it was a planned Walk-Away from the get-go.

Mr. Renner has said he believed that she was going up to NH to meet someone, so we might have to wait for that information to get sorted out.

Unscripted said:

We do have some evidence in the form of the tracking dog who picked up a scent and then lost it near Bradley Hill Road. It suggests that she didn't walk away directly from Weathered Barn Corner and succumb to the elements there. Perhaps someone picked her up and then dropped her off down the road where she couldn't find another lift and then wandered off in search of shelter. but why hasn't anyone come forward with that information?

Or someone picked her up and there was foul play involved. Or it was a planned Walk-Away from the get-go.

Mr. Renner has said he believed that she was going up to NH to meet someone, so we might have to wait for that information to get sorted out.

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BBM

I haven't seen any evidence on this in 8 years, so I'm still thinking she went up to NH alone. It is possible she accepted a ride, but my gut feeling is if this happened, that person was responsible for her being missing. I also think she knew she took a risk, if she accepted a ride. In another scenario, she wouldn't have accepted the ride. That night in NH was an exception. I'm just going on gut feelings here.

McSpy said:

BBM
It is possible she accepted a ride, but my gut feeling is if this happened, that person was responsible for her being missing. I also think she knew she took a risk, if she accepted a ride. In another scenario, she wouldn't have accepted the ride. That night in NH was an exception. I'm just going on gut feelings here.

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I agree. She got in a car with someone and that person or persons were the last people to see her alive and most likely killed her. Given the tight time frame they must have spotted her at a rest stop, connivence store or gas bar in Wells River or Woodsville and followed her. No other scenario makes sense.

What do you all think of the creepy videos posted on youtube (by 112dirtbag and mr112dirtbag)? The guy laughing makes my hair stand up on end, but I'm pretty sure it's an attention-seeker (albeit a disturbed one), rather than someone who actually knows something about the case. Do you think Mr112Dirtbag and 112Dirtbag are the same person, or is the former a copy-cat?

Some of the people on the Topix threads about Maura have made me very glad that WS has a strong set of mods who don't think that anything goes.

Skigirl said:

What do you all think of the creepy videos posted on youtube (by 112dirtbag and mr112dirtbag)? The guy laughing makes my hair stand up on end, but I'm pretty sure it's an attention-seeker (albeit a disturbed one), rather than someone who actually knows something about the case. Do you think Mr112Dirtbag and 112Dirtbag are the same person, or is the former a copy-cat?

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He needs to be checked out, even if people write him off as a loon. He's probably only seeking attention, but it is odd that he has a xcountry ski pass from the same area and time frame of Maura's disappearence. LE should show Bretton Woods management that video to see if that pass looks like something they used in 2004. Since he lives in the Amherst area, he could have been traveling the same route as Maura on the way up to NH.

Some people speculate it is a guy, who has been posting on Topix for years on Maura's case. He lives in the Amherst area. I think they have it right--I think it is him. He seems fixated on weird angles and far-fetched theories of cases such as Maura's and the case of a Cape Cod boy who was found dead after getting lost. He seems nutty to me, but worth checking out to be sure.

pittsburghgirl said:

Some of the people on the Topix threads about Maura have made me very glad that WS has a strong set of mods who don't think that anything goes.

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Absolutely! I agree! That forum is awful. You have to weed through hundreds of nonsense posts to get to anything worth reading. Too much bashing and head cracking going on over there and some the theories are outlandish and downright ridiculous!!

McSpy said:

Some people speculate it is a guy, who has been posting on Topix for years on Maura's case. He lives in the Amherst area. I think they have it right--I think it is him. He seems fixated on weird angles and far-fetched theories of cases such as Maura's and the case of a Cape Cod boy who was found dead after getting lost. He seems nutty to me, but worth checking out to be sure.

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Allegedly he was interviewed by an Amherst PI hired by the Murrays and the PI asked if he murdered Maura. He claims he was harassed by LE after that and his life took a turn for the worse. From what I've read he (if it's the same person) has never said anything bad about Maura or her family.

I think he's pointing the finger at a couple of posters over at Topix who post on multiple threads and who may be the same person(s) who consistently say (paraphrasing) that Maura Murray was irresponsible and inadvertently caused her own death. Those posters also say that Patric's parents were negligent and that Brianna Maitland and Louise Chaput had dubious backgrounds that resulted in their disappearance and murder respectively.

"Beagle", the poster may have some weird ideas and disgraceful delivery methods, but I think he's pointing the finger at certain posters who he believes are responsible for an LE cover-up or unnecessary personal harassment, or both. Possibly he has a beef with one of more people over at Topix who purport to know more about the investigation than they really do. JMO.

