DSS summary of services for Zahra

I'd still like to know why DSS didn't pick up on the fact that both AB and ZB were in the country illegally.

In fact neither did LE when AB was charged with the threats on BB and family.

How does this happen? :waitasec:

tlcox said:

I have been giving your thoughts on this serious consideration the past day or so. I do not know if this is practiced in Australia, but here in the US there are a certain small portion of the population that will use child services as a tool, sicking them on their enemies as a form of revenge. This misuse of the system is common with this small part of the population and weighs down already overworked investigators with "nuisence" calls that must be investigated.

IF EB regularly did this as a practice on others and AB was aware, when the CPS contacts started rolling in about his own home . . . Zhara denying abuse, EB denying abuse and then CPS declaring they found no cause and were closing the investigation. I could see where one could convince themself that it was just that.

I still find his lack of involvment in Zahra's daily life a huge failure on his part, especially in teh face of all these contacts with CPS but am willing to allow that he may have thought them revenge calls. What is glaring to me and so upsetting to me is his lack of follow through where Zahra is concerned. After such investigations, even once declared unfounded by CPS, any parent worth their salt would be more alert and watchful for signs that something was off at home. Especially when coupled with his own admission that EB was abusive and manipulative towards himself, a grown man.

That is what upsets me so much about AB. His apparent complete lack of concern of what this might mean. When women are abused we (society) tend to give them the benefit of the doubt in such instances. She was frightened, she couldn't see a way out, but we still hold them accountable in our own minds for failing to protect their children. With men who may be abused, we (society) tend not to make the same allowances or find it as understandable.

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tlcox, I absolutely agree with your feelings here. If a seed was planted in AB's mind (subconsciously), then we would think that deep down he must have had doubts ... even though he saw no evidence. In the case of my friend, mentioned above, although I knew he was with me and other friends the night of the alleged crime, and I knew 100% that he was innocent, I admit it remained on my mind just a tiny bit. That is illogical, but I know it did make me feel a bit awkward. But it didn't stop me remaining friends with him.

Perhaps AB did take notice. If we are to believe AY's assertion that AB was leaving EB, then maybe this is the reason? My feeing is we will need to hear that from AB himself though.

Hickory Born said:

Just re-read this report one more time. It states on July 13, 2010 at 6:18pm Catawba County Social Services made an unannounced visit to the house and spoke with AB, EB, & ZB. This was on a Tuesday and ADAM WAS HOME AT 6:18pm...which leads me to ponder his statement about always working late.

The two other visits to the Hickory Baker house were on July 22, 2010 and Aug. 5,2010 and CCSS state they obtained statements from all perons named. Both dates are on a Thursday, a work day. I wish they would have given the time of the visit.

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Good point!

Trying to look for potential alternative explanations I wonder – parts of AB's working late may have involved working out in the yard splitting wood, etc? If so, this would explain him "being home" from the DSS interview perspective but not "being home" in the sense of relaxing inside the house with his family.

Flakes said:

Good point!

Trying to look for potential alternative explanations I wonder – parts of AB's working late may have involved working out in the yard splitting wood, etc? If so, this would explain him "being home" from the DSS interview perspective but not "being home" in the sense of relaxing inside the house with his family.

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That is a good possibility, BUT...how about meal times, didn't the family ever eat together? If he were working in his own bakyard, I can't understand why he couldnt come in and eat a quick meal with her. Why didn't Zahra go out in the yard just because she wanted to see and be with her father?

Hickory Born said:

That is a good possibility, BUT...how about meal times, didn't the family ever eat together? If he were working in his own bakyard, I can't understand why he couldnt come in and eat a quick meal with her. Why didn't Zahra go out in the yard just because she wanted to see and be with her father?

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Yes, they are good questions. We don't know how many nights he worked late or what locations they were, or if they were in Hickory or out of town. What we do know is he was home on the evening that DSS arrived to interview them. We don't know what time they ate dinner, and we don't really know when he last saw Zahra walking around and healthy (he suggests this was since Sept 24th). We will need to wait until evidence comes out at trial to know these details unless they're released prior (I sure hope so!!!).

Regardless of whether Adam Baker is dumb as a box of rocks or not (and I don't think he is), he had many LEGAL obligations where his daughter was concerned.

1). He had a legal obligation to ensure that his daughter was being properly educated. According to NC law, a child must either be enrolled in school, or parents must apply for homeschool certification. Adam Baker did neither.

