"Reckless, irresponsible": Kansas teacher's "gay is same as murder" Facebook rant

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Charlie09 said:
Teachers make public statements all the time - this is only offensive to some because it's based on the Bible.
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It's offensive to me AS A CHRISTIAN that it's "based on the Bible," but that is not my main concern here.

As a former high school teacher, I know whereof I speak when it comes to colleagues who are sick with prejudice.
 
Nova said:
No. No. No. Let's talk again when you've been equated with murderers for a few decades, since you seem incapable of following the topic here.
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Christians have long had the murderers label put on them. Not even equated to it. Just directly applied.
 
Seek&Find said:
Christians have long had the murderers label put on them. Not even equated to it. Just directly applied.
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??? Ich verstehe nicht. Are you referring to the majority of those who fought for Hitler being Lutheran or Catholic?
 
Gardenlady said:
But it's NOT rare! Otherwise there wouldn't be countless Protestant denominations in the first place (and I single out the Protestants only because they uniquely go bible-only for ultimate authority, as opposed to capital-T tradition, which predates the bible; i have a different and separate problem with the catholic and orthodox churches on this issue lol) who have split and split and split due to different interpretations of different parts of the bible.

So what then? Whose interpretation ultimately prevails? Your interpretation that the bible says homosexuality is a sin akin to murder? Or the liberal Christian's interpretation that the bible says it is not homosexuality that is the sin, but sexual relations that are against one' own nature?

It is an argument that belongs nowhere near our kids In the public schools. This teach made a public declaration, "in front" of students, about his belief that homosexuals are on par with murderers. How then can any parent trust that teacher to treat homosexual students fairly, or to trust that he will field any question regarding, say, gay history, civil rights (he is after all a social studies teacher), etc, impartially?

Let the theologians argue about angels on the head of a pin. Not the public school teachers.
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The split isn't usually over what the scripture says, more over how some want to apply it.

If one reads the verses regarding homosexuality, and the other sins listed along with it, it's very clear what God's position is, especially in the broader context of the entirety of the Bible. And let's be clear the Bible doesn't say, nor has anyone here said, that homosexuality is akin to murder. That's a distortion. The teacher, the Bible, and my post said sin is sin.

The teacher's post accurately reflects what the Bible says, and his beliefs. The only mistake he made in my eyes is in having his students as friends on Facebook. I worked in education/with youth for years, and started out when I was young too. A very clear, strong boundary has to be drawn between teachers and students. IMO teachers should not have students as Facebook friends. It'd be wrong of the school district to discipline him in any way, as they had no SM policy, and teachers still have First Amendment rights to stand for what they believe in.

He was very open that he likewise acknowledged he sinned. Again, he believes all have sinned and fallen short. That means we are all on equal playing field. He doesn't think he's better or gays worse. Yes, I absolutely believe he can do his job effectively and well without mistreating others.
 
Nova said:
I've wrestled with this one myself, having taught numerous fundamentalist students over the years and even one semester at a fundamentalist college.

It's a tough one because fundamentalism is by definition basically opposed to learning. It's certainly incompatible with the scientific method.

I dealt with the issue by asking the students to distinguish between their beliefs and the beliefs of the authors we read. And I allowed them to write about both.
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Huh. I'm not big on labels, but believing in God and His word does not make one "opposed to learning" nor is it "incompatible with the scientific method". Perhaps we've exposed a bit of unintentional bias here?

Absolutely a Christian student should seek to understand the what and why of others' beliefs, as well as an author's POV/theme. Glad you let them compare and contrast voices. :)
 
wfgodot said:
??? Ich verstehe nicht. Are you referring to the majority of those who fought for Hitler being Lutheran or Catholic?
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There are many instances. I don't want to sidetrack with listing them. Suffice it to say anyone with a more than a basic education knows that the label has been applied to Christians more broadly.

I know zero Christians who would consider LGBTs murderers or apply that label.
 
Seek&Find said:
There are many instances. I don't want to sidetrack with listing them. Suffice it to say anyone with a more than a basic education knows that the label has been applied to Christians more broadly.

I know zero Christians who would consider LGBTs murderers or apply that label.
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The classic "blood libel" falsehoods were of Christian invention, blaming Jews for the deaths of Christian children in order "to use their blood in certain aspects of their religious rituals and holidays," the most famous - infamous - involving Hugh of Lincoln in England in 1255. (Wiki) I really can't think of any where the shoe was on the other foot, so to speak.
 
wfgodot said:
A fool and his job are soon parted.

