Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

snoofer said:

Except by that theory (red) then we would have no crime, no robberies, other kidnappings, etc. Criminals are tracked all the time by video at stores etc. Even in London, England where CCTV cameras scope every street the entire city, police have tracked robbers, terrorists, murders leaving their house in the morning, followed them to the scene of the crime and then back home again, step by step. Criminals while going about their criminal day forget about the cameras, like background noise. JMO

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JMO
my last post on this issue...I understand that many a thief has forgotten about a camera but what I am saying is IF they were so particular after the crime to cover their steps..ie: toss the clothing...wash the car...lose a car seat...etc. etc. why not be concerned at the start to cover their tracks... doesn't make sense to me at all...JMO and now I have stated all I want and from this debate I will move on....respectfully....

Ardy said:

Well.........my view would be that if TLM's letters were known to the Crown, they should have brought them in and questioned TLM on them.

The defense brought them in and questioned TLM on them.

A trial is the search for the truth, and the danger for the Crown is the jury will trust the defense to do a better job of doing that.

As always JMO..................

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Yes, the Crown would legally have to be aware of all the evidence, including TLM's letters and journal entries. But it makes perfect sense that they did not want to go there - it serves no purpose to them when trying to gain a guilty verdict for MTR. Conversely, it was to the defence's advantage to show the jury exactly what TLM was capable of and what her fantasies were vis a vis violence and revenge. We know she extracted revenge as recently as this past January. There may be many more cases of it where she just didn't get caught. The defence may be trying to suggest that TLM blaming MTR for orchestrating this crime and for the alleged sexual assault was another form of revenge towards the man who had a gazillion other girlfriends and didn't give her the respect she wanted. And isn't it said that "misery loves company"?

These are experienced, highly-skilled lawyers. They're both doing their jobs with what they have available. I trust that there's a reason for everything.

JMO

I would add to my own post above..........

Think about TLM...........

She has manipulated counselors, probation officers, social workers, he mother, everyone around her for half of her life.

She manipulated LE and the Crown with her false statement.

She manipulated the family of VS with her statements at her sentencing.

Think about what her own lawyer said...................

They discussed the crime together for months. They wept together. TLM poured out her heart........................

And when her lawyer wasn't there.......she said she had no regrets and would gladly do it again.

TLM is a person who can never be rehabilitated. She was already in her mind set long before she met MR.

Her assertion that MR had this power over her and she could do nothing about it............is laughable.

The evidence is that she was the one who did the controlling in her life, not the one being controlled.

If controlling TLM was that easy, she wouldn't have spent half her life in jail.

Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.

JMO................

Macright said:

ah but that is my point...any fool today would know that there are camera's everywhere you turn...but if someone had NOTHING to hide or was not doing anything wrong why would they worry about cameras..NOW if someone had a small child on the floor of their car covered with a pea jacket and were on their merry way to rape and murder this child..well then one would think that they would worry about being seen on a camera...the ATM machine..the Tim Hortons and the Home Depot...maybe a short detour to a house to pick up their supply of drugs but I am sure they would not have taken chances of being seen on camera... so that's why I cannot go with the flow and state that MR knew before he started out that all of this was going to transpire and could hardly contain himself...JMO JMO

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But MR thought he was safe from the lens. That is why he sent TLM on a walk to the school to abduct Tori. He knew he wouldn't be able to convince a child of leaving with him. He sent TLM into HD to make the purchase because he knew there were cameras in the store. He really didn't have much of a choice going to the bank machine as it was his account and he probably feared TLM taking more money from his account and pocketing it. We know he had just over $100 in his account, but he was probably expecting another cut from CS. Remember MR tried to withdraw $100 and it wouldn't let him? He only managed to get $80. That tells me he was expecting another deposit from CS that day. MR also parked away from HD and other vehicles in case Tori should act up. He didn't want anyone to hear or see her. He probably never figured there were cameras on the building. Same with at Timmies. I would imagine he was addicted to Timmies and possibly wanted his tea to wash down his drugs with. He wanted to save the bottled water for clean up. MR figured if he was caught on video he could explain it away as he TLM and Victoria were not spotted on video with him. MR thought he was being smart covering his tracks but in reality he was really dumb as all the evidence goes to show. All JMHO and stupid people do stupid things.