2). He had a legal obligation to ensure that his daughter recieved standard/basic medical care. From everything I've seen, Adam Baker didn't meet that legal requirement.

3). He had a legal obligation to ensure that his daughter was not placed in a situation of harm. He didn't meet that legal requirement.

http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Child+endangerment

<snip>

Child Abuse has been defined as an act, or failure to act, on the part of a parent or caretaker that results in the death, serious physical or emotional harm, Sexual Abuse, or exploitation of a child, or which places the child in an imminent risk of serious harm (42 U.S.C.A. § 5106g).

Now, we can argue about Adam Baker's mental capacity until the cows come home, but it doesn't matter one iota in terms of the law. And in my opinion, the case for charging him with child abuse, child neglect, and child endangerment has already been made. If he isn't charged with those things, then I don't know who the heck SHOULD be.

JMO

Another thing I found interesting about the DSS reports is the timing of the move to the house in Hickory. I think we've always gone on the assumption that they moved there sometime in August but it appears that they moved there at the beginning of July. So that was 3 months that Zahra was at the house in Hickory without any of the neighbors having any idea there was a child living there.

EB posted on her FB on July 5th that she had spent a weekend at the beach with her husband and family. I wonder who all was there that weekend? And who made the call to DSS on the 12th? Was it someone who was at the beach with them that weekend? And why didn't that person know they had moved since they made the call to the Caldwell County DSS?

Just to clarify, between Jan. 29, 2010 and Aug. 5, 2010 , there were 6 reports of child abuse/neglect investigated.

http://www.wsoctv.com/news/25355983/detail.html

Flakes said:

Yes, they are good questions. We don't know how many nights he worked late or what locations they were, or if they were in Hickory or out of town. What we do know is he was home on the evening that DSS arrived to interview them. We don't know what time they ate dinner, and we don't really know when he last saw Zahra walking around and healthy (he suggests this was since Sept 24th). We will need to wait until evidence comes out at trial to know these details unless they're released prior (I sure hope so!!!).

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Where have we seen any proof whatsoever that he even worked long hours?

Flakes said:

Yes, they are good questions. We don't know how many nights he worked late or what locations they were, or if they were in Hickory or out of town. What we do know is he was home on the evening that DSS arrived to interview them. We don't know what time they ate dinner, and we don't really know when he last saw Zahra walking around and healthy (he suggests this was since Sept 24th). We will need to wait until evidence comes out at trial to know these details unless they're released prior (I sure hope so!!!).

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In all fairness, he doesn't "suggest" that he saw Zahra up and walking around prior to Sept. 24, he clearly states that he "100 %, genuinely, saw Zahra out of bed" on Thursday, Sept.7 (which he changed from Tues. Sept. 5).

The only reason I'm bothering to belabor this point is because it is EXTREMELY problematic for AB, given that this was a mere 2 days prior to Zahra being reported missing. If he is saying that he last saw Zahra out of bed on Sept. 7, and she was reported missing on the afternoon of Sept.9 , that leaves only Sept. 8 as a possible day for him to have seen the "lump" in the bed. He is therefore asking us to believe that sometime between the evening of Sept. 7 and the afternoon of Sept.9, EB killed and dismembered Zahra, used 2 vehicles to dispose of body parts, returned and cleaned up the mess, painted 2 rooms in the house, wrote a ransom note, poured gasoline in his work vehicle and started a mulch fire, all without him ever noticing a thing amiss.

Anyone here think that humanly possible? Because I sure in the hell don't.

vjlaw said:

Where have we seen any proof whatsoever that he even worked long hours?

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He has repeatedly stated this himself. LE would most definitely have consulted with his employer to confirm such information. We know they also checked his mobile phone's GPS for a period, so would have that to confirm the information they'd gather from his employer, and any co-workers or clients. If there was evidence that he was lying on this issue, then we can be certain this would have sent up red flags during the investigation regarding his reliability with information.

Unless this is discussed in court, or a member of the investigation or his employer or co-workers and clients speaks publicly on this topic, or if someone obtains access to the full case files under the Freedom of Information Act, then we will not have any confirmation of this.

Mountain_Kat said:

In all fairness, he doesn't "suggest" that he saw Zahra up and walking around prior to Sept. 24, he clearly states that he "100 %, genuinely, saw Zahra out of bed" on Thursday, Sept.7 (which he changed from Tues. Sept. 5).

