IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 - #20

bonechaos said:

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I and many others have set forth the reasons why we believe it was best for them to leave. What I and others have suggested explains everything; your opinion leaves us without answers. I am assuming that you believe the kids at SW were involved with Lauren's disappearance - apologies if this isn't true - and that would color your opinion.

CR didn't KNOW he was going to be confronted. He likely thought he and LS were just going to walk to her apartment, no questions asked. Have you never tried to get away with something because the risk was so small? Regardless of whether or not the "list" was enforced, he was on it for a reason. No, the "list" wasn't going to be enforced if he was just walking in with Lauren, doing nothing wrong. But he had been in trouble at SW before. The moment he got into an altercation, the risk that he would be in some sort of trouble increased tenfold. Think of open container laws. In a lot of places, the cops will look the other way. But the moment you do something that causes a disturbance, they'll get you on it in an instant.

And why wait around for the cops anyways? No one wants to deal with the cops regardless of who was "at fault." I got into a minor car accident a few weeks ago. I was not at fault, but instead of calling the cops, the other driver and I made an agreement amongst ourselves because we didn't want to go through the trouble. I just can not see why he would stick around and neither can most other people, so I'm going to drop it.

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Well..obviously you theorize that CR left SW for fear of being caught on the premises and face possible trespass, pi, doc charges..etc
I get it.
If I follow correctly then you believe LS ultimately OD'd afterward and was disposed of in a dumpster...please correct as necessary.

I wonder if the group of assailants were in as much a hurry to leave the premises as they had just committed an assault?
Seems to me that they would have more reason to bolt then CR did.
But then maybe they have a lesser fear of arrest then CR, after all they initiated the altercation?
It's amazing to me how the victim could be that fearful of a police encounter while his assailants are seemingly the opposite.

jjenny said:

But we don't know if whoever is responsible had access to all kinds of vehicles. Even LE said early on that LS and some of her "buddies" didn't have vehicles.

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I know this sounds stereotypical, but these kids were wealthy. I went to a big state school and mostly everyone had a vehicle, even those who weren't so well off. But I didn't know one wealthy kid who didn't own a vehicle. I know in places like NY and other urban areas you don't really need a vehicle, but this was Indiana. I know this is mostly my own personal anecdata, but applied to this situation, the likelihood that there wasn't a vehicle available is pretty small, imo.

Edit: Just realized this post was dumb because LE said LS herself didn't have a vehicle. Embarrassing.

always curious said:

<snip>

If they couldn't find a body there, I don't think that they would want the POI's to know that....as that would take any heat off of them...all they would have to do is stay silent and they got away with it. No body, no hard evidence, no crime. Reasonable doubt most definitely rules here. No one wants that. May be a reason to keep it quiet in hopes of eventually breaking someone's silence. I dunno....just trying to think it thru.

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I have wondered about this myself. It seemed like there was such an outcry over the possibility that they hadn't and weren't going to search the landfill though that it really seemed like the public's faith in them was jeopardized - especially after the FB page was scrubbed - and no one wants that. But then it really did seem like the Spierers have confidence in LE, and they requested that no one protest at BPD after Lauren's Ride as had been considered. But again it seems like searching a landfill would be a huge operation, and really hard for observers (the press, eg) to miss.

Tr. said:

Well..obviously you theorize that CR left SW for fear of being caught on the premises and face possible trespass, pi, doc charges..etc
I get it.
If I follow correctly then you believe LS ultimately OD'd afterward and was disposed of in a dumpster...please correct as necessary.

I wonder if the group of assailants were in as much a hurry to leave the premises as they had just committed an assault?
Seems to me that they would have more reason to bolt then CR did.
But then maybe they have a lesser fear of arrest then CR, after all they initiated the altercation?
It's amazing to me how the victim could be that fearful of a police encounter while the his assailants are seemingly the opposite.

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I don't specifically think they left because CR was in fear of getting in trouble. I believe that possibility factored into it. My belief is that they wanted to avoid further drama, under which can be factored many types of specific things, including dealing with cops.

Yes, I believe Lauren OD'd and her body was hidden. How? I have no idea, but a dumpster is certainly a possibility. The person who raises my suspicions the most is JR.

bonechaos said:

I know this sounds stereotypical, but these kids were wealthy. I went to a big state school and mostly everyone had a vehicle, even those who weren't so well off. But I didn't know one wealthy kid who didn't own a vehicle. I know in places like NY and other urban areas you don't really need a vehicle, but this was Indiana. I know this is mostly my own personal anecdata, but applied to this situation, the likelihood that there wasn't a vehicle available is pretty small, imo.

