MTR Discussions

CuriousJorge said:

Max, he will be paying his dues in due time. Unfortunately there are still so many people who think he's innocent. If that was the case, he wouldn't be staring at bars and walls that confine him. People will say it's for his own protection. No Nadda! There are a lot of places he could go for protection and no one would be the wiser. Just like Mrs. Bernardo.

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In Canada, section 11(d) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states: "Any person charged with an offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal".

Heaven help the justice system if any of you are ever called to jury duty. Now, if he is ever convicted, I will be the first to jump on that bandwagon with you. Until then, I think I'll just go along with the Charter of Rights.

MOO

dilbert said:

for the record, i'd just like to say i don't think MR is innocent, i do wonder about his level of guilt though.

also, for some, it's not a question of whether he is guilty or innocent, it's the fact that he has not been convicted of any crime and therefore still has the right to a certain level of safety and comfort while awaiting trial. if it were your son or daughter, wouldn't you expect that too?

i'm not saying that's right or wrong, just stating fact and that the people on these facebook groups sound like a bloody lynch mob! i thought canadians were more civilized than that.

i guess i'm just seeing this from another angle.

i have no doubt victoria will receive the justice she deserves.

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Canadians usually are more civilized than what is being expressed on the Facebook page. I think many of us are still raw from the "Deal With The Devil" (Karla) and do not want anything like that to ever happen again. I do understand both parties (TLM & MTR) are innocent until proven guilty, and I also understand an "alive" Michael Rafferty is much more desirable to the Prosecution than dead or seriously injured MTR. IF he was moved for safety reasons then I support that decision 100%. If his move stemmed from complaints not directly related to his personal safety, then there is reason to question.

nonfictionrocks said:

Hey CJ - long time!

Was MR on Bubba's Dance Card too - LOL

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I was sure hoping. All in good time. Kingston's not far away.:crazy:

antiquegirl said:

In Canada, section 11(d) of the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms states: "Any person charged with an offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proven guilty according to law in a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal".

Heaven help the justice system if any of you are ever called to jury duty. Now, if he is ever convicted, I will be the first to jump on that bandwagon with you. Until then, I think I'll just go along with the Charter of Rights.

MOO

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Bolded by me.

AG, I think perhaps some of us have much more faith in LE than you do. I don't think it's fair for you to assume that just because we have decided that he did play a very big part in the abduction and murder of Tori that means that we don't respect the legal system. I believe that any of us here could be very fair jurors. I have seen from the beginning of this how WS'ers can look at both sides of the issue. You seem sure that MR is innocent, I am sure that he is guilty. We could let him go and see how long it is before he kills another child or we could keep him where he is and protect other children. Our justice system overall is a good one and I will put my faith in LE that they have the right man. There are other reasons that I am so sure about this but I don't care to go into them here.We are both entitled to our opinions. My heart breaks for this little girl and her family, the only thing they have left is to see Justice for her. Her family seems very sure that MR is the one and I bet they are privy to much more information than we are.

JMHO!! To each his own but I feel that some of us would rather it be "guilty until proven innocent". Yes the Canadian court system is way to lenient of some unfortunately. The percentage of someone being wrongfully convicted and remaining in jail as long as MR has been there, does look like to be in his favour. The "for his protection" is a cheap cop out. Without evidence before us, we can only assume and to say that Heaven help the justice system if any of you are ever called to jury duty, is a cheap shot. It's human nature to base our opinions on what we've heard and so many have heard enough to come to their decision. Now as a juror, I would be very opened minded to hear all the evidence and decide then. A lot of info does not look to be in his favour. I will be very shocked if he's found innocent. BTW there are too many mushy people who do sit on jury duty and that's why we have repeat offenders amongst us. JMHO!!

I've been wanting to ask for so long AG, what makes you believe in his innocence? Your "allies" can tell you all they like, but is it factual? I'm speaking for many I'm sure, we'd all like to know, WHY is MR sitting in jail charged with murder and abduction? Not because TLM says so I hope (and I know). BTW LE HAVE EVIDENCE ENOUGH TO HOLD HIM THERE. I'd love to be a juror in this case...pick me, pick me.

