IA IA - Elizabeth Collins, 8, & Lyric Cook, 10, Evansdale, 13 July 2012 - #18

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princessk said:
I have never spoken on here, but i do have a degree in English and have taken many Linguistics classes. Language can be interpreted in many different ways. Being from the Appalachia area, i have done many studies on language usage, and the use of "loved that child" can not be interpreted as "unnatural language." The only way to judge that would be to do a detailed study and analysis of THAT particular person's language use throughout his/her life and in many different situations and settings.
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:seeya:Hi, princessk, thanks for your post!
 
I think there are a couple of things to consider SS. First, the girls were believed to be alive when that statement was made (and many people probably still believe they are), and second, they aren't southerners. Maybe it is a regional/cultural thing, but I've heard many people talking about loved ones they've lost say, "I really loved that kid/man/girl/woman" or "I miss that kid", etc.

I once said I should just name my pets Dog, Cat or whatever because that's what I usually called them, and someone told me I should have also named my boys Kid. I still tend to call them that at times (my younger 'kid' is almost 30 and the older one is 35). Mainly things like "I don't know what that kid was thinking," "I have to take the kid to an appointment," etc. My older boy does like it when I call him Number One Son (I'm an old Charlie Chan fan!", but neither of them has ever accused me of not caring about them because of the choice of words I use to talk about them.
 
GrainneDhu said:
I don't mean this in a snarky way but... can you refer me to a link that says this? I thought I'd read/watched almost all the msm stories about this case and I have totally missed this.

Of course, I read/watched all that stuff more than five minutes ago, so it is totally possible I have forgotten. My memory is as old as the rest of me. <sigh>
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You're not alone - I had never heard anything about Lyric living with Tammy. I searched the articles and saw nothing about it. But possibly it was on fb or another site, and was never in MSM.
 
SapphireSteel said:
Again, I am assuming that all the people being described in this Southern way, are alive.

PR could NOT have been talking in a casual, nuanced way.

She was on tv, defending herself.

Natural speech from a grieved mother is "I loved my daughter" or even, "we loved our daughter" or "we loved Jonbenet".

The Ramseys studiously avoid the words "daughter" and "jonbenet".

Try it yourself, all you southerners. Put yourself in the shoes of a grieving mother, those of you who have kids.

Are you really going to say, We loved THAT CHILD

or are you going to say We loved our baby/our daughter/jonbenet

Remember, the key words here are GRIEVING and DEFENSIVE. You must take language in context, not what you'd hear when everyone is alive and well and chatting over lunch...people (myself included) say things in a joking or colloquial manner all the time, which would horrify and be totally out of place if the subject of the joke was deceased, especially in such a horrible way.
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I read a lot and I know I have read the words "that child" many times in books set in the south, even with the child no longer living. When this debate first started I immediately thought, oh, that is exactly how someone from the south would say it; i.e. "That child was everything to us" "That child was the light of our lives" etc. It doesn't surprise me at all that Patsy said exactly what she did.
 
TxLady2 said:
Much has been made of that statement... "we love that child." Patsy Ramsey was from Georgia. People in the South use similar phrases all the time, and we don't always refer to a child by his or her name. It is not distancing, it's more of an affectionate term actually. I realize it sounds different to the rest of the world but it is as normal and natural to us as the sun coming up in the east. Patsy was just speaking about her child like any other Southern lady would.
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I have a friend in Texas whose drawl is so thick it always seems like words are about twice as long for her as they are for anyone else. Lovely! She could read the phone book and I would be completely happy to listen.

Anyway, she has made almost the exact same statement about her own daughter: "I love that child" and "I surely love that child." Her daughter was conceived years after my friend had been told she was incurably infertile and had given up on ever having a biological child, so is treasured as an unexpected blessing. The doctors never could figure out how it happened; my friend tells the story and ends up with "it happened the usual way" which just cracks me up.

She also greets her husband as "Hello my husband" and her daughter as "Hello my daughter." It would sound weird anywhere else but it sounds natural and loving from her. It's obviously part of how she grew up speaking.
 
Confusion said:
I think there are a couple of things to consider SS. First, the girls were believed to be alive when that statement was made (and many people probably still believe they are), and second, they aren't southerners. Maybe it is a regional/cultural thing, but I've heard many people talking about loved ones they've lost say, "I really loved that kid/man/girl/woman" or "I miss that kid", etc.

I once said I should just name my pets Dog, Cat or whatever because that's what I usually called them, and someone told me I should have also named my boys Kid. I still tend to call them that at times (my younger 'kid' is almost 30 and the older one is 35). Mainly things like "I don't know what that kid was thinking," "I have to take the kid to an appointment," etc. My older boy does like it when I call him Number One Son (I'm an old Charlie Chan fan!", but neither of them has ever accused me of not caring about them because of the choice of words I use to talk about them.
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Again, this banter is with people or children who are alive and well. I call my son "kid" sometimes, too....way downunder. :)

I was ONLY talking about Patsy Ramsey, and even then in an o/t kind of way...not at all about this family.

