IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 #26

bx2 said:

The context to that claimed quote of "it's not my fault", if it helps, was in regard to the police searching the townhouse.



It seems like Salzmann's quotes get interpreted literally here, like the no memory thing and the bit about 3 or 4 people seeing LS after his client. Look at what happened to his original quotes about his client being taken care of by LS... (purported) video evidence to the contrary was found. I think what he's said can be useful at painting a picture, but it doesn't have to be black or white, its probably closer to gray.

That being said, why 15 minutes? Like you stated above it prevents him from having to explain the exit from Sports. Okay, so what happened 15 minutes before getting punched that he remembers? Is it just some general memory of being at Sports or is there something in particular that he knows to have happened at that time. Whether it be interviews with Sports personnel, CR cell/text records, LS or CR credit card records, interviews with others that may have interacted or witnessed them there that night, surely the reason why they left (and left behind her things) is known to LE.... right? Please tell me they can at least deduce this.

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JR's comment is still loaded, and in a way even more so since she was allegedly in his townhouse. To me, it implies someone is guilty of something. Or he is speaking like a child who doth protest too much.

It is possible for head injury victims to regain lost memory over time. It is also possible for the head case to recall by returning to the scene and by talking to others about the night's activities. Wish they could subpoena him to do this.

bx2 said:

The context to that claimed quote of "it's not my fault", if it helps, was in regard to the police searching the townhouse.

It seems like Salzmann's quotes get interpreted literally here, like the no memory thing and the bit about 3 or 4 people seeing LS after his client. Look at what happened to his original quotes about his client being taken care of by LS... (purported) video evidence to the contrary was found. I think what he's said can be useful at painting a picture, but it doesn't have to be black or white, its probably closer to gray.

That being said, why 15 minutes? Like you stated above it prevents him from having to explain the exit from Sports. Okay, so what happened 15 minutes before getting punched that he remembers? Is it just some general memory of being at Sports or is there something in particular that he knows to have happened at that time. Whether it be interviews with Sports personnel, CR cell/text records, LS or CR credit card records, interviews with others that may have interacted or witnessed them there that night, surely the reason why they left (and left behind her things) is known to LE.... right? Please tell me they can at least deduce this.

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I've always assumed (risky, I know) that alcohol (or whatever?) had as much to do with CR's supposed condition as the fight at SW. One interview with MB suggested that CR was under the influence when he and LS helped him to bed. I also remember a claim that CR wasn't with LS for the entire time at Sports. If so, maybe he'd prefer to forget what he was doing during that time? IDK ... maybe they had to get out of there fast and go to SW for something?

One thing that your post makes me wonder if why we hear about LS' supposed condition at Sports (i.e., talking about what she'd taken) but nothing about CR's. Like you, I'd love to think that LE knows the answers to this and other questions. But if they did, would the Spierers need CR to remember so badly? IDK, which worries me.

pjessie said:

Couldn't find the post, but a few pages back someone asked about the routes taken that night.
First - LS and DR from Smallwood to 5N via the infamous camera laden alley.
Second - LS and CR from 5N to Kilroys via ???? Thought someone said that they took 11th to Walnut and down to Kilroys, but that was unconfirmed??? Anyone?
Third - LS and CR from Smallwood to 5N again, again via the alley, and caught on camera
Last - LS alone from 5N back to Smallwood, this time a new route taking 11th over to College and down.

Here's where I"m going with this....same two points, human nature says most will take the same path. The one time she took a different path, they had a different destination. Assuming JR is telling the truth about the 4:15 call and LS leaving, then she knew she didn't have her phone...if she knew she didn't have her phone, I'm convinced she knew she didn't have her keys, wallet and SHOES? So where was she going? What else is in that direction that wouldn't require $$, shoes, wallet (ID) or phone? Boyfriends apt? I don't know....very concerning story if it's true.

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JW's apt was several blocks away in a different direction, on E. 9th St.

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-laur...ren-spierers-friends-20110630,0,5617179.story
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...search-dogs-at-homes-of-4-persons-of-interest

I thought she might have gone into 10th and College Apts or 10th and College Village, but it is my understanding that she would have been seen by cameras if she had done so. See photos of camera locations at this link
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=140294"]IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

Ros' post above reminds me about a poster here whose family member works at a business located at Walnut and 9th St. and was asked by a detective if they have a security camera. They do not.

