2011.06.25 Sidebar Thread (Trial Day Twenty-eight)

Ssejors said:

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/28344851/slideshow.html

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Who takes a picture of an unrecognizeable child from behind - opening a nondescript door anyway? No other people in the picture, no toys, no animals. No real reason to be taking this picture.

The one compliment I'll give ICA and Cindy - they've taken some really great pictures of that little cherub. That they've proudly displayed (sold).

This is the kind of picture that, if she had turned away just as one was taking it, would end up deleted off the camera.

Smells funny.

Wise Old Owl said:

those tiles look just like mine and mine are 16" sq. So it would be approx 2.5 of those tiles stacked.

For me its not so much the height of the handle - its the SHOES!

Those sneakers in the glass door pic are bigger and more bulky (which they get as a child moves up in sizes). 2 - 3 yr old's sneakers don't look that big and bulky - IDK - for me its the shoes in the pic more than anything else.

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Yep. And the right foot in particular looks "off" to me- the way it's up on the toe. Not the way I would hold my foot if I needed all my strength to slide a door. IDK.

heartfortruth said:

So,how on earth does a jury reach a decision??? Especially in a convoluted case like this one! I wish them insight and fortitude (among other things) IF they EVER get to deliberate........this gets crazier everyday!:crazy:

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BBM - FWIW - On several of the juries I have served on, a preliminary poll was taken in the very beginning of deliberations as to whether each juror felt the defendant is guilty or not guilty to try to establish a baseline as to where the majority of the jurors stood. Usually the preliminary vote was done blindly (i.e. by writing your vote on a piece of paper unanimously). The foreperson would tally the results and that's when deliberations began. There was only one case where every juror voted the same (guilty) - which was easy to go from there. Even in that case, all evidence presented during the trial was re-reviewed just to make sure that everyone truly felt the defendant was guilty and that nothing was missed.

The majority of times; however, there was an "initial" split - it tended to be more like an 85%-90% vote one way and the remainder either "undecided" or the opposite of the majority. (Of note: The majority of the times it was determined that the undecided or opposing jurors were split because they had simply misinterpreted evidence that was presented or missed a critical piece of the evidence/testimony, or didn't understand what was said, etc.)

Once the preliminary vote was determined, the foreperson would start by reviewing each piece of evidence presented and promote a discussion as to what jurors thought about it and ask jurors to pose any questions for group discusison. All evidence was reviewed (sometimes so much so that you got sick of hearing it again) and sometimes questions were submitted to the baliff if jurors needed more information. After reviewing all evidence and hearing each jurors thoughts/opinions, another vote was taken blindly. A lot of times, after the foreperson facilitated review of the evidence and group discussion, some jurors would change their vote voluntarily (unanimously).

There was always one person (or two) who held out longer than the majority - but a lot of times it was felt that the juror was holding out for no real reason other than to be temporarily ornery. LOL I relate it to the posters on here who sometimes try to play devils advocate to stir people to think outside the box and are not so quick to agree with the majority even though they may secretly agree. Although it did cause blood pressures to rise and some jurors to become "passionate" - everyone was entitled to their opinion and the evidence in question was represented, rediscussed as many times as necessary to try to prevent a hung jury. There were two occasions when it was felt that we would have a hung jury, but both times it always worked itself out after the juror who was holding out stated his/her reasons for feeling the way he/she did and others would merely play devils advocate back to that juror with the juror ultimately changing his/her vote. In my experience, no juror was ever belittled or bullied into changing their vote!

Deliberations went on for as long as it took to try to reach a fair and true verdict, whether guilty, not-guilty, or unable to reach a decision.

It is a very thorough process, very time consuming, very passionate, with clear leaders, clear followers, clear stubborn folks, and even those with their own agenda. In the end, however, I truly believe that the verdicts were done thorougly and "fairly" with every sincere regard to the "innocent until proven guilty" right of the defendant. JMOO

By the way, the shortest deliberations I was involved in was 3 1/2 hours (all voted guilty initially and upon re-review of evidence), and the longest was 6 days for a murder case.

And even though in each case jurors were tired and wanted to go home as soon as possible, it was my experience that all jurors took the job VERY seriously and stuck to their belief that they held someone's life in their hands and took the time to methodically go through piece by piece of evidence/testimony - no matter how long it took - until a fair decision was reached!