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I don't disagree that one might expect wealthy kids to have vehicles. But going by what LE has stated early on, LS herself didn't have a vehicle and neither did some of her buddies.

At the least LE need to take cadaver dogs to the transfer station that would handle 5 North Townhouses. Where would that be?

jjenny said:

I don't disagree that one might expect wealthy kids to have vehicles. But going by what LE has stated early on, LS herself didn't have a vehicle and neither did some of her buddies.

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Yep - that statement went in one ear and out the other, lol. You're right, I apologize.

Many people have questioned why JR would admit being the last person to see LS if he was involved with her disappearance. Here is why I believe he would. This assumes she was, indeed, with JR.

1. He knew there was a possibility that someone would tell LE that she had gone to his place. LS probably told him she had just come from CR/MB's place when she got there. Therefore, he knew there was a possibility that LS told the boys where she was going before she left - i.e., "Okay, MB, I'm going to pop in at JR's now. See ya later." If MB told LE where she was headed (since CR apparently doesn't remember anything) and JR denied she had ever been there, that would cast even more suspicion on him than if he was upfront about it.

2. He knew LS might have left DNA behind in his apartment. Fibers, whatever - I'm sure he watched CSI and the likes and was afraid that LE might swoop in, find one of Lauren's hairs, and charge him with murder. If he was caught lying about her being there and LE found her DNA in his apartment, he would be in big trouble.

3. He had a guest there, by all accounts. If he lied about LS being there, and the guest said she was there, then he would, once again, be in big trouble.

Getting caught lying is the number one way to be named a suspect. JR definitely had a reason to tell LE that LS was with him, guilty or not.

bonechaos said:

I know this sounds stereotypical, but these kids were wealthy. I went to a big state school and mostly everyone had a vehicle, even those who weren't so well off. But I didn't know one wealthy kid who didn't own a vehicle. I know in places like NY and other urban areas you don't really need a vehicle, but this was Indiana. I know this is mostly my own personal anecdata, but applied to this situation, the likelihood that there wasn't a vehicle available is pretty small, imo.

Edit: Just realized this post was dumb because LE said LS herself didn't have a vehicle. Embarrassing.

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I'm originally from a town in Westchester about 20 minutes away from Lauren's and I and several others I knew from my high school went to a very large midwestern state school. A number of us had cars but didn't bring them to campus at various times because parking was such a gigantic pain. By my junior year, the inconvenience of not being able to get the the laundromat and grocery store outweighed the inconvenience and expense of parking for me, but at least one of my HS friends never did have a car. Most who had them didn't bring them freshman/sophomore year.

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Doh - just realize that you'd edited your comment to reflect LE's comments - sorry

Anyway, if anyone is wondering why kids might not have a car even if they can afford one, parking can be a factor.

bonechaos said:

Many people have questioned why JR would admit being the last person to see LS if he was involved with her disappearance. Here is why I believe he would. This assumes she was, indeed, with JR.

1. He knew there was a possibility that someone would tell LE that she had gone to his place. LS probably told him she had just come from CR/MB's place when she got there. Therefore, he knew there was a possibility that LS told the boys where she was going before she left - i.e., "Okay, MB, I'm going to pop in at JR's now. See ya later." If MB told LE where she was headed (since CR apparently doesn't remember anything) and JR denied she had ever been there, that would cast even more suspicion on him than if he was upfront about it.

2. He knew LS might have left DNA behind in his apartment. Fibers, whatever - I'm sure he watched CSI and the likes and was afraid that LE might swoop in, find one of Lauren's hairs, and charge him with murder. If he was caught lying about her being there and LE found her DNA in his apartment, he would be in big trouble.

3. He had a guest there, by all accounts. If he lied about LS being there, and the guest said she was there, then he would, once against, be in big trouble.

Getting caught lying is the number one way to be named a suspect. JR definitely had a reason to tell LE that LS was with him, guilty or not.

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Have we been made aware of what course of studies these boys were taking? I don't think I even heard.

mamamia54 said:

Have we been made aware of what course of studies these boys were taking? I don't think I even heard.

