Trial Thread 7 May 2012 - Closing Arguments, Defense then the Crown

Wondergirl · May 7, 2012

Derstine didn't have too much to say (even though he took all day).

He soley focused on TLM, while skimming over the culpability of his client's actions and inacations.

He avoided speaking about much of the forensics, that the Crown will focus on, no doubt.

All the pings, video, corroborating evidence - not much said, eh?

What can you say about all that, really? It's all circumstantial, hard, corroborating evidence to TLM's testimony.

You can't deny that Derstine, so, best not talk about it, really.

That blood, you know, the "proof" that Tori was in the car (really? that's ALL that was? *sickening*). Not much to say about that, eh?

The OTHER blood, you know, the stuff that was all mixed up, your client's and the victims? What was that from, just another Michael Rafferty Day?

Just because you client did a good job getting rid of evidence of his assault, witholding evidence, lying, and criminally, yes, criminally, participating in an unspeakable crime, does NOT make him innocent.

I bet he enjoys the song and tap-dance you did in the courtroom today, Derstine. I bet he is thrilled that he has someone on his side, who through silence and shifting blame, is defending him, the alleged child rapist and murderer. Hell, you may have even convinced HIM that he didn't do it, he wants to get out so bad.

I have faith the Jury will see the facts in this case, and render their verdict according to the law, and bring Victoria Stafford the Justice her memory deserves.

JMO

puppyraiser · May 7, 2012

MR talked about kidnapping with at least one of his POF female friends and supposedly with TLM. IMO I believe he dared her ("all talk"), she followed though and from the sounds of his lawyer, he was the one who was "all talk".

It would make TLM's story seem more plausible regarding Tori being "too old", "we can't keep her and we can't take her back" and "you know I'm going to *advertiser censored** her". When he saw TLM walking with Tori, right then and there he could have pulled away but he chose not to. Kidnapping may have been his original and only idea and it snowballed from there when TLM actually took a child............... a child people think she targeted. If that was the case, then she should have known that Tori was ALWAYS either with her brother or an adult on the way to and home from school. Kind of hard to target and kidnap a child who was never really unattended.... except for that fateful day. IMO MOO JMO

Tahorn · May 7, 2012

brighidin said:
Which story would that be?

At the very least, the very least, he let a distraught family search for their baby girl for three long agonizing months, knowing where she was and what happened to her. That is the least heinous thing he's done. Despicable.

I agree that he should own his actions and take responsibility. Leaving VS under the rocks was despicable ... sentence him to life for that alone, the torture that action caused VS family ...

What if, MR really was ignorant to TLM intentions, didn't know about the kidnapping and what would happen to VS once she became a liability... there was no way out from under that ... I can not see that working out for him in any way no matter what he did ... wouldn't that be sad, being thought of as the most hated man in Canada

OhSoCurious · May 8, 2012

Heliotrope said:
Sorry, I know I'm way behind....

All women present who would in early spring, while peeing outside in the middle of the woods, during a violent kidnapping REMOVE ENTIRELY:
- their pants / skirt
- their underwear
- their pantyhose / leggings
- their shoes

in order to urinate, please raise your hand now.

No? No one? <crickets chirping>

I'm surprised the women on the defence team didn't quash that - after all, 9 of 12 members of the jury are women.

Kindly envision yourself in pantyhose trying to stoop and pee. Do you see the pee running down your legs onto your pantyhose? The pantyhose act like cuffs limiting your leg movement. Now try to see a little girl trying to pull that off. JMO MOO IMO

I hate crickets and their noise.

otto · May 8, 2012

Macright said:
I don't think in the world..maybe the southern part of Ontario..I've never heard any outrage over the CA case and that was a well known case...maybe outrage in the US..but not here in Canada or elsewhere. most I had heard anyone say was.."oh she more than likely did it" ..JMO actually this case is not followed by many outside those areas (southern Ont.)...most people you mention it to they respond with.."oh that little girl from a few years back...thought someone already confessed and is in jail"....sorry but that's the truth...not everyone follows crimes unless they are in their backyard...so to speak...JMO JMO JMO

I think you are mistaken. Victoria's father cycled across the counrty to the Rocky Mountains to make sure that everyone was aware of this case.

Trial updates are on the daily news across the country.

tmhco · May 8, 2012

OhSoCurious said:
Kindly envision yourself in pantyhose trying to stoop and pee. Do you see the pee running down your legs onto your pantyhose? The pantyhose act like cuffs limiting your leg movement. Now try to see a little girl trying to pull that off. JMO MOO IMO

I hate crickets and their noise.

Really? Pull em down to your ankles. No one removes all their lower garments, coat and shoes to urinate in the woods, especially an 8 year old. So where are her clothes? JMO

Salem · May 8, 2012

Alethea Dice said:
That's true. But if he was so intent on getting rid of evidence, wouldn't he have vacuumed and cleaned it again at some point before he was arrested? Why was that tiny piece still there?

JMO

This is like asking the question - if he was so horrified, wouldn't he have called LE and told them what happened?

