Casey & Family Psychological Profile #3

concentric said:

That it could come up at trial: that's what I asked, if the defense could possibly try to use it. I guess we will see.

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And as I said before they can try all they want but IMO it will not work, it will not even make it to the court room because she clearly is not mentally ill.

Blackwatch said:

(respectfully snipped) ... The only thing I do know for SURE is Caylee's dead and will not go to bed anticipating a visit from Santa. Caylee will not wake up in the morning with awe and wonder shining from her eyes and that is sad beyond words. ...

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That's been on my mind, too, even in the midst of family today and especially now. A bright light was rudely and prematurely extinguished. At her young age, she looked over at her great grandfather and asked how he was doing: "You tired, papa?" I melt every time I see that video.

Interesting website: http://groups.msn.com/CopingwiththePsychopathNarcissistChild

Toward the bottom is this note: "When my son realized the depth of my love for my granddaughter she became the best weapon he would ever have to use against me. I wasn't about to let that happen. Another thing having this child has done is to help validate that I am a good mother, that the way he has turned out is not my fault."

It seems Cindy's bond to Caylee was like this. She was unable to have such a bond with manipulative Casey, but felt validated and vindicated by normal sunshiney sweet (sigh) Caylee. Which in turn led Casey to even darker more hateful vindictive thoughts worthy of a Shakespeare tragedy and Caylee's death.

Given Cindy's need for perfect appearances, she and George seem to have chosen to hide/cover for Casey's actions all along, very possibly for the better part of 22 years (considering comments on that message board of personalities emerging in some by age TWO!)? If so, they chose to live an absolute LIE rather than to try to find help and a better way. As others have said above, it was a perfect storm in the making, due to their choices (thinking of Dr. William Glasser here).

Compare their head in the sand approach to the parents on the above message board, who are deeply concerned and who are honestly and humbly (without regard for appearances) seeking information and help.

Hugs to all who grieve.

I agree. I think that both CA and KC suffer from the same personality disorder.

This has been posted before, but want to include here this link which is a window into family dynamics mentioned above.

Emails between Cindy and her brother in which he calls her on Casey's lies & brings up past experiences: http://www.cfnews13.com/uploadedFiles/Stories/Local/Anthony pgs 2951-3010 f.pdf

These emails and others are being discussed (again; previous thread is apparently closed) at Find'Her's post http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=76862

ETA: Note also emails at http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...ee,+record,+07/14/08&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us
This section taken from 6/6/2008 written to Cindy's mother: "AS FOR HER PAYING FOR CASEY'S CREDIT CARD, "NO WAY"!!!! IF CINDYS' NAME IS ON THEACCOUNT, I WOULD CANCEL THAT CARD AND CASEY WOULD HAVE TO DO THE BEST SHE COULDDO. I WOULD MAKE HER PAY THE OUTSTANDING AMOUNT AND SHE WOULD NOT GET ANOTHERCARD WITH MY NAME ATTACHED TO IT , NO MATTER WHAT.

"WHAT ABOUT CASEY'S CAR? IS CINDY MAKING PAYMENTS ON THAT TOO? IF SO I WOULD GIVE HERJUST SO MUCH TIME TO GET ANOTHER JOB AND SHE WOULD HAVE TO MAKE THE PAYMENTS OR IWOULD LET THEM REPOSSESS THE VEHICLE."

I post this just to illustrate that others in the extended family recognized that things were "off", and had been for a long time. Yikes. Tip of the iceberg...

I'm off to bed now. Again, regards to all who grieve.

I'd love to hear one of the experts they'll no doubt be parading through court say just that. Either side...doesn't matter...let 'em just cut to the chase.

PS- I do believe she's a sociopath FWIW

Much of this list couldn't apply to Cindy, but it all seems to fit Casey going by reports of and seeing her behavior. One thing we haven't heard though is "outrage over insignificant matters". I'd be curious to know if Casey went into rages over not being able to find a shoe or over Caylee spilling something for example. Amy said she was always pi$$ed off about something or other, but wasn't specific enough.