Ros said:

JW's apt was several blocks away in a different direction, on E. 9th St.

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-laur...ren-spierers-friends-20110630,0,5617179.story
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...search-dogs-at-homes-of-4-persons-of-interest

I thought she might have gone into 10th and College Apts or 10th and College Village, but it is my understanding that she would have been seen by cameras if she had done so. See photos of camera locations at this link
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

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A few things here. First, going back up the thread to the "routes taken" part, my ideas are as follows:

- The reason kids were going through the alley from Smallwood to 5N (and back again) is because the alley was much closer to the 5N entrance than College Avenue was...and because the Morton Street sidewalk was (and still is) a horrid pile of bricks and debris (and rabbits which jump out at you at night). It's ALSO because the central elevator (and stairs, which I think come into play later) dump out in the retail parking alley, which is underneath the building and spits out onto 9th street, right across from the alley that leads to 5N.

- If I was walking from 5N to Sports, I would almost certainly take 11th to Walnut and then head south (right). It's the shortest stoplight to wait to cross on that route. A local (or a student who lives at 5N) would almost certainly have gone that route, rather than take the alley route back. I don't know if that happened but I'd be shocked if it didn't.

- After the altercation in Smallwood, I have always believed that LS and CR fled down the central stairs (next to the elevator) and that spat them out into the retail parking alley, which once again would've oriented them up the alley towards 5N.

- The notion that LS would've gone up to College Avenue on 11th Street on her way back home at 4:15 never made much sense. Why would she do that when taking the alley back was closer, more familiar, and quicker? Unless JR's statement that he "watched her round the corner" actually meant that he watched her round the corner into the alley, rather than onto College Avenue.

- As far as CR's amnesia, it is possible that he was too drunk/high at Sports and started blacking out. It makes SOME sense --- how he wouldn't be able to defend himself in the fight, and why he would need to be helped home. But it raises other questions. Because if LS was more sober than CR, then fine...but why would she leave all of her things at Sports, then? That makes little sense.

bx2 said:

The context to that claimed quote of "it's not my fault", if it helps, was in regard to the police searching the townhouse.



It seems like Salzmann's quotes get interpreted literally here, like the no memory thing and the bit about 3 or 4 people seeing LS after his client. Look at what happened to his original quotes about his client being taken care of by LS... (purported) video evidence to the contrary was found. I think what he's said can be useful at painting a picture, but it doesn't have to be black or white, its probably closer to gray.

That being said, why 15 minutes? Like you stated above it prevents him from having to explain the exit from Sports. Okay, so what happened 15 minutes before getting punched that he remembers? Is it just some general memory of being at Sports or is there something in particular that he knows to have happened at that time. Whether it be interviews with Sports personnel, CR cell/text records, LS or CR credit card records, interviews with others that may have interacted or witnessed them there that night, surely the reason why they left (and left behind her things) is known to LE.... right? Please tell me they can at least deduce this.

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If they were asked to leave, or kicked out, because either one was intoxicated and creating a disturbance, then yes, witnesses would be able to provide those details. But if the two decided to leave for a reason known only to each other, then I'd say not necessarily.

It would be helpful to know if they gave any indication they would be returning. Did they say to anyone, "we'll be right back"? Did either leave an unpaid bar tab? If they weren't kicked out, then Lauren's shoes and cell phone being left behind makes me think they planned to return. It doesn't provide the answer to why they left, though. That's where CR is the key. But I suppose that falls within the timeframe of his amnesia.

Hmm...well what about an hour earlier? What did Lauren say to him then? Did she indicate any plans for the evening? Any desire to do something or go somewhere beside Sports? Did she mention any names? Anyone she planned to see, or hoped to see, that night? Those are a few of the questions the Spierers deserve to have answered. And for the life of me, I don't understand why any decent human being would refuse them. If CR has nothing to offer, so be it. How cowardly not to make an effort to help. What harm can come from sitting down face to face and retracing the evening's events? None, unless you have something to hide. IMO.

The same goes for JR and anyone else who was with Lauren that evening and who has turned a deaf ear to the Spierers' pleas. IMO

I guess I'd be interested in hearing how the tab got handled. Cash is pretty rare, and if I recall correctly, at Sports you need to give a card up front and you get it back when you close out. That would at least show an intention of leaving. Maybe they were drinking on someone else's tab, well, that party could maybe provide some answers as to what made them leave and if there was a thought they'd be coming back.