In my opinion, if he did vacuum again, he missed that piece. We know when LE finally came to talk to him, he just lied.

Salem

Jezbel · May 8, 2012

IMO Derstine did not raise reasonable doubt, he gave no explanation as to what his client was doing the entire time, he spent the whole time discrediting TLM but no reasoning as to what his client was doing while the murder was taking place, no explanation as to why mysteriously there was no cell usage by him during that time, no explanation why he drove up that rural lane way....... Really of MR wasn't aware Tori was being kidnapped in the beginning you can't not honesty say that he did not know what was going on and what the outcome would be as he drove up that quiet secluded lane way with an 8 yr old little girl whom he did not know.....

JMO

Jezbel · May 8, 2012

OhSoCurious said:
Kindly envision yourself in pantyhose trying to stoop and pee. Do you see the pee running down your legs onto your pantyhose? The pantyhose act like cuffs limiting your leg movement. Now try to see a little girl trying to pull that off. JMO MOO IMO

I hate crickets and their noise.

Umm not the case, been there done that *blush* so it's highly possible, no need to remove shoes, rights, skirt and coat just to squat and pee in the woods.

Moo of course

Salem · May 8, 2012

OhSoCurious said:
Kindly envision yourself in pantyhose trying to stoop and pee. Do you see the pee running down your legs onto your pantyhose? The pantyhose act like cuffs limiting your leg movement. Now try to see a little girl trying to pull that off. JMO MOO IMO

I hate crickets and their noise.

Well, kindly envision yourself in pantyhose stooping to pee in the woods. Are you going to remove all your clothing, go pee and then put it back on? I'm asking sincerely, because I have never seen a woman (or a child) do that - and we are fairly frequent campers. I would not remove my shoes, pantyhose, panties, and skirt. Wouldn't do it..... And it is much easier for children to pee in the woods then it is for me.

Salem

antiquegirl · May 8, 2012

Tahorn said:
I agree that he should own his actions and take responsibility. Leaving VS under the rocks was despicable ... sentence him to life for that alone, the torture that action caused VS family ...

What if, MR really was ignorant to TLM intentions, didn't know about the kidnapping and what would happen to VS once she became a liability... there was no way out from under that ... I can not see that working out for him in any way no matter what he did ... wouldn't that be sad, being thought of as the most hated man in Canada

(RSBM)

I thought that was R. Williams. No, wait. Isn't it P. Bernardo? Or is it C. Olsen? Oh, you mean this week! So sad and unfortunate that someone new always seems to come along to take over this title.

JMO

swedie · May 8, 2012

snoofer said:
How strange or not strange is it for a defense to show pretty much nothing in way of defense until the closing argument? Is this common? Will we be surprised? MOO

a. will there be a shocker
b. will defense pull a rabbit out of their hat
c. will the defense lead show his brilliance today and leave us in awe?
d. will this be the turning point for defense?
e. will this be just much of the same
f. or by this afternoon is defense...going down.
g. or by the end of the day; will the group still be divided and or straddling the fence?

What do you think? MOO

If by end of day (g) applies, then crown could be in real trouble. I hope that either way it goes, it is definitive and leaves no doubt about guilt or innocence. JMO

Wow I'm literally in shock about the defense's closing argument. Absolutely nothing. Derstine didn't even spin a story for MR. For most of the closing I could have sworn I was at TLM's trial. Sounds like Derstine has convicted MR of abduction at least. He was also very proud of his one and only unreliable witness who had many of us scratching our heads asking WTH?He tried to poopoo the Crown's evidence away saying there was none when it came right down to it. Makes me wonder if Derstine was awake through the whole trial up until today. He became very obsessed with TLM who plead guilty and is serving 25 years. Her choice of music and her writings seemed to be a big indication of her guilt and state of mind, but then later admitted that music does not influence the way people think and act. He was also obsessed with giving lots of examples. Ikes I wasn't impressed whatsoever but that's just MPO.

brighidin · May 8, 2012

antiquegirl said:
(RSBM)

I thought that was R. Williams. No, wait. Isn't it P. Bernardo? Or is it C. Olsen? Oh, you mean this week! So sad and unfortunate that someone new always seems to come along to take over this title.

JMO

Dead. Thankfully.
I think it is probably a toss up between Bernardo and Williams, but that is because they are high profile cases. I agree with you: very unfortunate.

swedie · May 8, 2012

Jezbel said:
Umm not the case, been there done that *blush* so it's highly possible, no need to remove shoes, rights, skirt and coat just to squat and pee in the woods.