The only reason I'm bothering to belabor this point is because it is EXTREMELY problematic for AB, given that this was a mere 2 days prior to Zahra being reported missing. If he is saying that he last saw Zahra out of bed on Sept. 7, and she was reported missing on the afternoon of Sept.9 , that leaves only Sept. 8 as a possible day for him to have seen the "lump" in the bed. He is therefore asking us to believe that sometime between the evening of Sept. 7 and the afternoon of Sept.9, EB killed and dismembered Zahra, used 2 vehicles to dispose of body parts, returned and cleaned up the mess, painted 2 rooms in the house, wrote a ransom note, poured gasoline in his work vehicle and started a mulch fire, all without him ever noticing a thing amiss.

Anyone here think that humanly possible? Because I sure in the hell don't.

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I'm hoping we'll hear in court an estimate for the age of the paint in Zahra's room (may have existed prior to Bakers) and the renovation of bathroom (walls and flooring). Was the blood/tissue OVER or UNDER the pink paint? If OVER, attempts by EB to clean up may have been hindered by the pink washed paint; what her eyes would see is far from what forensics are able to identify. If UNDER, then this certainly opens up a can of worms for the timeframe. If the paint was only days old, forensics would know this, and I'm certain AB would have been asked about this by LE.

In my mind I keep coming back to the Nilsen case that tlcox and I discussed briefly – that he kept bodies and parts of dismembered bodies in his flat for months, bagged in various hidden locations AND at that time had a boyfriend who never noticed anything was amiss. Perhaps there was an odour and he would say something like "Oh there's a terrible smell I wonder if a possum has died under the floor?" or something similar, to dismiss the topic.

I agree, Mountain_Kat, a huge weight is on AB's claim that he saw Zahra alive and well days prior to her disappearance. I wish we could hear the full explanation, rather than having to wait until court. And I wish he'd give a definite date, since he seems vague about which day. I'm sure LE would have sat down with Adam to discuss his confusion in detail, and I assume LE feels they have a confirmed date. In another post I have questioned how reliable they consider his evidence to be? If "unreliable" this doesn't mean they see him as 'guilty', just that he's not a person with reliable memory. A family member of mine is exactly like that – brilliant brain on complex issues, very poor recollection of trivial matters in short term memory. Of course the "trivial" fails to be trivial when the question is "When did you last see your murdered daughter Zahra?" but I'm fairly certain my family member would be frustrated by an inability to answer LE's question accurately either. I'm not convinced that the case will end concluding that the TOD was "24th September or thereabouts" ... it feels like the vagueness may be deliberate. Especially when we know AB has given evidence on his last sighting.

With regards to the blood found in the vehicles, I want to raise a couple of thoughts: when Lindy Chamberlain was charged with killing her baby Azaria at Uluru in the Northern Territory, Australia ("a dingo stole my baby") there was evidence of blood in the car, and they summised that Azaria's head may have been placed in the console/glove box. This was never confirmed as blood from Azaria, and ended up being a sensational part of the trial. In the end she was acquitted of the crime and freed from jail (after serving years). Of course since that trial forensics has been revolutionised. They have DNA from Zahra, so the forensic team will have confirmed if the blood found in the car is hers. Next, it's possible EB may have gone to one car, then decided to use the other car. Or there may be some other cross-contamination issue. We do not know that 2 vehicles were used in the disposal (LE should confirm this at trial). Again, the frustrating waiting game.

The reasons I propose these optional possibilities is I feel we have to be absolutely certain, without any hesitation that we have the information correct. If our theories do not stand up solidly against optional possibilities –*if there's even a smidge of a shadow of a doubt – then we can't be so sure.

In many States, and in NC, there is a budget that is very small for DSS workers. Workers are often struggling under huge caseloads, and case workers have to go by the law. They cannot remove a child from a home-they need a court order to do so, or they need to get law enforcement involved regarding removing children.
Also, it's a fine line to get a child removed, because unless the child is telling you, the worker, that they are being abused, or they show evidence that there is abuse, it's hard to get it to stick-especially with a child of Zahra's age. If she said she was being beaten, or if she agreed with stories of her being abused, they probably would have taken her and placed her in care. However, if she denied it, and looked pretty ok, no bruises, black eyes, or burns...and the house was in decent order there wouldn't probably have been a removal.
The NC system is really over burdened with cases and those who work for DSS are simply overwhelmed-the money isn't there to spend on putting in the preventative measures to keep children safe.

