GUILTY UK - Joanna Yeates, 25, Clifton, Bristol, 17 Dec 2010 #7

Strange things indeed. The half drunk Cider and missing Pizza. Who'd have thought such a trivial matter would provide so much thought process?

If a killer has the appetite to eat that piizza, then it just goes to show how cold they really are.

brummster said:

Good point Phillb. And perhaps one of the reasons LE are confident she got home.

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she could have drunk out of a glass of water in the morning...... someone could have poured half the cider in the glass, and half down the loo.....

I could go with the body being hid somewhere en route to Sheffield, then dumped in Longwood Lane on Christmas morning. That all depends on where G.R was Christmas Eve/Christmas morning early doors.

laserdisc10 said:

Don't you believe that a missing-person case would be far more convincing if it appeared she'd never made it home ?

Disposing of the bag and its contents -- anywhere (or with the body) -- would persuade LE that whatever happened to her had happened 'out there', by person/s unknown

And the pizza (if it posed a problem to the killer through his fingerprints) could have been removed from the wrapping and frisbeed into grass for birds the next morning or rats that night. And the packet could have been ripped and tossed to the winds

Were we told if one bottle of cider remained ? Or were we simply told one bottle had been half-consumed ? Again, a good rinse of the used bottle and toss it into grass. It would probably still be lying there, if so

Put her coat back on, and the boots. And when she was found, it would have looked as if she'd been snatched off the street

No need to tidy the flat. And could say he came home exhausted and fell asleep, fully expecting her to be home by the time he woke up

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I see what you're saying. But IMO, it would take some serious nerve for GR to return to the dumping site.

Also, we've had weeks and hindsight to logically think through what we would have done. I am not convinced that GR (or anyone else for that matter) would be able to rationalise all this at the time, whilst also trying to appear normal to family/outside world. Putting myself in his shoes, I probably would have washed up and poured out the remaining cider, but would have perceived the risks involved with trying to find a good dumping site for her belongings as too much.

Do we know that she didn't have her coat on? How easy is it to get those boots back on a dead body. Again, in his shoes, I would be trying to get out of there as quickly as possible and on to Sheffield. I don't think it would have occurred to him to put her boots back on. Do guys even know how to put boots like that on? Then again, he may have managed to put her coat back on her, but struggled to get the boots back on and abandoned that plan.

Apologies for my atrocious spelling. Trying to type quickly.

brummster said:

Yes I do, perhaps a little earlier. How long would it take to get from the flat to Longwood lane? I feel iit all happened very quickly.

IIRC, we still don't know what time he is said to have arrived in Sheffield. With a bit of making up of time on the motorway, and an unwittingly incorrect alibi, it could tie in. But this is just speculation as I don't have the facts. Just a possible scenario.

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I think it more likely that he drove straight to Sheffield with the body in the boot, so saving a precious hour or so of alibi time. His first thought was probably to dump the body somewhere along the way, or even around Sheffield, but a minute's reflection would have made him see what a bad idea that would have been. So he brought the body back to Bristol with him and dumped it either on the Sunday night, or possibly later.

So. Given the new information that has come to light. Where do we all stand in terms of key suspect? Someone had done a useful set of questions on an earlier thread which I'll try to recreate:

Who did it? GR
Motive? Minor altercation involving control/jealousy - perhaps over MW text
Time and location of death? Friday evening at the flat
When body left at Longwood lane? Friday evening or Sunday evening on the way to/from Sheffield

JMO

teabreid said:

I think it more likely that he drove straight to Sheffield with the body in the boot, so saving a precious hour or so of alibi time. His first thought was probably to dump the body somewhere along the way, or even around Sheffield, but a minute's reflection would have made him see what a bad idea that would have been. So he brought the body back to Bristol with him and dumped it either on the Sunday night, or possibly later.

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One of the reason I really dont think he drove round with her body in the trunk for all that time; he did not really know that the alarm would not have been raised before he got back on Sunday, supposing her mum/dad (or anyone) had tried to get hold of her in an emergency? he couldn't have risked dumping the body in/around Sheffield or anywhere on route from Sheffield to Bristol, I think it would have made his behaviour a nervous wreck.

Plenty of potholing caves and such in the peak district near Sheffield.

Like i've always said.. A missing person, actually has to go missing. A dead body found en route to Sheffield is a risk you can't take. It points straight to chummy!

She has to be found around Bristol, and over the other side of the River Avon for that psychological barrier.

brummster said:

I see what you're saying. But IMO, it would take some serious nerve for GR to return to the dumping site.

