Skull fracture question

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As far as those bathroom pictures, remember they were taken after the Rs moved out and the place had been repainted. I thought I read that the house had been bought by a group of R friends and supporters. It was then completely repainted inside, though I don't think the kitchen and baths were redone. Possibly by one of the subsequent owners. One of them walled off the wineceller.
Just by looking at that bathroom, I really don't see any surface, including the tile edge of the tub surround, that would punch out a hole like that in a skull. As far as it happening in a fall- you have to think like a physicist for a moment. A child the size of JBR just doesn't weigh enough to hit anyhing in a fall that would cause an impact sufficient to put a hole in her skull. Mass x velocity gives the energy (force) in an impact like that. She'd have to fall from a great distance (like off a roof) or something similar. Not just to kill her, but to make a hole like that in her skull. I just don't feel it was from slamming her into anything. It had to be a whack with the flashlight or something similar. IMHO.
 
DeeDee249 said:
As far as those bathroom pictures, remember they were taken after the Rs moved out and the place had been repainted. I thought I read that the house had been bought by a group of R friends and supporters. It was then completely repainted inside, though I don't think the kitchen and baths were redone. Possibly by one of the subsequent owners. One of them walled off the wineceller.
Just by looking at that bathroom, I really don't see any surface, including the tile edge of the tub surround, that would punch out a hole like that in a skull. As far as it happening in a fall- you have to think like a physicist for a moment. A child the size of JBR just doesn't weigh enough to hit anyhing in a fall that would cause an impact sufficient to put a hole in her skull. Mass x velocity gives the energy (force) in an impact like that. She'd have to fall from a great distance (like off a roof) or something similar. Not just to kill her, but to make a hole like that in her skull. I just don't feel it was from slamming her into anything. It had to be a whack with the flashlight or something similar. IMHO.
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DeeDee, if JonBenet already had a blow to the head that caused a depression and fracture, it would be possible to fall and the head hit the ceramic floor at the site of the fracture. Such a fall could cause the original fracture to lengthen. It is also possible Patsy fell on top of JonBenet. I certainly respect your ideas and you may very well be right. I just can not see, from a physics standpoint, how a blow to the head with a flashlight that displaced a piece of the cranium and caused an 8.5" fracture that runs from the back of the head to the brow bone could leave the brain tissue relatively unharmed at the point of impact and leave the scalp unbroken.

I'm assuming if the bathroom has been remodeled they wouldn't have put in a ceramic floor. I may be wrong though and there could have been carpet over the flooring when the Ramseys lived there. There are so many ceramic turns and corners that could have caused that injury in my view. I guess we will never know.
 
BOESP said:
I would suppose it could account for a smaller fracture. There are so many variables. Someone could have pushed and pulled her into a door (or other object) two, three or more times. That type action might also account for the brain damage similar to shaken-baby syndrome.

Another idea came to mind since a dumbbell was found in JonBenet's room. She could have fallen on that. She could have been hit with it and fell to the floor, increasing the width and length of the original fracture due to the pressure of the head hitting the floor.

Either of the above speculations could still fit with Steve Thomas's corporal punishment theory. Like some of the others who post here, I've come to the conclusion that it must mean something when certain photos and statements haven't been made public. There's a reason JonBenet's crime scene bathroom photos are still private.
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I also wonder if the crack occurred on the suture line, on a 6 yr olds skull, how much force it would take? Would the suture line provide enough weakness to have made the breaking of the skull easier than we think?

Just thinking out loud....
 
DeeDee249 said:
As far as those bathroom pictures, remember they were taken after the Rs moved out and the place had been repainted. I thought I read that the house had been bought by a group of R friends and supporters. It was then completely repainted inside, though I don't think the kitchen and baths were redone. Possibly by one of the subsequent owners. One of them walled off the wineceller.
Click to expand...


that was thought to be the case,but someone else posted it was an entertainment area downstairs (tv and all),and the WC was being used for storage.
Just by looking at that bathroom, I really don't see any surface, including the tile edge of the tub surround, that would punch out a hole like that in a skull. As far as it happening in a fall- you have to think like a physicist for a moment. A child the size of JBR just doesn't weigh enough to hit anyhing in a fall that would cause an impact sufficient to put a hole in her skull. Mass x velocity gives the energy (force) in an impact like that. She'd have to fall from a great distance (like off a roof) or something similar. Not just to kill her, but to make a hole like that in her skull. I just don't feel it was from slamming her into anything. It had to be a whack with the flashlight or something similar. IMHO.
Click to expand...