I say our children are our future...I dont care what other state or government policys have to suffer give DSS or DCS or what ever they call each other more money...kick mr or mrs I dont want to work off welfare and protect our children how hard can it be? I know a person in his 40s who had 1 seisure when he was 8 hes never worked a day in his life...he sits around and plays video games and smokes pot...why does he desrerve the government money when we have children suffering????JMO

This is both an emotional topic and one that is surrounded from the research I have been doing on it in enough red tape I am amazed that they can carry the case loads they do. The burn out rate is extremely high from all the documentation I have read. Stress levels for these individuals must be extremely high not to mention the frustration levels as many probably know when they walk out of a home whether or not there is an issue. No magic answers from what I have been able to see but one thing is for certain, they definately need additional man power. Now I have read where some have been arrested which is making some wonder to themselves whether it is worth it in the long run. Changes simply must be made to the system. What those changes are I dont know.

Patty G said:

IMO, it appears as though DCF followed through on each and every complaint interviewing Elisa, Zahra and Adam. What more can DCF do if after interviewing everyone and it appears as though there is no abuse.

It's not DCF's fault that Zahra died, the blame is within the household of the adults caring for Zahra.

What people need to start doing is call the police FIRST when they see a child is being abused rather then DCF. Let the police come down and interview the family and then let the police get DCF involved.

If people can call the police when a spouse is being abused, or an animal, then they need to start calling the police when they feel a child is being abused.

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I agree !!! If a child is beaten, it's a crime and should be investigated by LE first. I tend to trust LE more than CPS/DCF also. I am sooo anti DCF, yet in this case I haven't heard anything that makes me blame them. If they were getting reports from EB's ex-husband or family members that were angry with her, it's not a stretch to believe that EB was able to convince DCF that they were being vindictive and trying to cause problems. I imagine she threatened Zahra or told her some horror stories about what might happen if she were taken away to live with strangers. My opinion would change if I learned that Zahra had told DCF about the abuse.

westsidefox64 said:

I say our children are our future...I dont care what other state or government policys have to suffer give DSS or DCS or what ever they call each other more money...kick mr or mrs I dont want to work off welfare and protect our children how hard can it be? I know a person in his 40s who had 1 seisure when he was 8 hes never worked a day in his life...he sits around and plays video games and smokes pot...why does he desrerve the government money when we have children suffering????JMO

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Throwing money at it, won't fix it. The federal government provides funding to states for child protection, it's not all on the states.
If a child is being abused, call the cops. If a child needs to be removed LE can make the call. It would prevent a lot of unnecessary removals and allow DCF to work with and for the kids that are really abused.

I've been gone for a while and had to read back on all the posts concerning CPS and Zahra's case. I find it interesting that many believe CPS can just walk into a situation and remove the child because the Investigator "knows/thinks" something is going on or isn't right. I see where some have tried to convey that this isn't the way it works, but still there are many who believe that is the way it should be.
I'm going to play Devil's Advocate here for a minute:
Let's say I'm the CPS reporter. I don't like the way you are raising your child. You are a poor, single female and only providing a minimum of care. Your home is run down and you don't have much in the way of providing for the child. Your friends are smoking pot and I believe you are as well, even though I've never seen you do it in front of the child. You hang around outside all the time with your friends and your child plays in the dirt, chases around with your family dog and doesn't have a prescribed bed or bath time. You have a different boyfriend every week, no job and eventually you end up pregnant by someone else who isn't in the picture. You are on welfare and receiving food stamps. You may be illegal, but as a reporter, I don't know you very well, so I'm not sure. I call CPS to report you for what I perceive as a potential risk to your child....
Can the CPS Investigator remove your child?
NO.
There is no EVIDENCE of abuse or neglect. The JUDGE who decides the FOUNDATION will toss that case out of court in a heartbeat. CPS workers cannot "predict" the future and are not allowed to judge a person based on lifestyle or what you or they may think. Just because it isn't how you raise a child doesn't have anything to do with parental rights. That is the law, folks, Sorry. CPS is not ICE...we cannot interfere with immigration status. CPS is not LE and we cannot arrest someone on drug charges even if they admit they are using...as long as they have another caretaker for the child who is not impaired. We can only work within the parameters of the law. Not within the parameters of your perception of what makes a good parent.

CHICANA said:

Throwing money at it, won't fix it. The federal government provides funding to states for child protection, it's not all on the states.
If a child is being abused, call the cops. If a child needs to be removed LE can make the call. It would prevent a lot of unnecessary removals and allow DCF to work with and for the kids that are really abused.

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Calling LE will get you as far as LE calling CPS. LE does not deal with child abuse...at least not in the State of NC. They are not trained, nor do they make the decision to remove or not to remove a child.