Penelope said:

Regarding the alleged treatment of Casey by her mother, Cindy:
While I acknowledge that we do not know what has gone on behind closed doors in the Anthony home during Casey's childhood, I have my own theories based on the history of my pre-teen step daughter's relationship with her mother.
-- When my step-daughter was a baby/child, her mother projected the image of the most perfect, loving and doting mother for all to see. Her daughter was a special child, with gifts that made her superior to all other children. She controlled who her daughter played with (her daughter was seldon allowed to play with other children) and interfered in any interactions her daughter had with playmates.
-- She was constantly kissing and holding her daughter in public and talked baby-talk to her until she was 8 years old.
-- Slept in a single bed with her daughter until her daughter was 7 years old.
-- Behind closed doors it was different-- when her daughter was not submissive to her wishes, she would react with a terrible anger and yell at her and degrade her. This escalated into occasional physical abuse. Her daughter was forbidden to talk to others about what occured in the home. Eventually, her daughter learned to yell back at her and scream curses at her, just like her mother does. Then the daughter would get punished for cursing at her mother and not respecting her, even though the daughter learned this disrespectful behavior from watching her mother.
--Numerous times when my stepdaughter was visiting us, she would get upset when we would show attention to other children including her younger cousins because she wanted to be the center of attention.
-- When one meets my stepdaughter now, they see a beautiful and charming girl with a beautiful and charming mother. Behind the surface, my stepdaughter is narcissistic and insecure, and has the same anger issues that her mother has. Like her mother, she has learned to hide it.

My stepdaughter is just entering her teen years-- and I shudder to think of what is going to happen once the hormones kick in. I also wonder what the mother/daughter relationship will be like-- since there is such love/hate between the two of them. Because of their dynamic, I am interested in -- and horrifiedby -- the Anthony family and what has happened to Caylee.

I believe a lot of who Casey is today is in reaction to being raised by her mother. And I believe the entire family is in damage control mode, but they are having difficulty covering up who they really are because their behavior is under such a microscope.

God bless Caylee-- she deserved much more than the family she was born into.

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Splitting is what the step daughters mother was doing. It causes so much damage to the child because they can feel unlovable, unworthy, alone and afraid. The children have no idea what will happen next. These kinds of people love you... until they don't (there doesn't even have to be a reason!). They need you.. until you need them. They cause much damage!

Please tell me you have the step-daughter in therapy? Poor kid has had a hell of a time! :blowkiss:

Pink Panther said:

I agree. I think that both CA and KC suffer from the same personality disorder.

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Ya know, with every big discovery that was made, like the decomp in the trunk, I was always expecting CA to finally have her AHA! moment, but it never happened. That's when I realized this goes beyond wanting to keep her daughter out of jail...there are definitely "issues", KWIM.

sharpar said:

There is no basis for a diminished capacity or mental defect defense
and I seriously doubt the prisoner would ever allow such a defense
to be presented. KC is innocent in her mind .

As much as KC wants to be special and unique there are many in prison
and walking around just like her . She isnt extraordinary but she certainly took things to the extreme. Cindy certainly contributed in the
same respect all parents affect the adult their children become but
she is not to blame . KC made alot of poor choices and she alone
is responsible for them.

Malignant narcissists come from normal loving homes and severely dysfunctional ones . KC chose her narcissism in many ways while Lee
may have other issues he doesnt appear to be narcissistic .

There are replicas of the Anthonys in every neighborhood - you may
know them and not even realize it . The public presentation is a mask
and the real dymanics lay hidden and behind closed doors.

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Boy aint that the truth!

txsvicki said:

Much of this list couldn't apply to Cindy, but it all seems to fit Casey going by reports of and seeing her behavior. One thing we haven't heard though is "outrage over insignificant matters". I'd be curious to know if Casey went into rages over not being able to find a shoe or over Caylee spilling something for example. Amy said she was always pi$$ed off about something or other, but wasn't specific enough.

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I don't think this list is the "be all and end all" of all things sociopathy. Though, that would be interesting to know. I kinda remember AH mentioning something. Oh, now I'll have to try and search.

PS- one other symptom...abuse of drugs and alcohol

Lavanda Dolce said:

Sorry I had to chuckle at the sentence above. Trust me, if you've ever known a true narcissist....you would realize it. I know. I was born and raised by one.

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Several of us here were raised by personality disordered parents also. IMO that is how we were able to spot it in Casey and IMO Cindy. Cindy reminds me SOO much of my mother. I wanna spit in her face when she goes on TV denying she said things that we heard with our own ears. and she defends and stands by that lie even if the proof is shoved her face. "I never said that" then she attacks and attempts to degrade anyone and everyone she feels has "wronged" her. Tim Miller, LP, Kathy from the TV station, the protesters in the street, hanging out in the lawn with a hammer.. calling people "maggots" and "stupid" because they are not acting the way or treating CINDY like CINDY thinks she should be treated.

It is so easy to spot that- splitting!

FLjay said:

1. "You tired, papa?" I melt every time I see that video.