I wonder that,too.If JB was leaning over,then hitting her w the FL would produce a back of the head injury.perhaps Patsy was leaning over her to clean her,and JB was leaning over, too.
 
lovebites said:
I also wonder if the crack occurred on the suture line, on a 6 yr olds skull, how much force it would take? Would the suture line provide enough weakness to have made the breaking of the skull easier than we think?

Just thinking out loud....
Click to expand...

Suture lines can separate from injury. Based on JonBenet's autopsy, the depressed area would have been on or near the suture line between the occipital and right parietal region. The fracture that runs from that depression to the right orbital ridge is not described as running concurrently with a suture line.
 
If PR fell on top of her, there would cartainly be injuries, bruising, etc. that would be seen from that. An adult falling on a child that size could injure, not kill, from that distance. PR was about average height for a woman, right? Not close to 6 feet. She was average weight. And the distance she would fall would be a few feet. To fracture a skull is one thing. To punch out a hole is another. I just can't see it happening from a fall, regardless of what she landed on.
That flashlight is bigger and heavier than you imagine. I have a slightly smaller one. Believe me, if wielded in anger, it could put a hole in a skull, and if it was a skull covered with hair, it might not break the skin. The light end of the flashlight has rounded, not sharp, edges.
I also respect your opinions, as I do every person on this forum. After all, someone is bound to be right!
 
DeeDee249 said:
If PR fell on top of her, there would cartainly be injuries, bruising, etc. that would be seen from that. An adult falling on a child that size could injure, not kill, from that distance. PR was about average height for a woman, right? Not close to 6 feet. She was average weight. And the distance she would fall would be a few feet. To fracture a skull is one thing. To punch out a hole is another. I just can't see it happening from a fall, regardless of what she landed on.
That flashlight is bigger and heavier than you imagine. I have a slightly smaller one. Believe me, if wielded in anger, it could put a hole in a skull, and if it was a skull covered with hair, it might not break the skin. The light end of the flashlight has rounded, not sharp, edges.
I also respect your opinions, as I do every person on this forum. After all, someone is bound to be right!
Click to expand...

I've asked a couple times about Patsy's height and weight and no one has responded. I searched for statistics from her Miss West Virginia days trying to find her height but her vital statistics are not listed. Maybe someone will answer.

If the depression was already there, a second injury such as someone falling on her head could increase the width and length of the fracture particularly if they fell on to a ceramic tile floor or bathtub. Her injury, in my opinion, is more consistent with her hitting something than something hitting her. I re-read some more comments from Steve Thomas and it seems clear he thinks her head was hit on some hard, immoveable object in the bathroom such as the bath tub. The head injury is consistent with that. That's about all I can say unless Boulder releases more evidence.

We have several Maglites around here so I'm familiar with how heavy the bigger professional models can be. I don't doubt they could make a depression. I don't doubt that one striking blow would create a depression, but I doubt it could create an 8.5 inch fracture and not mutilate and or pulverize the brain tissue directly below the point of impact, creating massive tissue damage, not just 7 cc of blood (or whatever it was at the impact point). There seem to be two injuries here: a depression and an extremely lengthy fracture accompanied by internal contusions/bruising all along the fracture line.
 
It is just so frustrating that the coroner did not probe into these very kind of things...were the hole and fractures caused by two separate events, or did the fractures spread out from the hole?
Some of you might not be aware if this- I wasn't- but not all coroners are medical doctors. Coroner can be an appointed position, and part of the LE system of the municipality. Only Medical Examiners have medical degrees. If a coroner is called "Dr"., that may represent a PHD and not an MD. A coroner usually focuses on criminal causes of death. A coroner can pronounce someone dead and sign a death certifcate.
 