Just got a chance to look a this snip from this morning.




Was this the picture of interest? I missed the catalyst for this theory of a doctored photo.

faefrost said:

No! That exculpatory clause only applies to evidence ragarding the defendant or that possibly implicates someone else. Evidence unrelated to the defendant that eliminates others is stuff that the DT has to investigate or subpoena themselves unless the state plans on using it at trial.

So if the state had a chain of RK's phone records that put him on Hopespring Drive June 15 and they could not explain that, then yeah they should be included. But if the records show he was across town except at those points where the corraborating record clearly shows his movements. Than no they would have no reason or business publishing Mr. Kronk's phone records. If the defense wishes to go fishing in them they must convince a judge. Which they attempted to do and were granted a much narrower scope for.

As normal LKB is playing word games to make something appear as other than it actually is.

Oh and as a reminder. LKB is NOT a Florida attorney.

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Well said!

Additionally, there was a motion for Kronk's records which Judge Strickland heard, IIRC...Kronk's attorney was present and Judge Strickland granted a specific date range of cell records - so it can't be Kronk's records, IMO.

I don't think it has anything to do with Dr. Rodriguez, because as I understood the end of trial yesterday, HHJP confirmed a motion to dismiss and hearing would have to occur before a decision could be made.

Leaves me to think of witness or evidence tampering...by the DT OR CM wanting to be removed from case; although I'm not sure how or if CM's departure would affect trial.

This is true. But, I think most of us are just looking for something to help pass the time. And, why not talk about this? We've done talked about everything else. :floorlaugh::floorlaugh: JMO

heartfortruth said:

The Picture.........I'm kind of thinking we are getting all carried away with this picture like we did about the "book" at the place where Caylee was found. That "book" was scrutinized every way to Sunday and we all "saw" things that turned out to be not there as it turned out to be a sign.
Just a thought........

but yet another....pure craziness, caused by an overdose of this case but could that picture be real but not Caylee because , in the midst of the A's agony over the loss of Caylee , when Cindy was babysitting (I always thought that was a bit strange) that she dressed the child in Caylee's clothes? You know , like she kept her room just like it was ,etc. I have heard of grieving parents / grandparents doing stranger things.

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snowshuze said:

Papa, this photo has a "staged" feel to it. Whatta coinkydink there's an actual picture of Caylee opening a door to the pool area. Also, look at her feet. I have a slider like that and it's heavy. I believe a child would have to PLANT her feet to have enough PUSH to slide that door open, as upper body strength isn't developed in a child that small.

MOO and stuff.

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I agree with this.

What if the slider was open just enough for fresh air, and Caylee was trying to open it more in that photo, but couldn't?

The photo could be giving a false impression of what was actually going on there.

Okay, have watched a bit more and Mason and Baez come back after only a few seconds, Mason talks with the Judge for only a few seconds then they leave, Mason pats Linda's arm as if to say come on. The prosecutors all sit down and either Sims or Baez tells Casey to get up, Baez is watching Mason walk up the room. Baez has the worst look on his face as if he is caught out bad, licking his lips, lips pursed together the works. Look at 22.17mins, Baez then says something to Mason as they are going out the back together and Baez does not look happy as Mason ushers him through it.

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/interactive.html

Quick Poll!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Picture real, hit Thanks.

faefrost said:

I think it may be a little more complicated.

CM is the only required DP qualified attorney. So at this stage it is next to impossible for him to leave. He also has, prior to this case, as fairly sterling reputation in the local legal community. So he has a good history of ethical behavior and such.

Now he seems to have found himself where his experience and credentials are being used by someone far less competent in order to bring ethical violations and contempt down on him, his client and those around him. So what are his options? Does he have an out or a way to either prevent any such ethical issues and avoid contempt or a way out for him personally that dissociates him from the inexperienced and unethical individual? That could be a rather complex matter of law, could it not?

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Ann Finnell is as death penalty qualified as Mason - and I believe she has won more cases...

pinkfly said:

Speculation: friends and colleagues of CM have let him know how this trial is making him look. They have also told him that if it goes down against ICA people will blame him for things beyond his control (JB) so he asked ICA to ask for his removal. Or he has spilled something that is unethical to the judge and said that he needs to be removed from a team that would perpetrate a fraud on the court. Either one could lead to a mistrial unless HHJBP can figure out a way to keep things alive.

