IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #20

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holly2325 said:
Am I crazy????
I am baffled by the Spierer's pleas about defining oneself. I cannot figure out who they are talking to.
I could understand if this was 3 days later and LS was tucked somewhere beautifully preserved and someone came forward and said, I tried tell her she'd had enough.

But now, coming clean resulting in the Spierer's finding skeletal remains with accusations that LS may not have been dead.

Even if she passed as a result of something she took herself. No 21 year old is going to feel better about coming clean, now. In fact, nothing will make them feel better about themselves at this point. And even friends will think wow, *advertiser censored* is going to be charged with a felony if I talk and LS took these things herself.
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I think they hope someone will at least try to come forward anonymously...
 
holly2325 said:
Am I crazy????
I am baffled by the Spierer's pleas about defining oneself. I cannot figure out who they are talking to.
I could understand if this was 3 days later and LS was tucked somewhere beautifully preserved and someone came forward and said, I tried tell her she'd had enough.

But now, coming clean resulting in the Spierer's finding skeletal remains with accusations that LS may not have been dead.

Even if she passed as a result of something she took herself. No 21 year old is going to feel better about coming clean, now. In fact, nothing will make them feel better about themselves at this point. And even friends will think wow, *advertiser censored* is going to be charged with a felony if I talk and LS took these things herself.
Click to expand...

Well there are many instances where people do confess to all sorts of crimes. I presume that at least in some cases people confess because they feel guilty and confessing makes them feel better.
 
holly2325 said:
Am I crazy????
I am baffled by the Spierer's pleas about defining oneself. I cannot figure out who they are talking to.
I could understand if this was 3 days later and LS was tucked somewhere beautifully preserved and someone came forward and said, I tried tell her she'd had enough.

But now, coming clean resulting in the Spierer's finding skeletal remains with accusations that LS may not have been dead.

Even if she passed as a result of something she took herself. No 21 year old is going to feel better about coming clean, now. In fact, nothing will make them feel better about themselves at this point. And even friends will think wow, *advertiser censored* is going to be charged with a felony if I talk and LS took these things herself.
Click to expand...

If she died of an overdose, that would have been the case from the beginning - In Indiana a person can be charged with murder for providing drugs, even if they were taken willingly.

Regardless, she didn't hide her own body and I don't know how anyone could live with being responsible for that. The Spierers are appealing to moral conscience -- The only thing I find baffling is that they have not gotten answers. I'd like to think that someone would feel better about doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, giving Lauren the respect she deserves and giving her family and friends a chance for answers and goodbyes. :(
 
thesaint said:
This is my thinking as well.

e.g., if, say hypothetically, JR is the responsible POI, it's possible, perhaps even likely, that he packed LS away in his vehicle under the usual assortment of returning home college student gear and high-tailed it back to Michigan.

The area in which JR lives in Michigan is filthy with lakes. And the larger Great Lakes are black holes for shipwrecks and corpses (Jimmy Hoffa is possibly at the bottom of Lake Huron).

JR or anyone he know have a boat docked on one of the big lakes?

More likely, he would've dumped her somewhere that he could tangentially monitor-- a body of water in the vicinity of his Michigan home.
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I've thought of this, too, being from SE MI. If you google it, JR would have a short, straight route N up Orchard Lake Rd. toward more than a dozen lakes. The closest and biggest are Orchard and Cass lakes (very close), with lots of smaller lakes around them. It's a pretty congested area, though, with houses on the lakes. That said, he'd know the area. Getting to/from the Great Lakes is a day trip.

I've read about ketamine re: Amy Winehouse. It has properties that could be of interest to this case: 1) it's actually a tranquilizer so causes staggering, etc. 2) it doesn't last very long (60 min.), which might account for LS being more sober later (if she was), 3) it can cause respiratory issues/failure, and 4) it doesn't seem to combine well with alcohol.