2. It seems Cindy's bond to Caylee was like this. She was unable to have such a bond with manipulative Casey, but felt validated and vindicated by normal sunshiney sweet (sigh) Caylee.

3. Which in turn led Casey to even darker more hateful vindictive thoughts worthy of a Shakespeare tragedy and Caylee's death.

4. Given Cindy's need for perfect appearances, she and George seem to have chosen to hide/cover for Casey's actions all along, very possibly for the better part of 22 years (considering comments on that message board of personalities emerging in some by age TWO!)? If so, they chose to live an absolute LIE rather than to try to find help and a better way.

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FLjay, I had to number your thoughts so I could respond. Hope you don't mind
1. Like you, it tears my heart out everytime I see that part of the video too.

2. I absolutely agree, however, that is completely normal. It is much easier to love someone that recipricates. I don't think Casey ever recipricated. Thus, the actions of Cindy and George here are completely 100% normal.

3. And that, I believe, is the motive for Casey killing Caylee. Out of sheer jealousy. I also believe the actual scenario was that Casey may have planned to kill more than just Casey. I'm wondering if her initial plan was to kill Cindy...and because that was much more difficult to carry out...her jealousy and rage took hold of her and she turned to Caylee, instead. The "how to break a neck" doesn't necessarily mean it was searched to use on Caylee. Maybe it was a way she thought about killing Cindy her own mother? I believe the hatred towards Cindy was over the top. Same as the "homemade weapons".

4. I can't agree, nor disagree, with that statement as we do not yet know how much time and effort (either way) that Cindy and George may have provided Casey. We don't know if they exhausted therapy for her. Obviously, Cindy was fond of therapy as she was getting it herself prior to Caylee's death as it was her therapist that recommended she take custody of Caylee. Hence, there were discussions ongoing about Casey. At the same time, because Casey is an adult...Cindy couldn't exactly make her go to therapy. IT would be my guess that perhaps as a teen that Cindy had Casey in some kind of therapy...because I believe her traits and actions have always been narcisstic and problomatic between mother and daughter. Time will tell as I'm sure that will come out at trial. (previous therapy for Casey.)

Pink Panther said:

I agree. I think that both CA and KC suffer from the same personality disorder.

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Now this I totally disagree. I don't support whatsoever the actions Cindy did..I truly believe she was in deep denial. However, I do not believe that Cindy and Casey has the same personality disorder. Cindy was a nurse. She had goals. She provided a home for her family and granddaughter. She does not come across as selfish or self centered in any way. she does not come across as a narcisstic person. Fact is, and anyone will tell you...most nurses are extreme care-givers. Used to being "walked all over" by those around them...because they are overly nurturing. It's thier nature and its the career path that they took.

Cindy recognized hard times as she was seeing a therapist. Casey would never have.

No....I believe it is exactly the opposite personality problems that caused the clashes between Casey and Cindy.

Cindy could "fix" nearly any problem (hence is why she is the dominant one in the family)...again, by nature as that is also very common with nurses....yet, unfortunately, she couldn't "fix" Casey.

I think George was caught in the middle of the two as he loved both and didn't know HOW to fix the problem between the two so he stayed out of it....and became the passive parent. Perhaps due to his own occupation as a cop, and we all know cops have ego's and are NOT passive....but that is the role he took in parenting for fear that if he did use his cop personality it would compound problems in the household. I believe that is why he turned to gambling to avoid the problems. It wouldn't surprise me if he even possibly sought a "way out" himself by divorcing the family............until Caylee. Then there was hope again for normalcy.

OneLostGrl--

(Sorry, still tring to figure out the "quote message in reply" feature!

My stepdaughter's mother finally agreed to put her in therapy a little more than a year ago. Of course, it's mother-daughter therapy, with the mother in the same session with the daughter. (Sometimes the daughter gets to see the therapist in private.) The daughter told me that her mother sometimes "freaks out" in sessions. I perceive this as a positive-- at least the therapist gets to see the real mother.

Oh, forgot to include some details-- when the girl was 6 1/2 years old, she and her mother got into a big fight because the girl was found crying at school and told the teacher that her mother was "under a curse and she was afraid she would get the curse." (Her mother had told her daughter that she suffered from a curse that has been passed down for generations and she was afraid her daughter would get it. I believe this so-called curse was bi-polar disorder and anger issues, but her mother always called it a curse. The mother's mother and grandmother had both suffered from mental illness.)

We received a phone call that my stepdaughter had locked herself in the bathroom and was telling her mother that her life was horrible and she had nothing to live for. I was the one who talked her out of it, and the mother told my husband to come and get her.