Also, we've had weeks and hindsight to logically think through what we would have done. I am not convinced that GR (or anyone else for that matter) would be able to rationalise all this at the time, whilst also trying to appear normal to family/outside world. Putting myself in his shoes, I probably would have washed up and poured out the remaining cider, but would have perceived the risks involved with trying to find a good dumping site for her belongings as too much.

Do we know that she didn't have her coat on? How easy is it to get those boots back on a dead body. Again, in his shoes, I would be trying to get out of there as quickly as possible and on to Sheffield. I don't think it would have occurred to him to put her boots back on. Do guys even know how to put boots like that on? Then again, he may have managed to put her coat back on her, but struggled to get the boots back on and abandoned that plan.

Apologies for my atrocious spelling. Trying to type quickly.

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It wouldn't require a return to the dump site

If someone killed someone -- quietly, as she was killed -- and they weren't prepared to phone the police and an ambulance or attempt to revive their victim

then they'd be in survival mode. Their brain would be high on adrenaline and alert to anything that might implicate them

So, if she was killed in the flat and the killer was planning to move the body - I believe they'd grab the bag. They'd grab whatever the victim had brought home. And they'd take the lot and dispose of it - either with the body, or two or ten miles away. They wouldn't need to put the boots and coat back on, of course. Dumping those with or apart from the body would work just as well

If the killer had done that (and it wouldn't take a genius) the police would have no reason to believe the victim had ever arrived home. Or, the police might suspect the victim came home and went out again

brummster said:

So. Given the new information that has come to light. Where do we all stand in terms of key suspect? Someone had done a useful set of questions on an earlier thread which I'll try to recreate:

Who did it? GR
Motive? Minor altercation involving control/jealousy - perhaps over MW text
Time and location of death? Friday evening at the flat
When body left at Longwood lane? Friday evening or Sunday evening on the way to/from Sheffield

JMO

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Here's that Slewth Poll from several threads back:

from Slewth

What might be useful, or at least keep things fresh at this stage, would be a snapshot of members' views (one line answers only) on such questions as:

1. Who did it?
2. What was the motive?
3. What was the time of death?
4. What happened to the pizza?
5. When was the body was dumped?

It would be interesting to see the extent of agreement - or disagreement!

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Incidentally, 9 members and 26 guests currently aboard; guests, join, we would value your input!

I wonder what his alibi is for the Saturday?
Anyone know? Was he with half brother all the time? Same car?

brummster, for some reason I keep reading your user name as 'bumster'!

You and I are two peas in a pod. I agree with most of what you are saying.

brummster said:

JY does the shopping and heads home. a) meets someone (call them GR) on the way who says I'll give you a lift. Jumps in the car and has altercation. She's driven home and leaves car in a huff forgetting pizza. She's followed into the house and argument continues. She takes off her boots and puts on the socks which, as the house is untidy and she wears them in the house all the time are lying around handy to change into. All the time GR is still there arguing with her. She pours herself some cider drinks some. Arguement continues and she is strangled. x panics, picks her up and puts her in the car, disposes of her. Sock has come off in the car. GR continues on his way to Sheffield. disposes of pizza and sock somewhere on the way.

scenario b. as she gets home, she finds GR in his car getting ready to set off. She jumps in to say goodbye, they have an altercation. She heads off into flat in a huff, forgetting pizza, GR follows her in.

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We are thinking along the same lines, except that I promised myself two days ago to come up with a new scenario when I decided to believe LE's judgment that GR was only a witness; however after 48 hrs I have still been unable to come up with one.

Although I gave the 'stranger' theory some thought, I've ruled it out, due to what TY said last night: ''We know what Jo would do, and how she would react in different situations. This, we believe, is our major contribution.'' To me that means that she would've taken precautions not to get into a car with a stranger, nor to open a door to one. The police have never used the word 'abduction' either.

Also what we know from last night's appeal is that ''something apparently insignificant could trigger the killer to kill again'' from which I glean that it was something insignificant that caused the killer to strangle JY, thereby eliminating premeditation and planning. It was something that happened quickly, got out of control, and lead to murder. What 'pissed off' (pardon my vulgarity) the perp?

From today's news we learn that JY never ate the pizza. I think that's the significant fact, not that it's gone missing. Not too sure about its significance, but I'll keep pondering it.

Still I have questions:

If strangulation was caused by the sock as LE is telling us might be possible, then wouldn't there be ligature marks on the victim?
&
If the perp took the sock off JY's foot, there would've been a struggle and there's no evidence of that either, so I'm still wondering:how did the perp get it in his hands?