Ketamine seems to be very popular in the UK right now (and in the scene you described). Here's info:

"Ketamine is a human and animal tranquilizer. It is sold in either powdered or liquid form. In its powdered form it can be inhaled, injected, or taken orally (although it also works as a laxative when ingested). ...

Ketamine produces dissociative effects, similar to those of phencyclidine (PCP) and dextromethorphan (DXM). However, ketamine is very short-acting, its effects lasting sixty minutes when inhaled or injected and up to two hours when ingested." http://www.huliq.com/3257/cocktail-containing-ketamine-may-be-related-winehouse-death
 
AbbeyR said:
If she died of an overdose, that would have been the case from the beginning - In Indiana a person can be charged with murder for providing drugs, even if they were taken willingly.

Regardless, she didn't hide her own body and I don't know how anyone could live with being responsible for that. The Spierers are appealing to moral conscience -- The only thing I find baffling is that they have not gotten answers. I'd like to think that someone would feel better about doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, giving Lauren the respect she deserves and giving her family and friends a chance for answers and goodbyes. :(
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Well said. I completely agree with you.:goodpost:
 
holly2325 said:
Am I crazy????
I am baffled by the Spierer's pleas about defining oneself. I cannot figure out who they are talking to.
I could understand if this was 3 days later and LS was tucked somewhere beautifully preserved and someone came forward and said, I tried tell her she'd had enough.

But now, coming clean resulting in the Spierer's finding skeletal remains with accusations that LS may not have been dead.

Even if she passed as a result of something she took herself. No 21 year old is going to feel better about coming clean, now. In fact, nothing will make them feel better about themselves at this point. And even friends will think wow, *advertiser censored* is going to be charged with a felony if I talk and LS took these things herself.
Click to expand...

They are talking to whomever is responsible. It's not important to know who specifically (if anyone) they are targeting. The Spierer's may know or believe the responsible person(s) had an opportunity to take her to ER and obviously they did not.
 
thesaint said:
is MB actually more important/significant than he seems?

consider that if the rumors and speculation pan out, then someone is supplying this crew with their powders and pills.

CR strikes me as someone who'd be horrible at that role. An actual dealer might use CR to handle small transactions with people CR knows, but CR wouldn't be able to handle getting the product from upstream (wouldn't have the resources, first off) and he wouldn't keep his nose out of the supply. Like Wimpy guarding the hamburgers.

JR, on the other hand, comes across through the reports about him (Cranbrook etc) as someone both too smart and too well-taken care of to take the risk that volume drug-dealing in the age of mandatory minimums involves. The game wouldn't be worth the candle to a Cranbrook kid like JR.


Who's that leave (at least from that night)?

The guy with the cleanest, tidiest story, who is up at all hours, supposedly either writing "2 papers at once" or studing for an exam. What exams are there in early June? and if there are exams, it's Summer school. No need for all-nighters.

If the reports of CR and JR having access to these various substances are true, maybe it's because they live either with or in close proximity to the actual supplier?
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MB was among the first to provide DNA and take a polygraph. He has been described by a witness who was at the CVS the next morning as CR's "yes man." I've seen a photo of the two of them and he looks like it too.

JR OTOH does not sound smart to me at all. He was busted for drugs as a freshman in the dorm, thrown off campus with AEPi for drugs and hazing, was busted for breaking into SW with CR, and is described by his peers as a "sketchball." I'm sure there is more dirt than just this.

That's not true about summer school either. It is much more demanding than the regular academic semester. A 3-credit course is compressed from 14 weeks to 5-6 weeks.
 
Someone above mentioned a desire for anonymity for whomever tells the truth about that night. I was thinking that maybe that's why the Spierers seem to have been stressing the 1-800-crimetv option (it can be totally anonymous, maybe less intimidating than LE).