I have to agree with Jorge. I have yet to see anything to prove his innocence. Nada nothing zilch. He won't speak in his defense and neither does his family. That has bothered me from day one.

maxfactor said:

I have to agree with Jorge. I have yet to see anything to prove his innocence. Nada nothing zilch. He won't speak in his defense and neither does his family. That has bothered me from day one.

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All his "supports" are hiding in the woodwork. No one has gone to the media to protest his innocence.

Thanx Max, we're not the only ones who feel this way I'm sure. I'd still like to hear from those on here to who believe in his innocence and "WHY". Not just because he hasn't been proven guilty yet. That not enough, I want factual info and will even give some consideration to hearsay.

CuriousJorge said:

JMHO!! To each his own but I feel that some of us would rather it be "guilty until proven innocent". Yes the Canadian court system is way to lenient of some unfortunately. The percentage of someone being wrongfully convicted and remaining in jail as long as MR has been there, does look like to be in his favour. The "for his protection" is a cheap cop out. Without evidence before us, we can only assume and to say that Heaven help the justice system if any of you are ever called to jury duty, is a cheap shot. It's human nature to base our opinions on what we've heard and so many have heard enough to come to their decision. Now as a juror, I would be very opened minded to hear all the evidence and decide then. A lot of info does not look to be in his favour. I will be very shocked if he's found innocent. BTW there are too many mushy people who do sit on jury duty and that's why we have repeat offenders amongst us. JMHO!!

I've been wanting to ask for so long AG, what makes you believe in his innocence? Your "allies" can tell you all they like, but is it factual? I'm speaking for many I'm sure, we'd all like to know, WHY is MR sitting in jail charged with murder and abduction? Not because TLM says so I hope (and I know). BTW LE HAVE EVIDENCE ENOUGH TO HOLD HIM THERE. I'd love to be a juror in this case...pick me, pick me.

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(BBM)

How many times do I have to say this? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MTR IS INNOCENT! Nor do I believe that he is guilty.

While I have heard nothing to "prove his innocence", I have neither heard anything to "prove his guilt". There has been no evidence whatsoever released to the public about MTR's involvement in this crime. That is what trials are for. I have made no judgment one way or the other. WHEN I hear the evidence, then I will make my judgment. That's the way the Canadian justice system is supposed to work.

I will repeat this for the umpteenth time: I am a mother. I have three children. I am in a position to put myself in the shoes of the mother of a victim like little Tori, but also in the shoes of a mother whose child may have been wrongfully charged with a crime. I want Tori's killer(s) punished to the full extent of the law, but first I want to know (not surmise) who they are. This is called being fair and impartial.

MOO

antiquegirl said:

(BBM)

How many times do I have to say this? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MTR IS INNOCENT! Nor do I believe that he is guilty.

While I have heard nothing to "prove his innocence", I have neither heard anything to "prove his guilt". There has been no evidence whatsoever released to the public about MTR's involvement in this crime. That is what trials are for. I have made no judgment one way or the other. WHEN I hear the evidence, then I will make my judgment. That's the way the Canadian justice system is supposed to work.

I will repeat this for the umpteenth time: I am a mother. I have three children. I am in a position to put myself in the shoes of the mother of a victim like little Tori, but also in the shoes of a mother whose child may have been wrongfully charged with a crime. I want Tori's killer(s) punished to the full extent of the law, but first I want to know (not surmise) who they are. This is called being fair and impartial.

MOO

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When anyone posts in regard to his "guilt", you seem to take the offense and this is what makes me believe you feel he is innocent. "Most" people will take one side or the other. And the "FACT" that MR is sitting in jail has made my mind up in regards to his guilt. I do not for one second believe LE are that "stupid" to throw someone in jail for this long if they do not have enough evidence. There was no bail hearing, nothing. Numerous media reports have stated that "there is sufficient evidence" in convicting MR. They have a hard drive (comparatively speaking) full of information on this case. In my opinion TLM told LE enough info for them to investigate further and found what they needed to make an arrest. It's not a typical scenario to throw someone in jail "just in case, while we check this situation out". He's there for a reason and I feel very strongly that is because he was involved in the murder of a beautiful little female child. I do not have a problem with going to one side or the other. I do not choose to sit on the fence when something as serious as this happens.