SuperDave said:
Well, the cord fibers in the bed were a starting point. That, and the overturned basket of hair ties. What caused the head injury? I seem to remember, perhaps incorrectly, that JB had some heavy furniture in there.
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But does there exist an official source for the nylon cord fibers being found in her room? I know a rope was found John Andrew's room, but it was a sturdy hemp rope. Go to page 4 in the 'photos' section of this link. The picture in the bottom right-hand corner shows the rope:

http://www.realsundancekid.com/

I believe the head injury occurred upstairs, either in her room or in her bathroom, and the ligature/garrote staged scene was done in the basement.

jmo
 
UKGuy said:
rashomon,

Then it would be an accident and the parent would dial 911 for AE.

Maybe she was slammed, but only after being manually strangled.

If all that happened was Patsy becoming enraged with JonBenet, and unintentionally slamming her against some hard surface, why no call to the emergency services, why no medical assistance, they had JonBenet to hospital fast when Burke whacked with the golf club.

What unintentional slamming requires unheard of staging in a child homicide, and a sexual assault cleaned up, and hidden from view?
Click to expand...
I think a furious Patsy intentionally slammed JonBenet against hard surface, therefore it was no accident imo.
 
rashomon said:
I think a furious Patsy intentionally slammed JonBenet against hard surface, therefore it was no accident imo.
Click to expand...

Rash, do you mean with the purposeful intention of trying to harm JonBenet? Or do you mean Patsy lost control, consciously knew she was out of control yet didn't try to reign-in her anger, then decided to go ahead and slam JonBenet's head against something? I'm trying to decide if you mean voluntary manslaughter or murder one (U.S.A. definitions). TIA
 
for myself,I'll go the direct route and say since she had an 8 1/2 in. skull fracture that virtually split her skull in half..I'd say it was intentional.JMO.

perhaps that was the reason ST pursued Patsy and worked on this case so hard...
 
BOESP said:
Rash, do you mean with the purposeful intention of trying to harm JonBenet? Or do you mean Patsy lost control, consciously knew she was out of control yet didn't try to reign-in her anger, then decided to go ahead and slam JonBenet's head against something? I'm trying to decide if you mean voluntary manslaughter or murder one (U.S.A. definitions). TIA
Click to expand...

I have to chime in here. I know we all say rage "accident". But unless one is on PCP or some mind altering drug, to cause a child's head to sustain a fracture that is 8 1/2 inches long is stretching it, imo, to call it an accident. Some might say "reckless disregard". Reckless disregard, imo, is leaving your child in the house for a half hour while you talk outside having a cigarette, and the child is mortally injured because of it - that type of thing.

But this injury requires so much force and lets remember that she is strangled, I believe, before the trauma to her head, and then strangled again in the staging, imo.

So I believe that someone is infuriated and is dragging her. Okay, we could say she is white with rage and loses it and does not realize her own strength. My answer to that would be the proverbial "bull$h*#". Patsy had to know that what she was doing was going to severely hurt JB, but she is really angry with her. What made her so angry? I think she had wet her bed so bad that the shirt she was wearing was soaking and Patsy was disgusted and said "lets go" and JonBenet argued with her and that did it. I really think that is what happened.

I just don't think John was sexually abusing her. I think there was "corporal" cleaning meant to humiliate by Patsy so the bedwetting would stop and also I think she was concerned that her underwear were always damp and I think corporal cleaning took place with that too, as per Linda Hoffman. Patsy claims she did not remember talking to Dr. Boeuf about the bedwetting. Steve Thomas had the records. Why does Patsy feel the need to lie. This is not the CrimeLibrary board where everyone believes every line of bull$h#% that Patsy tries to dish out. Patsy wants to downplay the bedwetting so she does not remember talking to the doctor about it. That is just a lie because there is no way she would forget that. It is unpleasant and somewhat embarrassing for the parent - so she will remember it. But obviously, she does not want it to be a "stickler".

Why? I think it was the cause of the killing that night.
:bang:
 
Solace said:
I have to chime in here. I know we all say rage "accident". But unless one is on PCP or some mind altering drug, to cause a child's head to sustain a fracture that is 8 1/2 inches long is stretching it, imo, to call it an accident. Some might say "reckless disregard". Reckless disregard, imo, is leaving your child in the house for a half hour while you talk outside having a cigarette, and the child is mortally injured because of it - that type of thing.