That one sentence from PR started me off on the trek to find out WHY that statement shocked me so much.

I have always been very instinctive, I was just curious as to the mechanics of it....WHY can I pick a liar? How? How come I can do it over the phone? :confused:

Then someone started talking about "truth wizards" in the media - who knew it had a name - but some people are indeed intrinisically more capable of detecting deception.

I am one of them. Statement analysis by no means explains ALL of it, but certainly explains PART of what made my hackles stand up that day.

I could have a field day on this thread but as no one is "suspect", I have refrained from commenting on this particular case, SA wise.

I hope I explained a bit better.
 
foxbluff said:
Hi Cherie.T...I really appreciate your reply on this subj. as it's the second time I've brought up the possible "one hour earlier" if camera doesn't automatically adjust to DST and nobody manually changes time twice a year. My guess is that the mgr has never even given any thought to what hour the camera reflects.

I feel sure that FBI would have immediately checked to make sure camera was running on the correct hour. (IMO, it most likely did.)

However, if the camera time didn't reflect "springing forward one hour", is there any reason LE would have wanted to withhold that tidbit from the general public????
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Brilliant!!!! People make sure their personal clocks get changed, but I wonder how many small businesses check their surveillance clocks; especially in a small town. Wow...what implications that would have! I suppose it depends on the age and make of the device. Could be an hour forward or an hour back? MOO

ETA: My DH's company/store has inside surveillance cameras. Those run off a computer that is always connected to the internet; therefore, their timestamp does not need to be manually changed. He thinks that unless they have that technology on those outside cameras, they would have to be manually adjusted to the correct time each time there is a "time change" during the seasons. That is his humble opinion and therefore my humble opinion...lol.
 
SapphireSteel said:
Again, this banter is with people or children who are alive and well. I call my son "kid" sometimes, too....way downunder. :)

I was ONLY talking about Patsy Ramsey, and even then in an o/t kind of way...not at all about this family.

That one sentence from PR started me off on the trek to find out WHY that statement shocked me so much.

I have always been very instinctive, I was just curious as to the mechanics of it....WHY can I pick a liar? How? How come I can do it over the phone? :confused:
Then someone started talking about "truth wizards" in the media - who knew it had a name - but some people are indeed intrinisically more capable of detecting deception.

I am one of them. Statement analysis by no means explains ALL of it, but certainly explains PART of what made my hackles stand up that day.

I could have a field day on this thread but as no one is "suspect", I have refrained from commenting on this particular case, SA wise.

I hope I explained a bit better.
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That's one of the reasons I don't even bother trying to lie to people. It's so obvious to me when someone lies that I feel like it's also obvious to everybody else if I do (I did try occasionally when I was a kid). I just got so embarrassed saying things I knew weren't true, and assumed the other person also knew weren't true, that I decided very early that I'd rather just tell the truth and deal with the consequences. Life would be so much easier sometimes if everybody felt that way!
 
Confusion said:
That's one of the reasons I don't even bother trying to lie to people. It's so obvious to me when someone lies that I feel like it's also obvious to everybody else if I do (I did try occasionally when I was a kid). I just got so embarrassed saying things I knew weren't true, and assumed the other person also knew weren't true, that I decided very early that I'd rather just tell the truth and deal with the consequences. Life would be so much easier sometimes if everybody felt that way!
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I am not a liar. It is totally against my nature.

In my professional opinion, sadly, lying is usually the first defense...for MOST.

People lie almost automatically, when they think they may be "in trouble".

And yes, most people are useless at it.

The Ramseys would actually rate amongst the BEST I've ever seen.
 
Reverie said:
Now I am wondering if their spending more time together was related to MCM's new job at Casey's? It would solve the childcare situation.?
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It's my understanding that the reason LC was accompanying Gma to Collins house was due to MCM's new job at Caseys.

I was reading about that in the last couple of days...I believe it was NG transcript where MCM is explaining schedules. She indicates that she had been without a job for ?5 or ?6 weeks during which time LC was with her...said they went swimming at a lake (not lake Meyers) almost everyday. She said her job at Caseys was new...I believe she said she had only been there for 5 days when girls went missing. So, in recent time I believe that LC had only been going to Collins hse w/Gma for the last 5 days.

Either MCM or the Gma mentioned that GMa (during that 5 day period) would leave the Collins home around 1:30 in order to get LC home as MCM would be getting off from work at 2 p.m.
 
SapphireSteel said:
I am not a liar. It is totally against my nature.

In my professional opinion, sadly, lying is usually the first defense...for MOST.

People lie almost automatically, when they think they may be "in trouble".

And yes, most people are useless at it.

The Ramseys would actually rate amongst the BEST I've ever seen.
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bbm: that depends on if you think they are guilty or not.... we have a forum here for that discussion:

JonBenet Ramsey - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community
 
The beauty about lies, is they can easily be picked apart by a smart interrogator.

Will that result in a solved case?

Ask Casey Anthony's prosecutors...

The answer is, NO.

Lying is a symptom of deception, but not necessarily of GUILT...at least in court.

:banghead:
 
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