Ardy said:

I would add to my own post above..........

Think about TLM...........

She has manipulated counselors, probation officers, social workers, he mother, everyone around her for half of her life.

She manipulated LE and the Crown with her false statement.

She manipulated the family of VS with her statements at her sentencing.

Think about what her own lawyer said...................

They discussed the crime together for months. They wept together. TLM poured out her heart........................

And when her lawyer wasn't there.......she said she had no regrets and would gladly do it again.

TLM is a person who can never be rehabilitated. She was already in her mind set long before she met MR.

Her assertion that MR had this power over her and she could do nothing about it............is laughable.

The evidence is that she was the one who did the controlling in her life, not the one being controlled.

If controlling TLM was that easy, she wouldn't have spent half her life in jail.

Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.

JMO................

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JMO it's funny..when I read this the other night I thought of TLM...I realize that these children had a different upbringing but I found it interesting that the Mother blamed the genes.... if that has any truth to it..combine it with the upbringing of TLM and you have a time bomb on your hands...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...troubled-past-How-terrifyingly-wrong-was.html

Macright said:

I can hardly wait for the defence to have their turn and it will be so interesting to see what they have up their sleeve..we know that they cannot say anything that they can't prove nor can they lie.... funny thing is all these lawyer are usually friends outside of court and sometimes socialize...funny isn't it when they go head to head in a court room...they are all cut from the same cloth so to speak...JMO

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Many of them travel in the same circles.

Also interesting to note..........TLM's defense lawyer is now a Judge.

From reading about her involvement with TLM, she said it was the only case where her client had pleaded guilty.

Despite what some may say, defense lawyers are honest as well.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/2011/12/21/19153116.html

brighidin said:

Hi Ardy
I get what you are saying. This is how I see it though:

The purpose of the trial, from the Crown's perspective, is to prove the defendant's guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. TLM's guilt has been established. The letters are not relevant to the Crown's case against MR.

The defense's best best is to pin as much of this on TLM as they can. That (how evil and sociopathic TLM is) is one of their best chances to create reasonable doubt in the jury's mind and that is why Derstine brought up the letters. I think it is also why Derstine keeps reminding the jury that TLM listens to violent rap music.

I don't think lawyers are out to find the truth. The Crown has a job to do and so does the defense, that is their focus. ETA: I am not saying they would lie; just that their focus is either prosecuting someone, or defending someone, that is it.

IMO

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And twisting the truth so it fits their client. Oh but lawyers do lie. If the evidence isn't there to back it up, why can't they lie? Looks at the CA case for example. Was there any evidence that Hailey drowned in the pool? Was there any evidence GA and LA molested CA? Nope there wasn't any evidence of either. JB lied, bold out lied to raise a reasonable doubt with the jurors and that's how Derstine will try and cover MR's azz. Lies, lies and more lies IMHO. BUT also in MHO, Derstine just isn't cutting it so far. I typed out a list of all the witnesses he has cross examinations thus far, and I do not see one single thing where he has raised a reasonable doubt with me. Actually most of his questions seem rather just out there in no mans land, kwim. I can hardly wait to hear how Derstine's cross comes into play if at all. Then again, that's JMHO.

Macright said:

JMO it's funny..when I read this the other night I thought of TLM...I realize that these children had a different upbringing but I found it interesting that the Mother blamed the genes.... if that has any truth to it..combine it with the upbringing of TLM and you have a time bomb on your hands...
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...troubled-past-How-terrifyingly-wrong-was.html

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People with large families often find that one child gives them a lot more trouble than the other ones did.........same parents, same rules, different results.

I read about a survey conducted by Harvard University, where they interviewed their top students about their backgrounds and their parents.

All of them had one thing in common.

Their parents set the ground rules early, and then let them live their own lives. They made their own decisions and paid the consequences for them.