My stepdaughter lived with us for a year and a half-- which was wonderful on one hand and totally stressful on the other since the mother was calling 2 to 3 times a day, telling the daughter how much she missed her, and my husband would not set up limits on these phone calls. Eventually, the mother turned the stepdaughter against me, showered the girl with gifts, and convinced her that all would be wonderful if she came back to live with mommy.

The stress on my marriage was so great, we agreed to send her back. But at least she was doing better and had learned to read. (When she arrived at our house, she was in the middle of second grade and was reading at a 1st grade beginner's level.)

I feel bad for her, but my husband's cultural beliefs prevented him from fighting the mother for custody. I did as much as I could, but the mother was very jealous that I would replace her as the "mother" in her daughter's eyes, so she did everything she could to undermine my influence. If I had to buy my stepdaughter an article of clothing-- say a dress-- her mother would then send a package with 3 dresses in it to show that she loved her more and was a "better mother." It is very disturbing to watch this kind of behavior and not be able to do more to help the child.

OneLostGrl said:

Several of us here were raised by personality disordered parents also. IMO that is how we were able to spot it in Casey and IMO Cindy. Cindy reminds me SOO much of my mother. I wanna spit in her face when she goes on TV denying she said things that we heard with our own ears. and she defends and stands by that lie even if the proof is shoved her face. "I never said that" then she attacks and attempts to degrade anyone and everyone she feels has "wronged" her. Tim Miller, LP, Kathy from the TV station, the protesters in the street, hanging out in the lawn with a hammer.. calling people "maggots" and "stupid" because they are not acting the way or treating CINDY like CINDY thinks she should be treated.

It is so easy to spot that- splitting!

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Hi Lost Girl! What I'm thinking is very sick, but what isn't with this case? Here it is: KC is testing CA's love for her by doing away with Caylee and seeing if CA still supports her.

What do you think?

OneLostGrl said:

And as I said before they can try all they want but IMO it will not work, it will not even make it to the court room because she clearly is not mentally ill.

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:clap::clap::clap:

You can say that again.

I would like to add my two cents to this discussion about Casey and the family dynamics. I think the emails between Rick & Cindy’s and the emails from Mrs. P to her sister about Cindy, George & Casey give a new look at this family.

If you read Mrs. P’s interview with LE I find it interesting in the fact that Mrs. P. is very much into ‘how it looks to outsiders’ just as much as Cindy does. The exchange about the Caylee not being hungry since she had popcorn at the nursing home and that is why she did not eat the Chili but she did have peanut butter and jelly sandwich to me is a perfect example of how Mrs. P had to make every thing look ‘normal’ to others.
[Page 665 Lines 1-6]
To me an almost three year old would have no interest in eating chili for a meal. They may try a spoonful but it would not be something I would expect any small child to really want to eat. It is not a food that small children dive into, although I am sure there are some exceptions. To attempt to make the LE interviewer think that the serving of popcorn is why Caylee did not eat the chili is absurd in its on right. Why not just say that we thought we would see if she would like it but well, as expected she didn’t so I gave her the old child tested and child loved standby peanut butter and jelly. Why go into the whole popcorn, chili and peanut butter & jelly sandwich bit? To minimize the fact the two adults did not think that a small child would not want chili for a meal and that would make them look bad, hence Caylee filled up on popcorn and was not hungry enough for chili.

Also when asked some questions about the date of June 9th Mrs. P. states that she even would have sworn it was the 8th but it was Father’s day. Mrs. P. is giving cover to Cindy for being wrong about the date by saying that she thought the same thing also.
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Why? To minimize the fact that Cindy was ‘wrong’. Cindy cannot be wrong. She is my daughter and my daughter is not wrong.

During the discussion about Caylee being missing and the proper date that Caylee was visiting at the nursing home Mrs. P. makes the comment “that is whole week in our favor” is odd.
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Again Mrs. P. is minimizing the fact the Cindy was wrong with the date.

When Mrs. P. speaks about Casey not coming to see her and her husband since April it is not because of any estrangement between Casey and her grandfather. She just doesn’t know why…
[Page 663 Lines 17-20]
Again Mrs. P. is not telling LE what she knows. She is attempting to make things look as though there is nothing wrong in the family.

The entire interview is laced with these types of comments. Mrs. P. does not want anyone to know that there have been problems with Casey or that there have been problems between George and Cindy. Mrs. P. wants LE to think that everything is ‘normal’.