More info that is not within CR's memory loss period would include the route that they took to Sports AND if they happened to go anywhere in between JR's and Sports. I think we've been acting under the impression that they went straight from JR's to Sports, but maybe they went somewhere before arriving at Sports. I don't think it would be all that relevant, but it could be another potential destination of hers after leaving JR's at 430, perhaps thinking she left her phone somewhere besides Sports.

In some other cases I have seen LE be able to obtain cell phone records for the last people known to have seen a missing person. I don't know why LE should not have been able to obtain such records in this case. How else can they investigate if they cannot get search warrants for this basic info? JMO

holly2325 said:

Good Post.
I agree with you that it is likely that JR reached out to someone early Friday morning. Either that or they put LS in the dumpster in back and got lucky. Either way their current behavior suggests that they are somehow sure she is now unfindable. There is a limited number of people I can imagine JR would be comfortable calling about disposal of a body. What if they say no? I could consider the landlord or drug supplier, but Dad and brother are at the top of my list. IMO the 4:15 call to DR was to establish something, either that JR was home or DR was home or to attach a phone to someone. The attachment of LS to the call I believe was an idea that he came up with later.


I would love to be clear about the possibilities in obtaining cel phone records.
For example:

1. If LE has a cel phone number for JR can they get an itemized list of all outgoing/incoming calls from his phone? Say for the dates between April 1 and Sept 30. I used to get an itemized cel phone bill with this info, that would be perfect for such a search. Do these kinds of records exist and for how long?

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The chart in this article shows the retention periods for four major wireless providers. The second link is the USDOJ report referenced in the article.
http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2011/09/cellular-customer-data/

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/threatlevel/2011/09/retentionpolicy.pdf

holly2325 said:

2. How would they do this legally, figure out who his carrier was and get a subpoena? Do you think Salzman and Voyles have grounds to block this?

3. Would circumstances allow LE to subpoena the cel records of the Rosenbaum home phone for incoming calls. Same for Dad Rosenbaums cel. Looking for phone calls from what might be a second cel phone of JR.

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In the past, LE could rather easily access that information. Too easily, in some minds. Now the law's constitutionality is being tested in courts all around the country. So while it's still possible to obtain the information, in certain jurisdictions LE would be required to show probable cause for a search warrant. Having said that, I don't know the current status of the law in Indiana (or Michigan).

Wall Street Journal, November 16, 2011
At the same time, judges in lower courts have been questioning the constitutionality of the law, which only requires officers to show “specific and articulable facts” the electronic records sought are “relevant and material” to an ongoing investigation...

Last year, Magistrate Judge Stephen Smith of U.S. District Court in the Southern District of Texas issued an opinion denying the government access to 60 days worth of information about a cellphone subscriber’s location and phone calls, without a search warrant.

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http://blogs.wsj.com/digits/2011/11...rantless-cellphone-tracking-unconstitutional/

Ros said:

JW's apt was several blocks away in a different direction, on E. 9th St.

http://www.fox59.com/news/wxin-laur...ren-spierers-friends-20110630,0,5617179.story
http://www.examiner.com/missing-per...search-dogs-at-homes-of-4-persons-of-interest

I thought she might have gone into 10th and College Apts or 10th and College Village, but it is my understanding that she would have been seen by cameras if she had done so. See photos of camera locations at this link
IN - Lauren Spierer, 20, Bloomington, 03 June 2011 *PHOTOS & MAPS* - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community

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Thanks for the clarification, I had always had in my head that JW lived to the East on 9th....you're right, wrong direction.

northsider said:

A few things here. First, going back up the thread to the "routes taken" part, my ideas are as follows:

- The reason kids were going through the alley from Smallwood to 5N (and back again) is because the alley was much closer to the 5N entrance than College Avenue was...and because the Morton Street sidewalk was (and still is) a horrid pile of bricks and debris (and rabbits which jump out at you at night). It's ALSO because the central elevator (and stairs, which I think come into play later) dump out in the retail parking alley, which is underneath the building and spits out onto 9th street, right across from the alley that leads to 5N.

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I always figured they take the alleys because they are drunk and are avoiding another public intox arrest! Also, it is shorter distance to travel and well, just more fun and part of their hood.

northsider said:

- If I was walking from 5N to Sports, I would almost certainly take 11th to Walnut and then head south (right). It's the shortest stoplight to wait to cross on that route. A local (or a student who lives at 5N) would almost certainly have gone that route, rather than take the alley route back. I don't know if that happened but I'd be shocked if it didn't.