In other scenarios, where parents set the ground rules, but the kids get into loads of trouble..........we blame the parents.

When my son was entering high school, he started hanging around with this one boy. Soon a couple of "concerned parents" told us that we should watch out because this boy was seen skateboarding at night and was up to no good.

We were concerned of course, but the boys only hung out for a short time.

A few years later I learned the "bad boy" had been offered the choice of a full academic or athletic scholarship from different Universities, while the "good boys" were dropping out of high school and getting into trouble with the law.

I also read a study that was taken over the course of many years.

They found that early childhood education was beneficial until the age of 8, at which time all the kids were basically found to be at the same academic level.

I think our views on parenting and how kids develop are mostly the product of misinformation and urban legends.

In my opinion, something extremely awful happened to TLM around the same age as VS. She refers to flashbacks of herself, when talking about the sexual assault............and it almost seems as if she is describing a scene from her own past.

Who knows where she was placed back then. Who knows what someone did to a vulnerable child that had been abandoned and left to them.

She is the product of her environment, of that I have no doubt.

But it was I think, an extreme environment that contained not only an absence of love............but some terribly traumatic events were heaped on your young mind.

I don't know what to do with people like her.

Blame her......hate her.....feel sorry for her......just don't know.

JMO......................

swedie said:

And twisting the truth so it fits their client. Oh but lawyers do lie. If the evidence isn't there to back it up, why can't they lie? Looks at the CA case for example. Was there any evidence that Hailey drowned in the pool? Was there any evidence GA and LA molested CA? Nope there wasn't any evidence of either. JB lied, bold out lied to raise a reasonable doubt with the jurors and that's how Derstine will try and cover MR's azz. Lies, lies and more lies IMHO. BUT also in MHO, Derstine just isn't cutting it so far. I typed out a list of all the witnesses he has cross examinations thus far, and I do not see one single thing where he has raised a reasonable doubt with me. Actually most of his questions seem rather just out there in no mans land, kwim. I can hardly wait to hear how Derstine's cross comes into play if at all. Then again, that's JMHO.

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You are right........disjointed statements or questions from the defense just aren't going to do the intended job.

The defense will have to link them all together to form a credible alternative theory.

Well...........they actually don't have to. They don't have to do anything.

But, if that were the plan.............I doubt Derstine would have introduced it to the jury...........just to leave it hanging.

JMO...........

Gotta check out..........night all.........stay safe.

Ardy

Ardy said:

I would add to my own post above..........

Think about TLM...........

She has manipulated counselors, probation officers, social workers, he mother, everyone around her for half of her life.

She manipulated LE and the Crown with her false statement.

She manipulated the family of VS with her statements at her sentencing.

Think about what her own lawyer said...................

They discussed the crime together for months. They wept together. TLM poured out her heart........................

And when her lawyer wasn't there.......she said she had no regrets and would gladly do it again.

TLM is a person who can never be rehabilitated. She was already in her mind set long before she met MR.

Her assertion that MR had this power over her and she could do nothing about it............is laughable.

The evidence is that she was the one who did the controlling in her life, not the one being controlled.

If controlling TLM was that easy, she wouldn't have spent half her life in jail.

Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.

JMO................

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IMHO MR and TLM are both master manipulators and evil with no regard for anyone but themselves and their evil sick ways. TLM is no more to blame then MR. They are both disgusting and I pray they have are totally miserable and are haunted everyday by what they did to Tori and her loved ones. I pray they spend the rest of their pathetic lives locked up and are tormented beyond belief. I don't want them to get the DP, as I would be very happy knowing where they are and cannot enjoy the freedoms life has to offer. The DP would be too easy an out for them. They need to suffer just as Tori's loved one have to. I cringe at the thought of the money that is being wasted on these two sadists but if that's the way it has to be, so be it. Just wish they could be put in with the general population to get a taste of what Tori was put through by their evil doings. No evil deed goes unpunished...I believe in Karma. JMHO.

taking TLM out of the equation....what does crown have.