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Some of them, yes - at least one of the guys - maybe Jesse -- was studying at SPEAS (School of Public and Environmental Affairs), another of the guys was studying management, maybe as an undergrad in the business school (or maybe also at SPEAS). My memory of what they were studying is a bit hazy, but it seemed that all or most were studying rather applied/professional things rather than core liberal arts like math or biology or english lit. If it's important I can find links and post.

always curious said:

Dumpster pickup at 5 North, as seen by the eyes of a poster here who is in B-town(but I don't have the exact post to quote), is Friday morning. So the post that someone else put on the previous page about about LE suspecting that she is in the landfill would make total sense. I just can't figure out from there why they wouldn't check the landfills. Hmmm.

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It's not Friday morning it is Friday evening 5:30 p.m. on the day that Btown observed anyway. I don't think any one of these POI could keep face with LS's body there all day.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6938172&highlight=north+dumpster#post6938172

always curious said:

Is there any way that LE is/has in fact searching the landfill in Terra Haute and we just don't know anything about it? Could they find a way to keep that a secret? (hushing landfill workers or media that might follow them there and such somehow) Any ideas or example of this happening?

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Yes, I've thought this is why they first said it was searched then said it wasn't. Of course most everyone wants to eviscerate them for being so incompetent and bungling the case when in fact it could prove to be a brilliant strategy. That's my hope anyway.

They could also be searching right now, just not publicizing it which would be a media circus of course.

Skigirl said:

Some of them, yes - at least one of the guys - maybe Jesse -- was studying at SPEAS (School of Public and Environmental Affairs), another of the guys was studying management, maybe as an undergrad in the business school (or maybe also at SPEAS). My memory of what they were studying is a bit hazy, but it seemed that all or most were studying rather applied/professional things rather than core liberal arts like math or biology or english lit. If it's important I can find links and post.

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Well, I had just wondered if any of them had any background in anthropology, biology etc.

I may be wrong...but I remember someone posting about the POI's area of studies. I could have misread the post and be wrong, but I thought it said that JW and JR were both in SPEAS. No one ever commented on this...but it stuck in my mind for awhile. They are in different years of college...senior and sophomore...and JR was even studying abroad this past spring semester...so it's completely possible that they never ran into each other and it means nothing. But combined with them both being in the same sorority (when it was active along with it being underground)...and the fact that they both were linked to LS...some red flags went up in my mind.

By all accounts I've read, they didn't know each other. But they seem to have an awful lot in common. Just saying....

Oh, if any one of these POI did not have a vehicle I have no doubt they could get one if they wanted.

Skigirl said:

I'm originally from a town in Westchester about 20 minutes away from Lauren's and I and several others I knew from my high school went to a very large midwestern state school. A number of us had cars but didn't bring them to campus at various times because parking was such a gigantic pain. By my junior year, the inconvenience of not being able to get the the laundromat and grocery store outweighed the inconvenience and expense of parking for me, but at least one of my HS friends never did have a car. Most who had them didn't bring them freshman/sophomore year.

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Doh - just realize that you'd edited your comment to reflect LE's comments - sorry

Anyway, if anyone is wondering why kids might not have a car even if they can afford one, parking can be a factor.

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Well there is ample parking at 5 North, underground parking at SW, and LS had a car as recently as December because she called her dad about car trouble according to his business partner. This is on findLauren site.

always curious said:

I may be wrong...but I remember someone posting about the POI's area of studies. I could have misread the post and be wrong, but I thought it said that JW and JR were both in SPEAS. No one ever commented on this...but it stuck in my mind for awhile. They are in different years of college...senior and sophomore...and JR was even studying abroad this past spring semester...so it's completely possible that they never ran into each other and it means nothing. But combined with them both being in the same sorority (when it was active along with it being underground)...and the fact that they both were linked to LS...some red flags went up in my mind.

By all accounts I've read, they didn't know each other. But they seem to have an awful lot in common. Just saying....

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Yes, that stuck in my mind too but for a different reason. CR is in Kelley/Real Estate and MB is Telecomm. I figure JW and JR were not accepted into Kelley so they took SPEA as a fallback. They both are Mgt. majors as I recall.

always curious said:

I may be wrong...but I remember someone posting about the POI's area of studies. I could have misread the post and be wrong, but I thought it said that JW and JR were both in SPEAS. No one ever commented on this...but it stuck in my mind for awhile. They are in different years of college...senior and sophomore...and JR was even studying abroad this past spring semester...so it's completely possible that they never ran into each other and it means nothing. But combined with them both being in the same sorority (when it was active along with it being underground)...and the fact that they both were linked to LS...some red flags went up in my mind.

