Are the Ramseys involved or not?

Are the Ramseys involved or not?

  • The Ramseys are somehow involved in the crime and/or cover-up

    Votes: 883 75.3%
  • The Ramseys are not involved at all in the crime or cover-up

    Votes: 291 24.8%

  • Total voters
    1,173
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Hi Sophie. Ya HMMMM, thanks for that interesting tidbit re Pound notes and your personal experience.
Everything but the kitchen sink in that rn.



Well Sophie, peut etre, it's just that I've rented every movie ever made and then slept through half of them.

just google up movies immediate execution and ..... the theme appears consistently thru time in cinema.

http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=movies+immediate+execution+&btnG=Search&meta=

and also as you've noted in 'current affairs'.



You're too modest: in the three weeks I've been on here I've seen you talking about everything from linguistics to feel-good movies!

Regarding the Pound symbol, I know it's just one of the little oddities of this case but I do think that these are the features which make this case so endlessly fascinating.

BTW, have you read the Diane Downs story?
 
I believe it goes something like this:

If the RN holds mostly true, then more than one member of a foreign faction group participated in a child murder while in Colorado. Suspects could be extradited to Colorado to face capital murder charges, even though they aren't US citizens.

They could be extradited only if their country has an extradition treaty with the US. Many countries don't. In that case, even if you knew who did it, you'd have to make a deal with their government or go in and 'kidnap' them and bring them to the U.S.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition#Extradition_and_abduction).


If there is a 'foreigner' involved, I would expect it to be a lone foreigner who thought it comical to add the RN etc as an embellishment. You may want to look at Russians and Bulgarians given their relish is using plutonimum and ricin when a clout over the head would suffice and probably be attributed to a random act of violence!
 
Remember how the clippers used to clip JB's fingernails were contaminated? Meaning, that correct protocol wasn't used...by using a different clipper for each nail....but, rather the same clipper was used. Well...if they were so sloppy as to not use the correct procedures concerning the nails...how do we know that the touch DNA didn't come from one of the investigators when they handled the evidence? There is NO telling HOW many people handled that evidence. All it would have taken, is ONE person..without gloves...and there ya go...the mysterious touch DNA. IMO...if there HAD of been an intruder...since there was NO mystery fingerprints on the pineapple bowl, or the sharpie pen, or the writing pad...etc. he would have had to have been wearing gloves. So, why would he have taken them off at ANY point?
 
Remember how the clippers used to clip JB's fingernails were contaminated? Meaning, that correct protocol wasn't used...by using a different clipper for each nail....but, rather the same clipper was used. Well...if they were so sloppy as to not use the correct procedures concerning the nails...how do we know that the touch DNA didn't come from one of the investigators when they handled the evidence? There is NO telling HOW many people handled that evidence. All it would have taken, is ONE person..without gloves...and there ya go...the mysterious touch DNA. IMO...if there HAD of been an intruder...since there was NO mystery fingerprints on the pineapple bowl, or the sharpie pen, or the writing pad...etc. he would have had to have been wearing gloves. So, why would he have taken them off at ANY point?


Supposedly they ruled out cross-contamination by anyone involved with the autopsy- BUT let's face it- they were sloppy, so I wouldn't put my faith in their ability to prevent that contamination.
Remember the creepy guy who was arrested for stealing/copying the morgue log book? I think he was in charge of delivering the bodies to the morgue. Anyone think to see if the prints were his? Maybe wanting to have a look? Sick, yes. But there are a lot of sick people in the world.
 
I think of myself as a reasonable person. I'm still trying to figure out what an "authority figure or commander from a small foreign faction who believes in immediate executions" was doing in Boulder, Colorado that night. I mean, on the terror scale, the killing of one small child doesn't equate to bombing the World Trade Center.

Furthermore, I venture to say that the $118k that this hardened criminal was hoping to make from this crime of terror and bedlam would have not have furthered their objectives too much unless they planned to stop off in Vegas afterwards. JMO.

Even though I'm SFF all the way, I agree with your post. There was no terror and bedlam, as foreign factions go. JR wasn't really a huge 'fat cat' anyway, and 118K seems almost an insulting amount.

I've never thought money was a motivator, because SFF had to be very well financed to bother with this sort of thing. IOW if SFF, then their budget probably ran over 118K anyway.
 
Even though I'm SFF all the way, I agree with your post. There was no terror and bedlam, as foreign factions go. JR wasn't really a huge 'fat cat' anyway, and 118K seems almost an insulting amount.

I've never thought money was a motivator, because SFF had to be very well financed to bother with this sort of thing. IOW if SFF, then their budget probably ran over 118K anyway.