The name calling between Cindy and Rick although you do have to factor in normal sibling push and pull to me is another sign that dysfunction has been passed down from Mr. & Mrs. P to the children. At ages 50 & 55 there emails show them to be acting like pre teens. It has been way past the time to grow up and act like adults. I get the fact that Rick was attempting to get Cindy to see what was in front of her nose but it appears that they are still enmeshed in the way that they have been raised to handled strife and crisis within a family; point the blame finger, make outlandish comments and call each other names and ridicule each other. That is a learned behavior. They learned that from someone and it is usually the parents.

As far as Mrs. P. emails to her sister, you are only getting the view that Mrs. P. wants her sister to know about Cindy, George, Casey & Caylee or the view that Cindy has given Mrs. P.

It is not difficult, for short periods of time, for the mentally ill especially BPD, narcissist PD or the sociopath to act normal in front of others. It is only in the long term, close contact with such persons that one starts to recognize the inconsistencies and problems.

My opinion is that there has been long term mental and possibly physical abuse that has been passed down with in this family. Cindy, from what we have of seen her behavior as well as what she says and the assorted facts that have been made known acts like she is a classic functioning BPD.
George, with his one demeanor with LE, and a totally different one to the public makes me think major long term damaged and broken down self-esteem issues. The only person he feels remotely comfortable with is LE because that may have been the only time in his past, while being in LE when he felt some self-confidence. He has been told he is worthless, a no good for nothing loser for so long that it has become a self fulfilling prophecy and he can no longer act on his own. He has to have Cindy in his life to function. His interviews with LE and his requests not to tell his son Lee that he is at the police station, not to tell Cindy he said this or said that is shows just how afraid he is of being seen as going ‘against’ the family.
As far as Lee I have not spent a lot of time in going over his statements and media comments. I think there are some major issues between him and his father but I suspect that Cindy is the one who was the instigator of those problems. It fits with BPD. The goal of the BPD person is to pit one against the other then destroy any love, respect between them causing them to feel loss. While vulnerable, the BPD becomes their life- line and puts himself or herself in the role of savior to gain full control. The fact that Lee moved out of the family home makes me question if this process failed or that it was actually working but Caylee came along and the focus was switched. The relationship between Casey and Lee is odd to say the least. I just cannot tell whether Lee is another Casey but more functional or he has just learned survivor skills and can act like the ‘family’ when he has to and can turn it on and off. Lee’s interview with LE just does not sit right with me and I have my suspicions he is up to his neck in something he does not want known.
Casey, well I think that there will be some greater minds than mine that will not be able to agree on what is wrong with her. I also think there will be books written about her for years to come. I will keep my opinion on her to myself, at least for now. Maybe after the trial is complete when more information is known I will venture a guess.

FLjay said:

That's been on my mind, too, even in the midst of family today and especially now. A bright light was rudely and prematurely extinguished. At her young age, she looked over at her great grandfather and asked how he was doing: "You tired, papa?" I melt every time I see that video.

Interesting website: http://groups.msn.com/CopingwiththePsychopathNarcissistChild

Toward the bottom is this note: "When my son realized the depth of my love for my granddaughter she became the best weapon he would ever have to use against me. I wasn't about to let that happen. Another thing having this child has done is to help validate that I am a good mother, that the way he has turned out is not my fault."

It seems Cindy's bond to Caylee was like this. She was unable to have such a bond with manipulative Casey, but felt validated and vindicated by normal sunshiney sweet (sigh) Caylee. Which in turn led Casey to even darker more hateful vindictive thoughts worthy of a Shakespeare tragedy and Caylee's death.

Given Cindy's need for perfect appearances, she and George seem to have chosen to hide/cover for Casey's actions all along, very possibly for the better part of 22 years (considering comments on that message board of personalities emerging in some by age TWO!)? If so, they chose to live an absolute LIE rather than to try to find help and a better way. As others have said above, it was a perfect storm in the making, due to their choices (thinking of Dr. William Glasser here).

Compare their head in the sand approach to the parents on the above message board, who are deeply concerned and who are honestly and humbly (without regard for appearances) seeking information and help.

Hugs to all who grieve.

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You are sooooo on the money. Very well put and explained.

Thanks for posting this.

OneLostGrl said:

And as I said before they can try all they want but IMO it will not work, it will not even make it to the court room because she clearly is not mentally ill.

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Marry Christmas, OLG!

Pink Panther said:

I agree. I think that both CA and KC suffer from the same personality disorder.

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The nut didn't fall far from the nut tree. Those two will BOTH be studied and written about for a long time.