I am not a fan of CM but I do think he has a good reputation and has more ethics than JB

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I recall there were times during hearings when CM didn't seem to have a good grasp of the facts in this case. Almost like he was a figurehead ,lending his name to the case,but not really participating much.
Things have changed with potential contempt charges against JB and more BS this morning. It's not looking good for the DT and maybe the other members are finally pushing back.
I think he's had enough of JB's tricks .ICA is not wort it.
JMO

The main thing I question in that picture is the dexterity of the girl especially the placement of the feet and the weight and force being used. It doesn't seem like caylee's body language. The legs do appear longer and the hair darker also. The shear convience of the photo makes it even more suspicious imo.

Quick Poll!!!!!!!!!!!

Picture fake, hit Thanks.

the picture looks like the middle part of the body is way too long.

something aint right with it.

I think someone is pulling some "hucksterism"

Farfalla40 said:

Greetings All First time posting, but have been lurking for quite a while & following this case from the beginning being that I'm originally from Orlando, but living outside of Baltimore now, so I was intrigued by the "hometown" news, aside from many other aspects of the case that hit close to home, which at some point, I'm sure that I will bring up in future postings...
Anyhow, something about the picture of Caylee (allegedly) reaching up to open the slider door just isn't sitting right with me, so I took a few minutes to sleuth a little bit this morning & try to figure out why it wasn't sitting right? If you look at the evidence pic that the CSI ppl took of Caylee's KNOWN shoes when they went to the house to collect evidence (ie ICA's shoes, clothes, etc) there is not ONE pair of shoes that match the shoes in the new picture, not even close, as all of her shoes appear to be white & for lack of a better term, "girlie". The new pic shows shoes that are more athletic in appearance, like something that an older child would wear? When my girls were Caylee's age (identical twin girls who are 9 years old now), the tennis shoes that were available for their shoe size were fairly similar to the ones pictured in the evidence photos of her KNOWN shoes. Also, I find it odd that in the beginning of the trial, when the CSI experts testified about the photos retrieved from all the cameras & on the hard drives from each computer, they were able to testify to the time/date stamps of those pictures, so why hasn't this been done to the NEW picture that was submitted of her opening the slider?
I have so many thoughts & feelings about this case & the travesty that is occurring regarding this poor little girl's death (murder, IMO), as I said, it hits REALLY close to home, as I lost my son shortly after his 2nd birthday, due to an accident which was caused by someone else's negligence (long story) & I just don't understand HOW this family who supposedly loved this child so much could carry on the way that they have... It's truly sickening & heart wrenching to witness this for me, to say the least :-(
Sorry to rant, I'm glad to be in the company of such wise, intuitive & carrying people who have been brought together to seek justice for this beautiful baby girl....

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Great first post...Welcome to our group Farfalla :welcome:

I am so so so sorry you lost your precious son :rose:
...God Bless You!

He and Caylee are playing together I know...two more angels in heaven...

Caylee seems to have many dresses and matching bandanas.

RR0004 said:

Bingo...couldn't get the picture out of my mind...especially the shoes. All the time that Casey was over at the office...all the pics she brought...it just kept whirling around in my brain...and I haven't been on Val's site in a while...so if we all have that hinky feeling, maybe there is something to it?

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GO look at page 24 of the daily discussion on justice4caylee

http://www.justice4caylee.org/t14882p345-main-blogsat-june-25-2011

Look at the plug on the wall in the photo that wa submitted in court yesterday. It is elongated!!! They stretched out this photo!!!! HOLY CRAP!!!!:worms::tos::gasp:

coloradoteacher said:

Can somebody zoom in to her hand on the handle- I swear it looks like her hand is to the left of the handle- not actually on the handle....

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My 3 yr. old grandson doesn't open the sliding door by the handle.His fingers aren't strong enough so he pushes on the glass with his hand. This is why we always have to make sure the latch is closed.

waltzingmatilda said:

I think you may be correct teh. Yesterday, someone (sorry can't remember who) posted photos of Caylee in basically the same outfit but there was different fabric print and ornamental accents on the two dresses.

wm

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to me they look like different colors

CA did testify in trial about the height and weight of Caylee. I believe it was on her first time on the stand if someone wants to check but I know she did because my mind went to thinking of a yardstick.