Being a mother also, if my child suffered at the hands of some monster and everything was playing out as in this case, I'd be wanting to pay that monster a visit behind bars. I would want to be in his cell with him and I'd be getting all the answers I need. MR and TLM have no rights in my eyes. They are in jail because they took away Victoria's right to life. TLM can rot there as we all know she will. And BTW MR is a full grown man and if he was my son, I'd be getting the answers and if he's innocent, I'd be shouting from the roof tops to prove my sons innocents not hiding out somewhere fearing my safety. I would not be standing by his side if he was guilty of murder. So where is MR's mom anyway? Obviously not protesting his innocence. Then again we have the Anthonys...whole different story.

antiquegirl said:

(BBM)

How many times do I have to say this? I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT MTR IS INNOCENT! Nor do I believe that he is guilty.

While I have heard nothing to "prove his innocence", I have neither heard anything to "prove his guilt". There has been no evidence whatsoever released to the public about MTR's involvement in this crime. That is what trials are for. I have made no judgment one way or the other. WHEN I hear the evidence, then I will make my judgment. That's the way the Canadian justice system is supposed to work.

I will repeat this for the umpteenth time: I am a mother. I have three children. I am in a position to put myself in the shoes of the mother of a victim like little Tori, but also in the shoes of a mother whose child may have been wrongfully charged with a crime. I want Tori's killer(s) punished to the full extent of the law, but first I want to know (not surmise) who they are. This is called being fair and impartial.

MOO

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OK hold on here. You became friends with MRs girlfriend to get info and got her trust by implying that you took her side i.e. that he is innocent. I don't believe that you were acting impartial.

matou said:

OK hold on here. You became friends with MRs girlfriend to get info and got her trust by implying that you took her side i.e. that he is innocent. I don't believe that you were acting impartial.

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And if I recall many of post where you implied your belief in his innocence. I am not going to waste my time going back to find them but you sure try to make a good argument (but not good enough) each time your called upon to present what you know and what your belief is to his innocence.

You give a pretty good argument whenever someone states his guilt. Enough to make me believe you're on his side of the fence.

Common sense is the main logic to all of this. It's not rocket science as they say. So are you thinking Philip Gar. and Nancy are innocent too? They have plead not guilty and haven't had their day in court...go figure AG. Too bad too many people see the common sense in this case but you don't. You're walking the walk, but you're not talking the talk...KWIM.

I'm sure you will take offense to what I truthfully feel, but I feel I've sat here long enough and read your posts, to know where you're coming from. I quit posting on here for a long time cause of nonsense but now that I've become privy to new info, I feel I have a right to voice my strong need to speak up for an innocent little girl named Victoria and see that those responsible for her death are held accountable. Maybe you should put you're self in TM place whole heartedly then you might get off the fence you're claiming to be sitting on. Go try her shoes on AG. Tell us then how they fit.

matou said:

OK hold on here. You became friends with MRs girlfriend to get info and got her trust by implying that you took her side i.e. that he is innocent. I don't believe that you were acting impartial.

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Sorry, but you're wrong. I never told her that I thought he was innocent and she knows it. I told her exactly what I'm telling you - that I'm impartial until I hear otherwise at the trial. That was good enough to gain her trust and I still have it. In fact, I warned her to be prepared in case he's found guilty, but I was sympathetic to her plight and her feelings. I was sincere and honest then and I still am. Nobody here saw our PMs and our e-mails, but that's how it went down.

And now I'm going back to reading my book. I think I've said everything there is to say and see no need to either repeat or defend myself.

For those not familiar with him:

One legend associated with Santa says that he lives in the far north, in a land of perpetual snow. The American version of Santa Claus says that he lives at his house in the North Pole, while Father Christmas is often said to reside in the mountains of Korvatunturi in Lapland Province, Finland. Santa Claus lives with his wife Mrs. Claus, a countless number of magical elves, and eight or nine flying reindeer. Another legend of Santa says that he makes a list of children throughout the world, categorizing them according to their behavior ("naughty" or "nice") and that he delivers presents, including toys, candy, and other gifts to all of the good boys and girls in the world, and sometimes coal to the naughty children, on the single night of Christmas Eve. He accomplishes this feat with the aid of the elves who make the toys in the workshop and the reindeer who pull his sleigh.