If money was not the motivate, then why would a SFF have even bothered? If the SFF budget would have been more than the requested amount in the RN, then what was the purpose? Why would a SFF even target JR's daughter? There are many other people in the USA worth alot more than JR and much more well known, so why JR? How would they have even known JR or that he had a young daughter? How would kidnapping JBR serve this SFF? Most importantly, why has this SFF not struck again? Why no more kidnappings or murders? Did they disband? What did this SFF gain by the kidnapping/murder of JBR? No group to date has come forth admitting to the crime. Don't terrorist groups admit to crimes such as this to create terror and insure that their demands are met? Lastly, if this SFF was so financed and organized that they came into the US specifically to kidnap JR's daughter, then why was she not kidnapped? Why was JBR not held for ransom? Why was she fed pineapple before her murder? Why did this SFF remain in the home for such a long time? Why not just in and out? I'm sorry, but try as I may, I'm just not buying the SFF or the RN. Doesn't make any sense to me and never will. Too Hollywood to be true. Strictly fiction, written by someone pretending to be someone that they knew nothing about, but thought they did.
 
Even though I'm SFF all the way, I agree with your post. There was no terror and bedlam, as foreign factions go. JR wasn't really a huge 'fat cat' anyway, and 118K seems almost an insulting amount.

I've never thought money was a motivator, because SFF had to be very well financed to bother with this sort of thing. IOW if SFF, then their budget probably ran over 118K anyway.
C'mon, Holdon, not even the Ramseys believed that the SFF existed. Patsy for example theorized about "the" killer who might have confided in one other person. - this train of thought goes completely against any SFF group setting.
The same goes for Lou Smit; he too always spoke of one lone sexual predator.

The note was a fake, Holdon. From whichever angle one looks at it, this is what stands out.
The meager 118k is a joke of a sum, the "we respect your business" babble borders on the comical, the "scanned for electronic devices" is blatant nonsense, etc. etc.
 
That one got me. I don't even know what that means.

"Not Without My Daughter" is a movie about a mother whose husband dumps her, kidnaps their daughter and takes her back to Islamist Iran, which does not recognize American law, so she has to take drastic measures to get the girl back. It's a real phenomenon, HOTYH; Americans marry foreign spouses, have children, the marriage goes sour, the foreign spouse grabs the kid(s) and goes back to their home country where there's no treaties, so the American parent has to have special forces units grab the kid(s) back in covert operations.

I thought EVERYONE knew "Not Without My Daughter!"

Does this mean you're not able to view IDI from a 'what if' perspective?

I didn't say that, HOTYH. I didn't say such. What it means is I'm trying to process this the way I know how. If you find me ignorant, please enlighten me.

I believe I can view RDI from a what if:

You'll have to forgive me if I have my doubts about that.

I suppose there would be murder with special circumstances, conspiracy to murder, sexual assault, accessory to murder, aggravated assault maybe.

How do you figure all that?

Whats the big deal?

You're gonna have to explain that one, HOTYH. Because it sounds like you're saying a child's death is no big deal!

What if SFF came to the US with the intention to kidnap and instead killed JBR, while making bizarre statements? Does it modify the crimes with statements like 'not the country that it serves' and 'not the only fat cat so don't think that killing will be difficult'.

Maybe that is outside your area.

It is. And I'm not alone! Not by a DAMN sight!

I guess your expertise lies in RDI-ese (as opposed to JBR-ese).

Boy, you've got nerve.

Tell you what, HOTYH; I could very easily get angry about a crack like that. But in the interest of fairness, I'm going to give you a chance to explain just what "RDI-ese" and JBR-ese" are, and what the difference is between them. I'm feeling generous today.
 
Does that mean JBR's murder has been 'partially' solved?? We don't know who did it, but we know the RN author made all that stuff up?

... ... Yep.

By what forensic techniques did the investigators arrive at this conclusion?

I think Tadpole answered that one quite well.

I'll call it circumventive investigation. Thats where you go around what is most obvious for no valid reason.

Wrong on both counts. But call it what you like.
 
If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus, then you're handicapped when it comes discussing the case.

There has been no investigative finding that the RN is bogus. There is no proof. It is not a case fact. Nevertheless, it is consistenly referred to here as if it was a given.

Remember that we don't know who killed JBR. That person could be foreign. There has been no investigative finding that the killer is domestic at all. Why keep trumping it up as if there was?

Tell me, any RDI, who do you think is the top expert on what happened to JBR?
 
If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus - Hotyh ....

Hmmm, well the note exists ... so it was of purpose.

But if you ignore the note, eliminate it from consideration, ie if it is interpreted to be nonsensical / redundant.... if the sole focus was the physical crimes perpetrated against JBR .... then the 'intimate' nature of crime remains paramount.


hmmm .....

but the note did provide that extra time .... for extortion ..... at its minimum.

Inside Job:There wasn't a great window of opportunity for theft or extortion, pre Ramsey departure/flight. Just the time they were at the party (for a robery to be perpetrated), and that night ..... before the Ramsey early morn flight. Half a day? from the time they left for the White's party.



As far as socialistic terminology, vs pop culture references within the rn .... heck Star Trek: Next Gen, is chocked full of those themes.
Watched the BORG-Picard/ Locutus of Borg Episode this week.





also ...I've been wondering about the paper bags, 'the paper bag that held rope in John Andrews bedroom'..... leave a paper bag ... demand for a paper bag, Did IDI want the bag back. What kind of volume would $118k occupy, in a brown paper bag?


I think the last time I had a (non descript) paper bag in the house was in the eighties.
 