Unscripted said:

Allegedly he was interviewed by an Amherst PI hired by the Murrays and the PI asked if he murdered Maura. He claims he was harassed by LE after that and his life took a turn for the worse. From what I've read he (if it's the same person) has never said anything bad about Maura or her family.

I think he's pointing the finger at a couple of posters over at Topix who post on multiple threads and who may be the same person(s) who consistently say (paraphrasing) that Maura Murray was irresponsible and inadvertently caused her own death. Those posters also say that Patric's parents were negligent and that Brianna Maitland and Louise Chaput had dubious backgrounds that resulted in their disappearance and murder respectively.

"Beagle", the poster may have some weird ideas and disgraceful delivery methods, but I think he's pointing the finger at certain posters who he believes are responsible for an LE cover-up or unnecessary personal harassment, or both. Possibly he has a beef with one of more people over at Topix who purport to know more about the investigation than they really do. JMO.

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So, you think these videos were meant for the Topix posters? Was he trying to say that the Topix posters are full of it, because he really knows what happened? In other words, was he trying to yank their chains?

Unscripted said:

Allegedly he was interviewed by an Amherst PI hired by the Murrays and the PI asked if he murdered Maura. He claims he was harassed by LE after that and his life took a turn for the worse. From what I've read he (if it's the same person) has never said anything bad about Maura or her family.

I think he's pointing the finger at a couple of posters over at Topix who post on multiple threads and who may be the same person(s) who consistently say (paraphrasing) that Maura Murray was irresponsible and inadvertently caused her own death. Those posters also say that Patric's parents were negligent and that Brianna Maitland and Louise Chaput had dubious backgrounds that resulted in their disappearance and murder respectively.

"Beagle", the poster may have some weird ideas and disgraceful delivery methods, but I think he's pointing the finger at certain posters who he believes are responsible for an LE cover-up or unnecessary personal harassment, or both. Possibly he has a beef with one of more people over at Topix who purport to know more about the investigation than they really do. JMO.

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BBM

Do you know why he was questioned by the PI and LE in the first place? He must have got their attention in some way.

Unscripted said:

I agree. She got in a car with someone and that person or persons were the last people to see her alive and most likely killed her. Given the tight time frame they must have spotted her at a rest stop, connivence store or gas bar in Wells River or Woodsville and followed her. No other scenario makes sense.

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I'm not so sure someone spotted her on her travels. I think someone happened along. It was a crime of opportunity. IMO

My theory is her father was angrier about the first car accident than he lets on in the interview. This probably aggravated Maura's already fragile emotional state (perhaps depression).

She was not in a good frame of mind, decided to take time off and drive to where she is comfortable (Vermont or the White Mountains). She emails her professor that she had a death in the family and needs to be gone a week, which was untrue.

She drives North, buys some alcohol, and drinks while she drives. It turns night. She is driving along a dark New Hampshire road and is impaired. She hits a very sharp left turn and reacts too slowly, wrecking the car in a snowbank.

This is her second car wreck in days. Now she is shattered. Plus, she is intoxicated. She has no idea what to do. She can't call the authorities because she would be arrested for a DUI. She can't call her father because he is too far away. Moreover, there is no cell service. She stands outside the car trying to make sense of her situation.

The bus driver stops, asks her if she needs help. She declines (because she doesn't want him to see she's been drinking),and says she called AAA and they are on their way. The bus driver suspects this is a lie because there is no cell service.

What happens next is more of a mystery. I suspect she panicked, thinking when the driver got home he would call the police. She didn't want the cops to find her inebriated by her disabled vehicle, so she takes off on foot, even though she has nowhere to go.

She treks into the woods to hide, her head not straight because of her emotional troubles and her intoxication. Only problem is it is a very cold night in New Hampshire and the woods are thick. She either got lost or simply remained in one spot too long and died of exposure. I know that search teams have combed the woods, but we are talking about a huge area of thick woods. In cases past, it's not uncommon for searchers repeatedly to miss a body 10 yards away under such conditions. Afterwards, her remains likely were eaten by animals, further hampering any attempt at location.

Likely, we'll never know for sure what happened to that poor girl. Maybe one day a hiker in the woods will come across some evidence that will put everything in a better perspective.

WRT the phone call...
By that time she would have been exposed to the elements for an entire night, and it's likely she was suffering from hypothermia. She had spent hours wandering deep enough into an area that finally had cell service. When she makes the desperate call, all she gets is his voice mail. In her condition, it's doubtful she could even speak at that point. If that was her message (which unfortunately cannot be proven), I think she died shortly thereafter.