There has long been opposition to teaching children to believe in Santa Claus. Some Christians say the Santa tradition detracts from the religious origins and purpose of Christmas. Other critics feel that Santa Claus is an elaborate lie, and that it is unethical for parents to teach their children to believe in his existence.[6] Still others oppose Santa Claus as a symbol of the commercialization of the Christmas holiday, or as an intrusion upon their own national traditions.

nonfictionrocks said:

For those not familiar with him:

One legend associated with Santa says that he lives in the far north, in a land of perpetual snow. The American version of Santa Claus says that he lives at his house in the North Pole, while Father Christmas is often said to reside in the mountains of Korvatunturi in Lapland Province, Finland. Santa Claus lives with his wife Mrs. Claus, a countless number of magical elves, and eight or nine flying reindeer. Another legend of Santa says that he makes a list of children throughout the world, categorizing them according to their behavior ("naughty" or "nice") and that he delivers presents, including toys, candy, and other gifts to all of the good boys and girls in the world, and sometimes coal to the naughty children, on the single night of Christmas Eve. He accomplishes this feat with the aid of the elves who make the toys in the workshop and the reindeer who pull his sleigh.

There has long been opposition to teaching children to believe in Santa Claus. Some Christians say the Santa tradition detracts from the religious origins and purpose of Christmas. Other critics feel that Santa Claus is an elaborate lie, and that it is unethical for parents to teach their children to believe in his existence.[6] Still others oppose Santa Claus as a symbol of the commercialization of the Christmas holiday, or as an intrusion upon their own national traditions.

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what's your point? this is a thread about Rafferty. Oh yeah, Santa is an anagram of Satan. Thanks for clearing this up.

CuriousJorge said:

And if I recall many of post where you implied your belief in his innocence. I am not going to waste my time going back to find them but you sure try to make a good argument (but not good enough) each time your called upon to present what you know and what your belief is to his innocence.

You give a pretty good argument whenever someone states his guilt. Enough to make me believe you're on his side of the fence.

Common sense is the main logic to all of this. It's not rocket science as they say. So are you thinking Philip Gar. and Nancy are innocent too? They have plead not guilty and haven't had their day in court...go figure AG. Too bad too many people see the common sense in this case but you don't. You're walking the walk, but you're not talking the talk...KWIM.

I'm sure you will take offense to what I truthfully feel, but I feel I've sat here long enough and read your posts, to know where you're coming from. I quit posting on here for a long time cause of nonsense but now that I've become privy to new info, I feel I have a right to voice my strong need to speak up for an innocent little girl named Victoria and see that those responsible for her death are held accountable. Maybe you should put you're self in TM place whole heartedly then you might get off the fence you're claiming to be sitting on. Go try her shoes on AG. Tell us then how they fit.

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i'm curious, please, could you elaborate on this new info and it's source?
TIA

Well, I can see it's been another light and fluffy evening on the MTR thread.

The Bandidos, The Charter of Rights and Freedom, Santa Clause...did I miss any?! Oh, yeah, Satan.

So it's Good vs. Evil. Fiction vs. Non-Fiction.

I guess we are still tossing around all kinds of thoughts regarding MTR's guilt or innocence. I don't know how anyone with direct ties will get any peace, or begin or heal, until the trial is over. THAT won't be for a long time.

I do hope that Rafferty gets his trial, by an impartial jury, so there can be no doubt whatsover that he got a fair shake. I hope the family gets to make victim impact statements, and stare right at both of the accused when they are found guilty, and they feel some satisfaction knowing that a small justice has been served. I also hope that the murderers of Victoria can be made to feel pain and suffering for their terrible act for the rest of their days.

dilbert said:

i'm curious, please, could you elaborate on this new info and it's source?
TIA

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Sorry Dilbert I will not reveal this information. I have shared info in the past and have paid unpleasantly for it. I know someone who is privy to info and they have passed it along to me. I believe this person and their source with 100% certainty. Therefore this info is 3rd hand and we've been warned (by mods) against posting this type of info. No offense intended!