His equation of homosexuality and murder actively indicates that he would not be able to teach gay or lesbian students in a non-discriminatory manner. He has no place in public education.

Yes, we're free to state our opinion; but we're also liable for the beliefs we hold - especially those we express in public forums like Facebook.
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I have to agree with others who pointed out that he did not equate homosexuality and murder, he said homosexuality is sin as are murder, lying, cheating etc and went on to say he too is a sinner.

His statement of belief does not indicate he wouldn't be able to teach LGBTs fairly. He also acknowledged lying as sin. Most consider lying wrong. If a teacher, like most, believes lying is wrong, and that teacher catches a student lying, is the argument that then the teacher could not teach that student fairly?

Christians separate sin from sinners, which we all are. I think he demonstrates conviction, compassion, and courage in his post.
 
Quiche said:
facebook, even though it may be set to "private," is broadcasting. If you wouldn't stand up in front of a public audience and say it (due to manners, for instance, or job preservation :doh: ), perhaps it's better left unpublished on your facebook page? Uhhh, yeah.

I don't ascribe to facebook, won't do it until I know what they're going to do with all the minutia they're compiling-- but this case, like others, is a big hint, folks. A HUGE hint... heck, it'll probably become as powerful a screening tool as credit reports. They'll certainly use what they gather to "deny" you one thing or another... government and insurance companies will lead the pack, then employers, then...?

:moo:
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Yes, he made a public statement of faith, acknowledging God's word and his faith.

I'm with you on Facebook. Not for me!
 
Seek&Find said:
I have to agree with others who pointed out that he did not equate homosexuality and murder, he said homosexuality is sin as are murder, lying, cheating etc and went on to say he too is a sinner.
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What in God's name was he doing, then, when he put them in the following proximity and the following order, when listing - ranking? - them thusly:
"[Homosexuality] ranks in God's eyes the same as murder, lying stealing, or cheating."
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Also, it's entirely possible to be a Christian and not consider homosexuality a sin. Or at the very least to take a step back and rely on the good ol', time-tested, "Judge not, that ye not be judged" from Matthew 7, KJV.
 
Nova said:
Comparing homosexuality to murder is not a benign comparison in a country where murder merits the death penalty. That comparison is practically an invitation to others to commit hate crimes.

But to be perfectly accurate, according to the Bible, God equates homosexuality with eating shellfish and wearing clothing made from two kinds of cloth. There are far more biblical passages condemning divorce.
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First, he in no way advocated hate crimes. God's word lists multiple sins together, as he reflected in his posts. Your issue is with what God has said.

That isn't accurate. You're solely referencing Leviticus here. Homosexuality is addressed in:

Genesis
Leviticus
Deuteronomy
Romans
I Corinthians
Galations
I Timothy
II Timothy
Jude


There are even more when you consider scriptures about fornication (sex outside of marriage). While there are many scriptures about divorce, there are only a few condemning it, ie that God hates divorce and that the Biblical reasons for divorce are adultery/sexual immorality and abandonment.
 
wfgodot said:
What in God's name was he doing, then, when he put them in the following proximity and the following order, when listing - ranking? - them thusly:

Also, it's entirely possible to be a Christian and not consider homosexuality a sin. Or at the very least to take a step back and rely on the good ol', time-tested, "Judge not, that ye not be judged" from Matthew 7, KJV.
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I'm reading from the start of the thread as I'd hopped around before but just saw this.

Would it have been more acceptable to you if he'd put it at the end of the statement, or the middle? How many times can one ignore that he's saying sin is sin?

Yes, to be a Christian, all one has to do is acknowledge that they've sinned, need salvation, and accept Jesus's sacrifice on the cross, and acknowledge Him as their Lord and Savior. Some Christians never crack a Bible - transactional faith. I accepted Jesus, now I'm done. Yes, Christians can be in error about what God says in the Bible.

That verse, in context:


7*“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2*For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

God also calls us to "speak the truth in love". If we believe God's word that homosexuality is sin, and that without repentance and salvation, that person will be damned to hell, to not express that truth when we are called to do so is cruel and uncaring.
 
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wfgodot said:
Evidently he also is deluded enough to think himself able to view the world through the eyes of a deity.