(CJ ain't gonna put someone's dirty sock in his hand. Not in a million years.)

Edit: to change the word 'suspect' to 'witness' in reference to GR up there. Must've been a Freudian slip.

Do we know if she was actually dead by the time MW texted?

Does anyone thinks its possible that strangulation could have been an accident!!!

I've tried to get the info if the quarry was working Christmas week also.
Unfortunately it isn't something that can be put in the public domain.

Sweep the cat said:

Do we know if she was actually dead by the time MW texted?

Does anyone thinks its possible that strangulation could have been an accident!!!

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Everyone is capable of murder I once read. If someone pushes your buttons enough, or it's self defence.

We can all remember back to a time we were boiling mad at some point.
As many on here agree, it was probably over and done with in seconds in a heated rage. But once the life goes out of a body, there aint no way to bring it back to life again.

It's O.M.G what have I done!!

Thanks wfgodot.

from Slewth

What might be useful, or at least keep things fresh at this stage, would be a snapshot of members' views (one line answers only) on such questions as:

1. Who did it? GR
2. What was the motive? Argument over control/jealousy issue
3. What was the time of death? Friday night
4. What happened to the pizza? Never made it in to the flat. Was left in the car when the argument started. Was eventually dumped somewhere on the way to/in and around Sheffield.
5. When was the body was dumped? I'm strongly drawn to the body being dumped on Friday. I disagree with Phillb in that I can't imagine the killer going through with shifting it around and in the case of GR, no opportunity. I do however agree with Phillb in that there's no way he would have kept the body in the car over the weekend. So Friday it is for me until I get conclusive evidence that this couold not have been possible without earlier sighting.

Just had a thought.....

Anyone heard of Streetcar? .... check it out

http://www.streetcar.co.uk/what_is_streetcar.aspx

They have a couple in Clifton and 3 others in Bristol...

http://www.streetcar.co.uk/locationslist.aspx

Now I'm wondering if one of these could have been used on the Sunday (4 hours)

enqueteur said:

brummster, for some reason I keep reading your user name as 'bumster'!

You and I are two peas in a pod. I agree with most of what you are saying.



We are thinking along the same lines, except that I promised myself two days ago to come up with a new scenario when I decided to believe LE's judgment that GR was only a suspect; however after 48 hrs I have still been unable to come up with one.

Although I gave the 'stranger' theory some thought, I've ruled it out, due to what TY said last night: ''We know what Jo would do, and how she would react in different situations. This, we believe, is our major contribution.'' To me that means that she would've taken precautions not to get into a car with a stranger, nor to open a door to one. The police have never used the word 'abduction' either.

Also what we know from last night's appeal is that ''something apparently insignificant could trigger the killer to kill again'' from which I glean that it was something insignificant that caused the killer to strangle JY, thereby eliminating premeditation and planning. It was something that happened quickly, got out of control, and lead to murder. What 'pissed off' (pardon my vulgarity) the perp?

From today's news we learn that JY never ate the pizza. I think that's the significant fact, not that it's gone missing. Not too sure about its significance, but I'll keep pondering it.

Still I have questions:

If strangulation was caused by the sock as LE is telling us might be possible, then wouldn't there be ligature marks on the victim?
&
If the perp took the sock off JY's foot, there would've been a struggle and there's no evidence of that either, so I'm still wondering:how did the perp get it in his hands?

(CJ ain't gonna put someone's dirty sock in his hand. Not in a million years.)

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I don't know how to do smilies but warm embrace...

I too have tried all sorts of scenarios. At one stage considering RS, but given what we know, nothing else seems to fit.

I'm still surprised at how well rested GR looks in those images of the latest appeal. But then again, who knows how one would appear???

Brummster for Birmingham ;-)

I am still thinking about the whereabouts of MW. He text at 9.20 to say he was at a party. If he text JY from her house would there be proof that he did it from there on the phone records. How accurate are these record does anyone know pls.

Sweep the cat said:

I am still thinking about the whereabouts of MW. He text at 9.20 to say he was at a party. If he text JY from her house would there be proof that he did it from there on the phone records. How accurate are these record does anyone know pls.

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That could explain some things but, how did MW remove the body? When? Did he go back to the party? Or did he stay the night at the flat and remove the body the following day? Would he have taken the risk of GR returning eraly and finding him there? Does he ahve a car? And if he had been driving, had he been drinking too? Would the risk of being caught drink driving not prove too much?