RE: Ketamine - check out this Black Box Warning:
Emergence reactions: Incidence is the least in young (<15 yrs) and elderly (>65 yrs) and with IM use. Psychological manifestations include dream-like states, vivid imagery, hallucinations, excitement, and irrational behavior. Usually short duration but may recur up to 24 hours postoperatively. To minimize incidence, use lower doses with IV diazepam and reduce verbal/visual stimuli.
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Emergence reactions develop during an individual's recovery, or emergence, from a dissociative state, and can be violent; they can be attenuated by bzd use.
 
Jupiter812 said:
They are talking to whomever is responsible. It's not important to know who specifically (if anyone) they are targeting. The Spierer's may know or believe the responsible person(s) had an opportunity to take her to ER and obviously they did not.
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I don't blame them for keeping the pressure on, knowing that while whatever this person did/didn't do may haunt him/her for life, it may be harder for him/her to report it as time passes. And of course they need answers NOW. OTOH, time and even distance may loosen lips for some people. I think there's a window for everything.
 
AbbeyR said:
If she died of an overdose, that would have been the case from the beginning - In Indiana a person can be charged with murder for providing drugs, even if they were taken willingly.

Regardless, she didn't hide her own body and I don't know how anyone could live with being responsible for that. The Spierers are appealing to moral conscience -- The only thing I find baffling is that they have not gotten answers. I'd like to think that someone would feel better about doing the right thing for the sake of doing the right thing, giving Lauren the respect she deserves and giving her family and friends a chance for answers and goodbyes. :(
Click to expand...

I agree with you 100% But you or I would have taken LS to ER. I am trying to
think about what the person who might have done this was thinking at the time and where their thoughts might be now. Maybe they don't think they were responsible and still don't but by the terms of the law they are. For example they shouldn't have had drugs, but Lauren shouldn't have had a fake ID either. It would be more than scary to trust the system to sort all that out.

And I am only covering the accidental substance scenario here, I have no information available to me that rules out abduction.
 
PlainJaneDoe said:
RE: Ketamine - check out this Black Box Warning:


Emergence reactions develop during an individual's recovery, or emergence, from a dissociative state, and can be violent; they can be attenuated by bzd use.
Click to expand...

I've been reading about this stuff. It actually would account for LS' alleged behavior at SW, i.e, stumbling about, being so out of it. It also appears to sometimes lead to aggressive behavior when combined with alcohol ...

But the worst thing I found was this: "[Ketamine] can cause respiratory depression. The heart rate increases as the drug is processed by the body, which can lead to an irregular heartbeat, heart attack or stroke. It is possible to be unaware of an existing heart condition, which means that everyone who uses this drug is putting themselves at risk for potentially severe health consequences with each dose they ingest."

Not good.
 
imkeylime said:
I've been reading about this stuff. It actually would account for LS' alleged behavior at SW, i.e, stumbling about, being so out of it. It also appears to sometimes lead to aggressive behavior when combined with alcohol ...

But the worst thing I found was this: "[Ketamine] can cause respiratory depression. The heart rate increases as the drug is processed by the body, which can lead to an irregular heartbeat, heart attack or stroke. It is possible to be unaware of an existing heart condition, which means that everyone who uses this drug is putting themselves at risk for potentially severe health consequences with each dose they ingest."

Not good.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's the thing about using drugs recreationally...when ketamine is used in a clinical setting, there are professionals there to monitor all the vitals and they can tell when things are getting dangerous, and adjust care as needed. I have used a ketamine/xylazine (xylazine = analgesic because ketamine is a poor analgesic on its own) cocktail in hundreds of small animal surgeries, and they have to be well-monitored post-procedure because of the emergence reactions. In fact, when doing procedures that strongly depend on the animal being in a constant plane of sedation/anesthesia, I & the people I've studied with prefer not to rely on ketamine because of the short duration of action and possibly violent emergence. And I have done procedures, especially when I was relatively inexperienced with monitoring, where one minute the animal was "deep" and the next minute he was ready to walk off the table!
 