He really should have stuck to giving multiple choice tests about material covered by his textbook.
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He isn't deluded. We can see the world through the eyes of a diety. He's given us His word for that exact purpose. You've self identified as a Christian. Do you not believe in the Bible?? You quoted it a minute ago?? You don't have to answer, just can't figure out your stance...

He wasn't doing this in the classroom.
 
Seek&Find said:
I read it. Unfortunately, it's skewed, skipping over many scriptures and either misinterpreting some or misrepresenting them.
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Nice to see you think you've the ability to better interpret Holy Scripture than does a priest and theologian.

As for seeing through the eyes of a deity: no. we. don't. And imagining that we do leads to all sorts of mischief.

I find your posts generally well-reckoned and always sincere. But questioning if one "believe(s) in the Bible" based on a disagreement in interpreting Scripture seems quite petty.

As the late great Gilbert Keith Chesterton wrote, "The only argument against Christianity is Christians."
 
Nova said:
Then how come we all know about it? Somehow I doubt anyone would know if I yelled "Fire!" in my house.



The two rights are not the same just because you've decided to equate them. What my partner and I do in the bedroom affects no one else. Equating us with murderers is dangerous speech that in the past has proven to inspire others to violence.

Comparing gays to murderers is also lousy logic and that is something we should always deplore.
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There seems to be an inordinate focus on the murder word, IMO. The full statement makes it clear he is saying no sin is greater then any other. It's not like he randomly came up with this idea, or the list. They're pulled from his faith and the Bible. People can say he had no right to express his faith, but then we butt up against the First Amendment. He does have that right.
 
wfgodot said:
Nice to see you think you've the ability to better interpret Holy Scripture than does a priest and theologian.

As for seeing through the eyes of a deity: no. we. don't. And imagining that we do leads to all sorts of mischief.

I find your posts generally well-reckoned and always sincere. But questioning if one "believe(s) in the Bible" based on a disagreement in interpreting Scripture seems quite petty.

As the late great Gilbert Keith Chesterton wrote, "The only argument against Christianity is Christians."
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Tone always is hard to convey online. It wasn't meant in a petty way. I was trying to understand the totality of what you've said. I do value honest communication and understanding. Thanks. :)

If you consider it Holy Scripture as in the first paragraph, I'm not sure how to read the second paragraph.

Lol re: the better than comparison. As we all know, not all priests, pastors, ministers have the same level of belief or scriptural fluency. With just the little I know, I could see whole parts missing. That's all.
 
Gardenlady said:
I'm wondering what would be the reaction of Christian fundamentalists if a teacher posted as his status something like "there is no god but Allah and Muhammed is his prophet".

Wonder if they'd be okay with him teaching their Christian kids in public school, if he said that publicly on his FB page, with students who could see it.
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I'd pray for the teacher, wish him the best, and talk to my son about it (although he already knows some believe that and how our beliefs differ). No, I wouldn't protest at the school, file a complaint, be rude, think he intends harm, etc. Christians know many in the education community hold different views than we do.
 
Nova said:
You can deny it until you are blue in the face, but even you know better. The teacher did not merely say that homosexuality is a sin per the Bible. He took pains to compare it to MURDER. Period. And that's the only reason this thread exists.

We all know some people consider homosexuality to be a sin. Of course, they're full of crap and are cherry-picking the OT prohibitions that suit their own, very human prejudices, but their opinions are hardly newsworthy.

It's the equation of consensual adult activity with violence that is notable because that very equation has long been used to justify violence against gay people. The majority of Americans are practically gleeful about capital punishment for murderers. Again, you do the math.
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He didn't take pains to compare it to murder...??

As addressed earlier, homosexuality is addressed in the Old & New Testament in numerous places.

This teacher is not advocating violence.
 
Code:
T4Tide said:
Because someone he knows personally or through his work brought it to the public's attention. It was probably brought to his local newspaper or network, and then picked up from there. OTHER people made it known, not him. Same as the guy with the "golden voice." I mean, how else would I know about it? He didn't tell me, but the news caught wind of it and then everyone knew.






I am the same as a murderer in the eyes of God. My sins are no greater or smaller. Jesus suffered and died for every murderer, just as He died for me. Murderers, who turn from their evil ways and ask for forgiveness, will worship beside me in Heaven one day. Sin is sin is sin.

I just equated myself with murderers. Does that make you want to kill me or be violent against me? No. (Well... I hope not? :waitasec::floorlaugh:) I don't see the lousy logic. I see salvation.
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Thanks button wasn't enough. Excellent, true post!
 
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