By all accounts I've read, they didn't know each other. But they seem to have an awful lot in common. Just saying....

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There is a link on the first page of this thread as to who's who in the case. It lists most people involved, prior arrests, their lawyers, age, area of studies, and where they are now, if known. (It doesn't mention anyone involved in the altercation at SW, though.)

Sorry, I would post link, but don't know how, lol. Anyone feel free to post it.

Does anyone know if there is a compiled list somewhere for viewing that has details that are known in this case? Such as witness testimonies (including the altercation), witness media interviews, timelines, LE's releases of info, polygraph and DNA testing, surveillance video info, etc? Really just the facts as they were given, you know, all in one post or article.

Also, any others working on this, like the TG guy if heard of?

Jupiter812 said:

It's not Friday morning it is Friday evening 5:30 p.m. on the day that Btown observed anyway. I don't think any one of these POI could keep face with LS's body there all day.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6938172&highlight=north+dumpster#post6938172

Duly noted...my time was off. It still seems to be before LE was searching dumpsters so it's completely plausible that her body was there. That was my only point. I don't think the missing persons report was made until 4pm. How soon would they be digging in dumpsters? Probably after trash pickup. As far as the POI not keeping face....I can understand that point as well...but JR gave his story over the phone to HT and got out of Bloomington rather quickly. I'm not saying he is definitely responsible, just my thought when you made that comment. It could still be a stranger abduction...but the dumpster seems to be more and more likely if all of these reports are true.



Yes, I've thought this is why they first said it was searched then said it wasn't. Of course most everyone wants to eviscerate them for being so incompetent and bungling the case when in fact it could prove to be a brilliant strategy. That's my hope anyway.

They could also be searching right now, just not publicizing it which would be a media circus of course.

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Would absolutely be brilliant! Totally agree...if it were to work. They did originally say yes it had been searched...and then no...just like they backtracked on the fight as SW which turned out to be true. Interesting. And the parents are completely supporting LE...but more distant relatives (cousins from NY) are posting on LS sites pleading with LE to search the landfill. Does that seem odd? Like extended family members don't know what the parents do? You'd think the parents would be the first to push LE to search the landfills so that they can find their daughter....and they aren't talking about it. Just seems suspicious to me.

Yeah...it'd be hard to shush the media. Local media doesn't seem to be reporting much though as it is. Don't you think that they would have scoured Sports for someone who was there to interview them? Why hasn't that happened? They only interviewed her friends which had no first hand knowledge of where she was...or her physical state...after 12:30am. Just seems like there were lots of people that would have had seen LS that night at Sports or SW that could vouch for her actions. Where are they? And why has no media tracked down and reported more on the boys involved in the altercation? People are talking....anonymously....just not to MSM. Hmmm. Sounds like a big shush effort to me.

The only info we have is from one person who saw the SW video and leaked LS's condition while leaving there. No mention of the altercation. If they saw the video's then could one speculate that they saw that part as well? Why no mention of it? Why leak one part and not the other? IMO they are being hushed. Just wondering how much weight LE have. Keeping the landfill search out of the media would be highly unlikely...at this point in time. What if they searched it before the landfill commotion started recently? It's pretty far away...Terra Haute...so is it possible that it went under the radar at that point in time? They've known about the dumpster hits since their cadaver dogs were used in June. Food for thought.

GobBluth said:

There is a link on the first page of this thread as to who's who in the case. It lists most people involved, prior arrests, their lawyers, age, area of studies, and where they are now, if known. (It doesn't mention anyone involved in the altercation at SW, though.)

Sorry, I would post link, but don't know how, lol. Anyone feel free to post it.

Does anyone know if there is a compiled list somewhere for viewing that has details that are known in this case? Such as witness testimonies (including the altercation), witness media interviews, timelines, LE's releases of info, polygraph and DNA testing, surveillance video info, etc? Really just the facts as they were given, you know, all in one post or article.

Also, any others working on this, like the TG guy if heard of?

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Here's the link you referenced. I never knew it was on page 1! I googled it unsuccessfully a bit ago.

http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2011/06/30/news.qp-0075723.sto

I've often thought how useful it would be to have a spreadsheet of all the known facts but alas, there is none that I know of.