a. TS in a car with 28 year old stranger MTR (male); when TS was supposed to have gone home. Crown knows it was him from the videos of him in the area, and the DNA found in his car.
b. video of MTR skulking around the school that day
c. video showing MTR out of town; with Tori, TS DNA was found in car.
d. MTR aquiring a hammer and garbage bags, vid of atm stop,HD
e. cell phone placing him in Mt Forest the day she went missing
f. drugs picked up just prior to the murder by MTR; gotta have those drugs
g. the DNA evidence, semen, TS blood
h. the disappearing evidence and rediculous mods to his car ie sanding, whitewash, no car seat
i. the lies to LE on audio tape
j. the bizarre behavior with women and lie like a rug behavior
k. he lived away from parent(s) when young
l. the multiple last names in immediate family; divorce and fights with DR
m. the bizarre statement by his defense about cleaning up the crime scene
n. the trail of money; oodles of money for an unemployed drifting, lives with mamma 28 year old
o. multiple aliases and job/education exaggerations/lies
p. MTR was on the periphery of this case ie gf Amanda, and telling people he was looking for TS. In these type cases LE looks for this type of insertion into the case by perpetrators.
q. druggie lifestyle, many illegal behaviors
r. callous disregard for feelings of others ie lying to all those women, letting TS family stew about where she was, leaving a child in a garbage bag under a pile of rocks with no pants on, sponging off his mother when she should be enjoying her own life, all while living the life of riley on the tax payers money and illegal monies. His own defense suggests MTR cleaned up scene and moved body.
s. the body of a dead, raped, kidnapped 8 year old girl who had striking beautiful blonde hair and blue eyes and loved the color purple.

JMO

Snoofer, let me add behavior for weeks after the crime showing no horror, no remorse and still a fondness for TLM after she supposedly brutally killed VS.

Ardy said:

TLM was leading VS down the sidewalk, and from the video of them leaving the parking lot, we see MR's car drive up to the sidewalk and leave. Therefore his car was waiting within the parking lot.

TLM would have to lead VS into the parking lot and towards MR's car.

I believe an already hesitant (as it appeared in the video) little girl, would see the car door open and know it had nothing to do with looking at a dog.

If TLM's testimony is true.......I believe she would have had to drag a kicking and screaming VS into the car.

TLM didn't testify to that. She testified that she pushed VS into the car, which means VS had to be standing right beside the open back door.

More likely to me, TLM told VS a story about looking after her for awhile, or taking her home to her mom's house.

Then I ask myself..............why would TLM lie about this detail?

The answer that I come up with is that it didn't fit her original accusation that MR abducted and killed VS.

JMO.............

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Which IMO VS knew TLM.. Also why was TLM able to shove VS into the back seat and then (correct me if i am wrong) TLM ran/walked around to sit in the front passenger seat. VS would have tried to get out of the car at that point if she didn't know them. At least you would think so anyways. JMO

Ardy said:

The impression I got from TLM's testimony was that some of it sounded rehearsed and beyond the usual conversational language skills of an uneducated drug addict.

Her testimony that she didn't understand how she could be involved in such a "heinous" crime........for example.

From whom did she borrow that phrase?

Her testimony sounded contrived when she says she doesn't know why she didn't do anything to save VS........she suffered flashbacks.

From which counsellor or psychology doctor did she borrow that concept?

Years of interation with LE, social workers, probation officers, doctors.......have all had an effect on TLM.

She knows exactly what they want to hear........and she gives it to them.

She is street smart, canny, and a survivor.........but she also possesses the fatal flaw of many criminal minds.

She thinks she is smarter than everyone else.

She has made mistakes. It is up the defense to point them out to the jury.

As always JMO.......................

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Were you there to hear her testimony or just getting the thought it sounded contrived from the news articles?

I was there to hear her testimony and IMO it did not sound contrived and/or scripted. Not saying I believe everything she has said by any means, but listening to her tell the story of what happened that day together with how the evidence has corroborated her testimony if does add truth to it.

JMO

Ardy said:

People with large families often find that one child gives them a lot more trouble than the other ones did.........same parents, same rules, different results.