But this injury requires so much force and lets remember that she is strangled, I believe, before the trauma to her head, and then strangled again in the staging, imo.

So I believe that someone is infuriated and is dragging her. Okay, we could say she is white with rage and loses it and does not realize her own strength. My answer to that would be the proverbial "bull$h*#". Patsy had to know that what she was doing was going to severely hurt JB, but she is really angry with her. What made her so angry? I think she had wet her bed so bad that the shirt she was wearing was soaking and Patsy was disgusted and said "lets go" and JonBenet argued with her and that did it. I really think that is what happened.

I just don't think John was sexually abusing her. I think there was "corporal" cleaning meant to humiliate by Patsy so the bedwetting would stop and also I think she was concerned that her underwear were always damp and I think corporal cleaning took place with that too, as per Linda Hoffman. Patsy claims she did not remember talking to Dr. Boeuf about the bedwetting. Steve Thomas had the records. Why does Patsy feel the need to lie. This is not the CrimeLibrary board where everyone believes every line of bull$h#% that Patsy tries to dish out. Patsy wants to downplay the bedwetting so she does not remember talking to the doctor about it. That is just a lie because there is no way she would forget that. It is unpleasant and somewhat embarrassing for the parent - so she will remember it. But obviously, she does not want it to be a "stickler".

Why? I think it was the cause of the killing that night.
:bang:
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Solace, do you see Patsy as having been immature?
 
I think Patsy was insecure,my.02 worth.I won't try to answer for anyone else.
 
JMO8778 said:
for myself,I'll go the direct route and say since she had an 8 1/2 in. skull fracture that virtually split her skull in half..I'd say it was intentional.JMO.

perhaps that was the reason ST pursued Patsy and worked on this case so hard...
Click to expand...

People can get hurt pretty badly and it still be an accident or an intentional action with an accidental outcome. Some think it is a funny trick to pull a chair out from someone trying to sit down. Most of the time the victim is embarrassed or humiliated at best or bruised up at worst. In some cases it could cause a spinal injury that could paralyze the person but it is doubtful the prankster intended that to happen.

If Patsy's intent was to get JonBenet to obey by marching directly to the bathroom to be cleaned and Patsy carelessly pushed and shoved JonBenet, that would be different than Patsy purposely grabbing JonBenet by the top ponytail and pushing her into the bathtub with the intent of hurting her because Patsy wanted to get rid of a disobedient child. This last example indicates knowledge that the action was going to do harm. The first example indicates the desire to control in order to obtain a desired outcome but not a knowledge the actions would result in lasting physical harm.

I can not see Patsy killing JonBenet on purpose.
 
Solace said:
I have to chime in here. I know we all say rage "accident". But unless one is on PCP or some mind altering drug, to cause a child's head to sustain a fracture that is 8 1/2 inches long is stretching it, imo, to call it an accident. Some might say "reckless disregard". Reckless disregard, imo, is leaving your child in the house for a half hour while you talk outside having a cigarette, and the child is mortally injured because of it - that type of thing.

But this injury requires so much force and lets remember that she is strangled, I believe, before the trauma to her head, and then strangled again in the staging, imo.

So I believe that someone is infuriated and is dragging her. Okay, we could say she is white with rage and loses it and does not realize her own strength. My answer to that would be the proverbial "bull$h*#". Patsy had to know that what she was doing was going to severely hurt JB, but she is really angry with her. What made her so angry? I think she had wet her bed so bad that the shirt she was wearing was soaking and Patsy was disgusted and said "lets go" and JonBenet argued with her and that did it. I really think that is what happened.
Click to expand...
well-said !
I just don't think John was sexually abusing her. I think there was "corporal" cleaning meant to humiliate by Patsy so the bedwetting would stop and also I think she was concerned that her underwear were always damp and I think corporal cleaning took place with that too, as per Linda Hoffman. Patsy claims she did not remember talking to Dr. Boeuf about the bedwetting. Steve Thomas had the records. Why does Patsy feel the need to lie. This is not the CrimeLibrary board where everyone believes every line of bull$h#% that Patsy tries to dish out. Patsy wants to downplay the bedwetting so she does not remember talking to the doctor about it. That is just a lie because there is no way she would forget that. It is unpleasant and somewhat embarrassing for the parent - so she will remember it. But obviously, she does not want it to be a "stickler".
Click to expand...

sure,but I also see her downplaying the pageants in the same manner,why is that?
 