Goldblum said:

She drives North, buys some alcohol, and drinks while she drives. It turns night. She is driving along a dark New Hampshire road and is impaired. She hits a very sharp left turn and reacts too slowly, wrecking the car in a snowbank. This is her second car wreck in days. Now she is shattered. Plus, she is intoxicated. She has no idea what to do. She can't call the authorities because she would be arrested for a DUI. She can't call her father because he is too far away. Moreover, there is no cell service. She stands outside the car trying to make sense of her situation.
The bus driver stops, asks her if she needs help. She declines (because she doesn't want him to see she's been drinking) She treks into the woods to hide, her head not straight because of her emotional troubles and her intoxication. Only problem is it is a very cold night in New Hampshire and the woods are thick. She either got lost or simply remained in one spot too long and died of exposure. I know that search teams have combed the woods, but we are talking about a huge area of thick woods. In cases past, it's not uncommon for searchers repeatedly to miss a body 10 yards away under such conditions. Afterwards, her remains likely were eaten by animals, further hampering any attempt at location.

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Again I think we have to go back to what little evidence we have. The search dogs tracked her scent down the road, not into the woods. The school bus driver initially reported she was shaken up yet didn't seem intoxicated. If she was running and working up a bit of a sweat, presumably the SAR dogs would have been able to keep tracking her scent. It was around zero that night (unseasonably warm) yet with a fair amount of crusty snow around. I just think what little clues exist point to her being picked up by a car. Since nobody has come forward, I am inclined to believe it ended in foul play.

McSpy said:

Do you know why he was questioned by the PI and LE in the first place? He must have got their attention in some way.

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He (who truly know who's who?) posted somewhere that he found it insulting to be asked forthright by a MA PI if he murdered MM. It may have been on Topix Franconia or Topix Amherst. Topix Franconia MM thread was taken down today, 12,000 posts evaporated, so somebody might be onto something. It doesn't seem to be about the foul-mouthed insults that appear to run rampant there, but rather about his videos and the subsequent posts that attempted to interpret his videos and point fingers at other active posters.

There are several posters on Topix who purport to be ex LE or para LE who "know everything" and get into heated, unsavoury debates with everyone. That happened here a few years ago on this MM thread and that poster was, thankfully, subsequently banned.

That video just out and out gives me the creeps. Wouldnt be the first time a psycho bragged about his crime and taunted police and the public. I have long that she met with foul play, but have recently thought she succombed to the elements (her phone call brought to mind hypothermia and getting delerious), however, these videos make me go back to my original thinking. The video (just a still shot of a drawing really) called "black eye" is weird too. Did Maura have a black eye, did she injure her eye in the accident?

Unscripted said:

He (who truly know who's who?) posted somewhere that he found it insulting to be asked forthright by a MA PI if he murdered MM. It may have been on Topix Franconia or Topix Amherst. Topix Franconia MM thread was taken down today, 12,000 posts evaporated, so somebody might be onto something. It doesn't seem to be about the foul-mouthed insults that appear to run rampant there, but rather about his videos and the subsequent posts that attempted to interpret his videos and point fingers at other active posters.

There are several posters on Topix who purport to be ex LE or para LE who "know everything" and get into heated, unsavoury debates with everyone. That happened here a few years ago on this MM thread and that poster was, thankfully, subsequently banned.

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BBM

Wow! I think possibly LE wanted them. As you well know, Topix is very loose, so something is up if the whole forum was pulled. Are you talking about WTF Bill on Topix as the trouble maker? He stuck out to me, because he tends to bash whenever he gets a chance to post. I was reading there a day or so ago, because of the other Topix poster (Beagle), who was allegedly responsible for the disturbing youtube videos. One thing I noticed, Beagle stopped posting after the video was noticed by the Renner followers and the media. WTF Bill was still posting. JMO

the seeker said:

That video just out and out gives me the creeps. Wouldnt be the first time a psycho bragged about his crime and taunted police and the public. I have long that she met with foul play, but have recently thought she succombed to the elements (her phone call brought to mind hypothermia and getting delerious), however, these videos make me go back to my original thinking. The video (just a still shot of a drawing really) called "black eye" is weird too. Did Maura have a black eye, did she injure her eye in the accident?

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I think that the black eye was an amateur's animation attempt at making the eye wink. In the "112dirtbag's" video called, "Happy Anniversary," he winks at the end too (He deleted the video and his youtube channel soon after he posted it.). I think these videos are by the same person.