Turbododger said:

Well, I can see it's been another light and fluffy evening on the MTR thread.

The Bandidos, The Charter of Rights and Freedom, Santa Clause...did I miss any?! Oh, yeah, Satan.

So it's Good vs. Evil. Fiction vs. Non-Fiction.

I guess we are still tossing around all kinds of thoughts regarding MTR's guilt or innocence. I don't know how anyone with direct ties will get any peace, or begin or heal, until the trial is over. THAT won't be for a long time.

I do hope that Rafferty gets his trial, by an impartial jury, so there can be no doubt whatsover that he got a fair shake. I hope the family gets to make victim impact statements, and stare right at both of the accused when they are found guilty, and they feel some satisfaction knowing that a small justice has been served. I also hope that the murderers of Victoria can be made to feel pain and suffering for their terrible act for the rest of their days.

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Unfortunately Turbo no one who personally knew Tori will ever heal. Those scars are like huge gapping wounds forever. So hard to go on day to day knowing what happened to this precious little girl. I don't know if I could be in that courtroom listening to the information presented, if that was my child. Thoughts alone could drive one crazy.

Rest in Peace Dear innocent Little Tori. You never had a chance. All that life had to offer you, was so selfishly taken away from you. Sorry Lil Angel. May you have peace and love from Heaven above.

CuriousJorge said:

Unfortunately Turbo no one who personally knew Tori will ever heal. Those scars are like huge gapping wounds forever. So hard to go on day to day knowing what happened to this precious little girl. I don't know if I could be in that courtroom listening to the information presented, if that was my child. Thoughts alone could drive one crazy.

Rest in Peace Dear innocent Little Tori. You never had a chance. All that life had to offer you, was so selfishly taken away from you. Sorry Lil Angel. May you have peace and love from Heaven above.

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I'm with you CJ, I don't think anyone can ever heal completely after something like this happens. The guilt of not having been able to protect my child would drive me crazy for the rest of my life I'm sure every parent whose child has gone missing and has never returned, go through this guilt.

As for MTR, *this is just my opinion, not that it will change anything*, but I believe he has already made a deal, my thoughts keep going back to when Tori's remains were found, she was found because the detective got more information (this info had to come from a source that is close to the case) and based on what TLM had already told him was able to find Tori's remains. Besides being mistreated in jail, there has to be further reasons for MTR getting the better end of the stick.

I'm back somewhat. But I won't be posting so much, I hate all the bickering, it was getting out of hand

CuriousJorge said:

All his "supports" are hiding in the woodwork. No one has gone to the media to protest his innocence.

Thanx Max, we're not the only ones who feel this way I'm sure. I'd still like to hear from those on here to who believe in his innocence and "WHY". Not just because he hasn't been proven guilty yet. That not enough, I want factual info and will even give some consideration to hearsay.

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I find it amusing that a lot of people have decided that's he's guilty because his family and friends have not come out in the media to proclaim his innocence. However, there has been nothing to support that he's guilty either, I have yet to see one person (other then his co-accused accuse him) state in the media that he is in fact guilty. I have not formed an opinion on MTR whether he is guilty or innocent for the simple fact that I have yet to hear one piece of evidence that supports either his innocence or his guilt.

Slightly off topic, though still relevant, I followed a case where someone was charged and found guilty of murder, based ONLY on someone else saying that he was there, yet there was absolutely not piece of physical evidence to support that this individual was actually there, or participated in the crime. The person who did accuse his friend of being there, confessed to the crime also, and yet he couldn't even describe to the LE how the murder actually happened or the location, so people who have been saying that MTR could not have been charged, based on TLM's say so are not correct, because it does actually happen.

I also see a lot of times that people say they have "inside information" yet they never post anything to support this, and when someone wonders if he is innocent they jumped all over by others saying this is not so. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and their views and thoughts, yet I stopped commenting on this board for that very reason, if a few people had a different opinion from the majority, they got told how their view was wrong, without proving why they are wrong, other than because they didn't agree with the majority (that's just MOO).