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That route is the least likely to me. It goes through a dead zone where there is nothing of note until Sports. And at 4:30 a.m. there's no need to wait for the light.

Jupiter812 said:

That route is the least likely to me. It goes through a dead zone where there is nothing of note until Sports. And at 4:30 a.m. there's no need to wait for the light.

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Except they wouldn't have taken the route at 4:30 AM. We're talking about the trip that LS and CR took from 5N to Sports, which happened around 1:00 AM. And it's not a "dead zone" at all --- Jake's nightclub is between 10th and 9th, as are a few other non-drinking establishments.

I forgot about Jakes. I still consider that route uneventful compared to the zone of 10th and college apts and smallwood and Big Red Liquors.

Guess I need to review why we're having this discussion in the first place.

Official Lauren Spierer Updates from Her Family

Our daughter Lauren Spierer, an Indiana University student, disappeared June 3, 2012 in Bloomington, IN. We continue to seek information, which will lead us to find Lauren and the circumstances surrounding her disappearance. As a result of an extremely generous donation, the reward has been increased to $250,000.00. Anyone with information, that leads us to our daughter, will be eligible to receive the reward. You may contact Beau Dietl Associates at 1.800.777.9366, www.investigations.com or the Bloomington Police Department at (812)339-4477.

All information submitted that has a direct impact relative to finding Lauren will be evaluated. Information that is deemed credible and helps result in the resolution of this case will be awarded to the appropriate individuals from the total reward amount of $250,000.00.

We remain dedicated to finding our daughter. For more information about Lauren you can visit www.findlauren.com. We offer our sincere thanks for any information you can provide.

Rob and Charlene Spierer

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/south_central/spierer-family-ups-reward-cash-to-250k

Not particular to this case, but in general - here's a question: How often does a reward solve a case of any type? Can anyone point me to a resource/answer? Thanks

Let's pray a qtr mill gets some people talking. That's a good chunk of change. I don't know what to think of the cops & what they may be holding onto. I understand keeping things close to their best to protect the integrity of the case-but its been so long now. I had hoped when the kids got back to school there would be a lot of talk & something would come out. Isn't it true tho that there r PsOI that havent ever been told to us?

Jupiter812 said:

I'm not questioning whether it's possible or not. I know it is possible according to a local expert who was interviewed by the local paper about CR's alleged injury. I was pointing out that CR's amnesia claim begins 15 min before the punch, not after.

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BBM
That's the part I find strange too, since (going back to time when I was young and was knocked out) to this day I have the clearest memory of events right before...

Some thoughts I have about the recent reward increase...

Perhaps Dietl has gathered info that warrants this attempt; perhaps, for example, people are talking but not naming name(s) and they are seeing if the reward will draw out the answer from one individual. I wonder if Rob Spierer's comment on camera several weeks ago about Dietl obtaining new info could be this info.

If this one individual is from one of the wealthier families I don't think $250,000 will be persuasive.

Spring Break is in a couple of weeks. This is a big party-to-excess time for many students. Maybe someone will crack.

But with the return from Spring Break signals the end of the semester, graduation, and leaving Bloomington. Not good.

marycarney said:

http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/local/south_central/spierer-family-ups-reward-cash-to-250k

Not particular to this case, but in general - here's a question: How often does a reward solve a case of any type? Can anyone point me to a resource/answer? Thanks

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Good question! Also, only a week or two prior to this reward increase, the reward for Holly Bobo was increased to 250K...

Jupiter812 said:

Some thoughts I have about the recent reward increase...

Perhaps Dietl has gathered info that warrants this attempt; perhaps, for example, people are talking but not naming name(s) and they are seeing if the reward will draw out the answer from one individual. I wonder if Rob Spierer's comment on camera several weeks ago about Dietl obtaining new info could be this info.

If this one individual is from one of the wealthier families I don't think $250,000 will be persuasive.

Spring Break is in a couple of weeks. This is a big party-to-excess time for many students. Maybe someone will crack.

But with the return from Spring Break signals the end of the semester, graduation, and leaving Bloomington. Not good.

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Good point about Spring Break - PI's should plant some college age informers if they know if/where any of the POI's are going...