I read about a survey conducted by Harvard University, where they interviewed their top students about their backgrounds and their parents.

All of them had one thing in common.

Their parents set the ground rules early, and then let them live their own lives. They made their own decisions and paid the consequences for them.

In other scenarios, where parents set the ground rules, but the kids get into loads of trouble..........we blame the parents.

When my son was entering high school, he started hanging around with this one boy. Soon a couple of "concerned parents" told us that we should watch out because this boy was seen skateboarding at night and was up to no good.

We were concerned of course, but the boys only hung out for a short time.

A few years later I learned the "bad boy" had been offered the choice of a full academic or athletic scholarship from different Universities, while the "good boys" were dropping out of high school and getting into trouble with the law.

I also read a study that was taken over the course of many years.

They found that early childhood education was beneficial until the age of 8, at which time all the kids were basically found to be at the same academic level.

I think our views on parenting and how kids develop are mostly the product of misinformation and urban legends.

In my opinion, something extremely awful happened to TLM around the same age as VS. She refers to flashbacks of herself, when talking about the sexual assault............and it almost seems as if she is describing a scene from her own past.

Who knows where she was placed back then. Who knows what someone did to a vulnerable child that had been abandoned and left to them.

She is the product of her environment, of that I have no doubt.

But it was I think, an extreme environment that contained not only an absence of love............but some terribly traumatic events were heaped on your young mind.

I don't know what to do with people like her.

Blame her......hate her.....feel sorry for her......just don't know.

JMO......................

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Maybe possible but i highly doubt it as MR knew the area. But do you think TLM was ever at this location before with someone who sexually assaulted her when she was younger?

snoofer said:

Except by that theory (red) then we would have no crime, no robberies, other kidnappings, etc. Criminals are tracked all the time by video at stores etc. Even in London, England where CCTV cameras scope every street the entire city, police have tracked robbers, terrorists, murders leaving their house in the morning, followed them to the scene of the crime and then back home again, step by step. Even thought anyone living in London, England knows of the CCTV cameras, crime still occurs. Criminals while going about their criminal day forget about the cameras, like background noise. JMO

Just like the average person goes about their day; not thinking about the fact that they could be on camera as it is such a part of life; so goes the day of a criminal. MTR was doing so much criminal activity and ignoring the fact that if investigated by LE he is likely on camera somewhere doing this criminal activity as well and didn't think anything of that.

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You're right, they don't have any regard for the CCTV, I have seen people smash in a window of a store right in front o the cameras. And let's not forgot the riots, that did not deter anyone.

maxfactor said:

Pretty sad really, then if you hop on over to Tennyson there is a police car in the driveway at MR's moms. I wonder if it was just a coincidence that the streets were photographed for Streetview at that time.

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Same with Wilson street, and then TM's house has a bunch of media around it.

Ardy said:

TLM was leading VS down the sidewalk, and from the video of them leaving the parking lot, we see MR's car drive up to the sidewalk and leave. Therefore his car was waiting within the parking lot.

TLM would have to lead VS into the parking lot and towards MR's car.

I believe an already hesitant (as it appeared in the video) little girl, would see the car door open and know it had nothing to do with looking at a dog.

If TLM's testimony is true.......I believe she would have had to drag a kicking and screaming VS into the car.

TLM didn't testify to that. She testified that she pushed VS into the car, which means VS had to be standing right beside the open back door.

More likely to me, TLM told VS a story about looking after her for awhile, or taking her home to her mom's house.

Then I ask myself..............why would TLM lie about this detail?

The answer that I come up with is that it didn't fit her original accusation that MR abducted and killed VS.

JMO.............

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You never know how someone will act when put in that situation . I imagine she was stunned and confused. Some people freeze up when faced with danger. It is a possibility. She was an 8 year old child. JMO

I have a question.

Is it possible there there are many publication bans that the crown was unable to ask certain questions to help his case?

I feel that after this trial is over something is going to come out. Maybe it will have to do with MTR, TLM or other people.

I just have this sense that there is a reason why they havent dove into certain areas that are crucial in proving MTR's Guilt. JMO