PlainJaneDoe said:
Yeah, that's the thing about using drugs recreationally...when ketamine is used in a clinical setting, there are professionals there to monitor all the vitals and they can tell when things are getting dangerous, and adjust care as needed. I have used a ketamine/xylazine (xylazine = analgesic because ketamine is a poor analgesic on its own) cocktail in hundreds of small animal surgeries, and they have to be well-monitored post-procedure because of the emergence reactions. In fact, when doing procedures that strongly depend on the animal being in a constant plane of sedation/anesthesia, I & the people I've studied with prefer not to rely on ketamine because of the short duration of action and possibly violent emergence. And I have done procedures, especially when I was relatively inexperienced with monitoring, where one minute the animal was "deep" and the next minute he was ready to walk off the table!
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That is interesting info. Thank you! (It's nice to hear that you help animals as a profession, you have my appreciation for that as well!) There are so many variables in this case, such as how could LS have been stumbling one moment, ready to party again another, and so forth. Not that this indicates ketamine use, obviously, but it could account for it, perhaps.

I also realize I've heard of this drug before w/o knowing the name, in a scenario where an animal tranquilizer was used as a date-rape drug. I suspect that would have been ketamine.
 
imkeylime said:
I don't blame them for keeping the pressure on, knowing that while whatever this person did/didn't do may haunt him/her for life, it may be harder for him/her to report it as time passes. And of course they need answers NOW. OTOH, time and even distance may loosen lips for some people. I think there's a window for everything.
Click to expand...

That's a good and interesting point. With each passing day the perp becomes more and more distanced and removed. If he is in another country the likelihood is greater and easier. Witnesses, OTOH may be more prone to speak up later rather than sooner.

I would be very keen on reading any material that addresses this "window"--if there is one that has been tracked. For example, young adults who've committed murder or manslaughter--they get an education, start up the career ladder, meet someone, then when they have babies, ZING! they face their moral conscience for the first time. Or they experience an illness or major loss that does the same thing. Basically what drives people to confess.

Pondering ....:idea:
 
One case I recall a man confessed to a murder only once another man served eight years for it...said he felt too guilty, but apparently it took him a while...another recent case a person turned in another person because they had had a fight. That might be a possibility here, if more than one person knows and the one who tells only has knowledge but not actual participation.
 
holly2325 said:
<snipped> Maybe they don't think they were responsible and still don't but by the terms of the law they are. For example they shouldn't have had drugs, but Lauren shouldn't have had a fake ID either. It would be more than scary to trust the system to sort all that out.
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True. It would be scarier to hide a body and live the rest of your life with fear and a guilty conscience though.
 
AbbeyR said:
True. It would be scarier to hide a body and live the rest of your life with fear and a guilty conscience though.
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I just want the Spierer's to get their daughter back and I question if the words they say are specific enough to appeal to the person who knows or motivate a family member of this person to tell where LS is, if this is their goal.



Whoever did this will be haunted forever, confession or not.
 
Her parents have tried to appeal to the students in various ways, setting up the PO box, asking them to come forward anonymously, asking their parents to think about if the situation were reversed, etc...I don't know what more they can do, if one or more of these people has guilty knowledge or actual guilt and is able to ignore their pleas.
 
No one in the media, LE or close to the players has said anything about ketamine. The talk/rumors have been about cocaine and xanax.

Similarly, no one has said anything to contradict the assertions that MB is CR's second-banana, was not necessarily involved in the partying of the evening, and was at work on two papers that were turned in the next day, receiving good marks.

I'm afraid thesaint's speculation on these scores simply takes our eyes off the ball.
 
AnalyticalExaminer said:
No one in the media, LE or close to the players has said anything about ketamine. The talk/rumors have been about cocaine and xanax.

Similarly, no one has said anything to contradict the assertions that MB is CR's second-banana, was not necessarily involved in the partying of the evening, and was at work on two papers that were turned in the next day, receiving good marks.

I'm afraid thesaint's speculation on these scores simply takes our eyes off the ball.
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ITA. What we know of MB is that he worked on the papers and turned them in the next day. There is no information whatsoever to suggest anything else, as far as I can tell.
 
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