If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus - Hotyh ....

Hmmm, well the note exists ... so it was of purpose.

But if you ignore the note, eliminate it from consideration, ie if it is interpreted to be nonsensical / redundant.... if the sole focus was the physical crimes perpetrated against JBR .... then the 'intimate' nature of crime remains paramount.


hmmm .....

but the note did provide that extra time .... for extortion ..... at its minimum.

Inside Job:There wasn't a great window of opportunity for theft or extortion, pre Ramsey departure/flight. Just the time they were at the party (for a robery to be perpetrated), and that night ..... before the Ramsey early morn flight. Half a day? from the time they left for the White's party.



As far as socialistic terminology, vs pop culture references within the rn .... heck Star Trek: Next Gen, is chocked full of those themes.
Watched the BORG-Picard/ Locutus of Borg Episode this week.





also ...I've been wondering about the paper bags, 'the paper bag that held rope in John Andrews bedroom'..... leave a paper bag ... demand for a paper bag, Did IDI want the bag back. What kind of volume would $118k occupy, in a brown paper bag?


I think the last time I had a (non descript) paper bag in the house was in the eighties.

I think we went over that years ago. If new bills, then it would be 8-9 inches? Hardly needing 'an adequate size attache'.

Why I think it wasn't an inside job? Not enough money was requested. That amount would probably be within just one credit line.

Agreeing with the 'intimate' motivation. Obviously nobody sexually assaults and murders a small child unless they're deeply mentally disturbed.

Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.

I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.

RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime, yet there are no arrests. Its considered a 'cold case'.
 
If the only way you can look at the RN is from the standpoint that it is bogus, then you're handicapped when it comes discussing the case.

Speaking for myself, it's not the ONLY way. Just the primary one. Despite the common misperception, I do my best to keep an open mind.

There has been no investigative finding that the RN is bogus.

None? Are you sure? Then what the he** were they doing down at Quantico all that time? Catching oysters?

There is no proof. It is not a case fact. Nevertheless, it is consistenly referred to here as if it was a given.

You're point is made.

Remember that we don't know who killed JBR.

Granted.

That person could be foreign. There has been no investigative finding that the killer is domestic at all. Why keep trumping it up as if there was?

Why? How much time do you have?

Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.

Make no mistake, HOTYH: there's a LOT we're not sure of. Speaking for myself, I have a hard time deciding on what brought the whole thing about, just to give one example.

I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.

That's fine.

RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime,

We TRY our best. Key word being "Try."

yet there are no arrests.

Yeah, and I could go on at length as to why!

Its considered a 'cold case'.

"Cold?" It's not cold, HOTYH; it's radioactive. And like radiation, it contaminates everything and everyone who comes into contact with it. Nobody wants anything to do with it, which, in MY OPINION, is why it went nowhere to start with.

Tell me, any RDI, who do you think is the top expert on what happened to JBR?

I'll go first. I'll be brutally honest with you, HOTYH, that's a tough question. Very tough, in fact. But again, speaking purely for myself, I'd have to name Michael Kane.

Strictly out of curiosity, why do you ask?
 
I think we went over that years ago. If new bills, then it would be 8-9 inches? Hardly needing 'an adequate size attache'.

Why I think it wasn't an inside job? Not enough money was requested. That amount would probably be within just one credit line.

Agreeing with the 'intimate' motivation. Obviously nobody sexually assaults and murders a small child unless they're deeply mentally disturbed.

Unlike RDI, there's a lot I don't know.

I don't know that the original motive wasn't to kidnap JBR for money. I don't know if SBTC stands for something. I don't know if the SFF does not exist. I don't know if the SFF or the RN author are people we would not recognize. I don't know what happened to JBR, besides what is evident by her injuries. I don't know the circumstances for the pineapple, if any.

RDI has answers to all these questions, practically solving the whole crime, yet there are no arrests. Its considered a 'cold case'.

What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

And you are forgetting that Patsy was NOT 100 percent excluded as being the author of the RN, she scored a 4.5 out of 5, with her own hired experts. 5 being totally cleared...100 percent did not write the RN.
 
What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

I know you guys have discussed this before so I hope I'm not being tedious but what sort of idiot would use the device of kidnapping - which depends for its efficacy on people's love for the victim - then not even test that love by asking for a significant sum of money from a known 'fat cat.' SFF would have to mean Stupid Foreign Faction, too. As you say, though, their intuition about John's bonus is extraordinary so we are looking for a (p)Sychic Foreign Faction too.
 
What do you make of the fact that the amount of the "ransom" was the exact amount of John's bonus for that year? How did the SFF know about THAT?

I know you guys have discussed this before so I hope I'm not being tedious but what sort of idiot would use the device of kidnapping - which depends for its efficacy on people's love for the victim - then not even test that love by asking for a significant sum of money from a known 'fat cat.' SFF would have to mean Stupid Foreign Faction, too. As you say, though, their intuition about John's bonus is extraordinary so we are looking for a (p)Sychic Foreign Faction too.

LOL

Pretty soon it could mean Seniors' Foreign Faction
 
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