Sorry for a hit and run post, but I would suggest (as I have before) that the 8+ inch split in the skull with no visible trauma could have occurred from a increasing pressure force which burst the skull...sort of like if you sat on a pumkin as compared to hitting it with an object. It need not be a particularly slow pressure increase, just something not instantaneous, like a youngster's head caught under an old-style or malfunctioning garage door. An alternative is a heavy pressure over a time period, like someone standing on or a large weight placed on the head.
 
BOESP said:
People can get hurt pretty badly and it still be an accident or an intentional action with an accidental outcome. Some think it is a funny trick to pull a chair out from someone trying to sit down. Most of the time the victim is embarrassed or humiliated at best or bruised up at worst. In some cases it could cause a spinal injury that could paralyze the person but it is doubtful the prankster intended that to happen.
Click to expand...
but this was so much more,don't you think?
If Patsy's intent was to get JonBenet to obey by marching directly to the bathroom to be cleaned and Patsy carelessly pushed and shoved JonBenet, that would be different than Patsy purposely grabbing JonBenet by the top ponytail and pushing her into the bathtub with the intent of hurting her because Patsy wanted to get rid of a disobedient child. This last example indicates knowledge that the action was going to do harm. The first example indicates the desire to control in order to obtain a desired outcome but not a knowledge the actions would result in lasting physical harm.
Click to expand...

I don't think it started out that way,but perhaps JB was uncooperative once they were in the bathroom (this is only one of my theories),and Patsy just **snapped all of a sudden,feeling the situation w/ JB was just an ongoing hopeless one,and said to herself 'you know what? I'M SICK AND TRIED OF THIS CHILD ! I'VE HAD IT...THIS IS ENOUGH !' And that was that.

that's what I mean by acute decompensation.it's doesn't necessarily mean the person is psychotic.I think Jeffrey MacDonald went into acute decompensation due to the uppers he was taking,however,he wasn't completely out of his mind.
I also keep in mind what SD said on his q's thread..that Patsy had a need for the spectacular,and perhaps altruism was involved as well.
 
Solace said:
I have to chime in here. I know we all say rage "accident". But unless one is on PCP or some mind altering drug, to cause a child's head to sustain a fracture that is 8 1/2 inches long is stretching it, imo, to call it an accident. Some might say "reckless disregard". Reckless disregard, imo, is leaving your child in the house for a half hour while you talk outside having a cigarette, and the child is mortally injured because of it - that type of thing.

But this injury requires so much force and lets remember that she is strangled, I believe, before the trauma to her head, and then strangled again in the staging, imo.

So I believe that someone is infuriated and is dragging her. Okay, we could say she is white with rage and loses it and does not realize her own strength. My answer to that would be the proverbial "bull$h*#". Patsy had to know that what she was doing was going to severely hurt JB, but she is really angry with her. What made her so angry? I think she had wet her bed so bad that the shirt she was wearing was soaking and Patsy was disgusted and said "lets go" and JonBenet argued with her and that did it. I really think that is what happened.

I just don't think John was sexually abusing her. I think there was "corporal" cleaning meant to humiliate by Patsy so the bedwetting would stop and also I think she was concerned that her underwear were always damp and I think corporal cleaning took place with that too, as per Linda Hoffman. Patsy claims she did not remember talking to Dr. Boeuf about the bedwetting. Steve Thomas had the records. Why does Patsy feel the need to lie. This is not the CrimeLibrary board where everyone believes every line of bull$h#% that Patsy tries to dish out. Patsy wants to downplay the bedwetting so she does not remember talking to the doctor about it. That is just a lie because there is no way she would forget that. It is unpleasant and somewhat embarrassing for the parent - so she will remember it. But obviously, she does not want it to be a "stickler".

Why? I think it was the cause of the killing that night.
:bang:
Click to expand...

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
 
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