Moo of course

Hey no issue. Think about when you're all dressed up in a nice dress, high heels and nylons and you have to go us the ladies room. Sorry but I for one NEVER sit on public restroom toilet seats. I pull up my dress, hike down my nylons and panties and squat over the toilet while wearing high heels to boot. I bet many other women do likewise. Not hard at all MOPO.

swedie · May 8, 2012

Dmman said:
I don't think they can pull out a trump card without evidence to back it...at this point it would be circumstantial, if that. I think Derstine will play the TLM mastermind card to the fullest. It's the only defense they have IMO...and a weak one at that....IMO

You are absolutely right with your prediction Dmman! Way to go! Hope you go to the horse races lol.

brighidin · May 8, 2012

swedie said:
Wow I'm literally in shock about the defense's closing argument. Absolutely nothing. Derstine didn't even spin a story for MR. For most of the closing I could have sworn I was at TLM's trial. Sounds like Derstine has convicted MR of abduction at least. He was also very proud of his one and only unreliable witness who had many of us scratching our heads asking WTH?He tried to poopoo the Crown's evidence away saying there was none when it came right down to it. Makes me wonder if Derstine was awake through the whole trial up until today. He became very obsessed with TLM who plead guilty and is serving 25 years. Her choice of music and her writings seemed to be a big indication of her guilt and state of mind, but then later admitted that music does not influence the way people think and act. He was also obsessed with giving lots of examples. Ikes I wasn't impressed whatsoever but that's just MPO.

I agree with the bolded. It was so obvious that was all he had.

I understand that Derstine does not have to prove MR's innocence, but that closing was all over the place. It didn't even refute the crown's argument in a meaningful, substantive way. Pretty much everything hinged on TLM, but that is a weak argument because:

a) she plead guilty and had nothing to gain by testifying

b) taken as a whole, a lot of the other evidence corroborates her story, and

c) It isn't logical. Derstine wants the jury to think TLM is a liar. He repeated that several times throughout. Yet, he wants them to believe that she wasn't lying when she said she killed Tori. You can't tell a group of people that one person is a liar, a skilled liar whose lies rival the best hollywood actors, a liar who only tells portions of the truth to benefit themselves....except the one statement they made that supports MR's case? Yeah, that wasn't a lie. She wasn't lying then. how does he know?! He can't, unless MR told him so, but we know that MR is also a liar (per his interview).

It isn't logical. I can't see any reasonable person accepting that premise.

all imo.

I would also like to suggest that those who think Tori will be easily forgotten: no, you are wrong. Many of us here, across Canada, and in other countries will always remember her. This is due to her beautiful spirit, the high profile nature of her case, and the hard work and dedication of her father. I also believe that when her brother grows up, he will do good things to honour her memory and never let people forget her. <3

Sillybilly · May 8, 2012

Salem said:
This is like asking the question - if he was so horrified, wouldn't he have called LE and told them what happened?

In my opinion, if he did vacuum again, he missed that piece. We know when LE finally came to talk to him, he just lied.

Salem

A few years ago I had my SUV stolen and it was recovered. The driver's side window had been smashed for the thieves to gain entry. No matter how many times I vacuumed, two or three years later there were still pieces of glass surfacing. Where it would come from I don't know.

An old expression that comes to mind is that "Dead men do tell tales". What are the chances that the ONLY sliver that remained of the seat just happened to have blood on it? Says to me that there was a larger amount of blood or other body fluids on the rest of the seat that is missing.

JMO

ETA: I goofed kinda ... the original expression was "Dead men don't tell tales", but there are those in forensics and LE who believe that they do.

Jezbel · May 8, 2012

swedie said:
Hey no issue. Think about when you're all dressed up in a nice dress, high heels and nylons and you have to go us the ladies room. Sorry but I for one NEVER sit on public restroom toilet seats. I pull up my dress, hike down my nylons and panties and squat over the toilet while wearing high heels to boot. I bet many other women do likewise. Not hard at all MOPO.

Very true swedie, I think most do this on a daily basis

daisy.faithfull · May 8, 2012

I have a couple of very specific questions that I just want to make I have the correct answers too. It's very frustrating because it seems like there are so many conflicting facts in the msm and the tweets. I hope that once the jury begins their deliberations we will get definitive answers.

Maybe I missed it, but did anyone here in Websleuths land go to court today?

And as always, thank you to the tweeters, the mods, and everyone who keeps this forum going.

swedie · May 8, 2012

OhSoCurious said:
targeted, not a stranger ... all I'm saying as my opinion

MR set it up to abduct a child from TLM's neighbourhood "just in case" they were caught. MR could once again make it look like it was her idea. He was hoping to remove himself from every picture possible. Sending her into HD, daring TLM to abduct a child. I would not be surprised in the least if MR put the hammer in her hand. Very well could be why TLM changed her story, because in reality if she did hit Tori with the hammer, it was at his say so. I'm sure he also egged her on while she kicked and stomped Tori. MR is one sick minded psychopathy. As stated by TLM MR said "you're just as far into this as I am", or something to that nature. He wanted to make it look more like she was the guilty party and it was all her idea and he was some dumb innocent dupe. He was very cunning but actually quite stupid, and very manipulative IMHO. Thankfully the truth came out from TLM and tomorrow the Crown will prove TLM told the truth and this will put MR away. I have no doubt about it, he's going to be found guilty on all three charges. JMHO

Trial Thread 7 May 2012 - Closing Arguments, Defense then the Crown

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