GUILTY AZ - Six killed, 13 injured in shooting at Gabrielle Giffords event, 8 Jan 2011 - #2

I actually did not see anything of note while at the event, I and a few friends, all who went to HS with Gabby were standing way back in the parking lot waiting for the crowd to thin so we could make our way up to her later and say hello. We really werent paying much attention and just having small talk when out of nowhere we heard the gun shots and within minutes the crowd was dispersed/corraled by LE and we made our way back to our cars and got out of there, meeting later at a McDonalds to discuss what had just happened. It was mass chaos I can tell you that much.

I would like to say that in spite of what many say in the media, Tucson, Arizona is not a right wing racist gun toting town, Phoenix is very much so, at least parts of it, but Tucson is a very liberal arts centered community and it is not made up of the type of people one thinks of when they think of Arizona these days. Its a very good and safe community and I personally do not know any redneck racist types the likes of which the media will make you believe Arizona is infested with. It just isnt so!

JL is unfortunately a very sick young man and I cant help but feel some compassion for him and certainly for his family and the family of the victims, this was a senseless act of violence and the entire community is hurting because of it and we have all come together as best we can to make things right for those who are suffering. I think JL simply got through the cracks and any number of people who might of picked up the phone to try and get him some help may have prevented this but hindsight is always 20 20. In any case I do not feel any hatred towards the young man, he has a medical issue that is likely not any fault of his own, aside from smoking some pot, which many others do regularly with no ill effect, he probably didnt have any hand in making himself as mentally ill as he had become in his adult life, I hope he can someday get the help he needs and come to grips with what he has done and show the mercy and compassion towards his victims and their families that they very much deserve.

As an attorney I could not argue that JL is legally insane, meaning that he didnt know or understand the wrongfullness of his actions, clearly he did, he planned ahead as he said himself, but one can be guilty and insane, they are not mutually exclusive in a court of law and I suspect in the end that will be verdict, guilty but insane and he will wind up in a medical facility where he belongs, getting the help he needs, as opposed to rotting away in prison and never having the chance to become a better person and learn from the very grave and senseless act of violence that he committed.

I know that if Gabby has a say in it that is exactly what she would want, she is not a big fan of the death penalty and would clearly want this young man to get the help he needs in a medical facility, locked away from society where he can no longer do harm.

I have to be honest with you,I never thought of Arizona as a "redneck" state. Like anyplace else in the US,there is a variety of people. I think it must be getting a rep because of the immigration issue,but people are all over on that too.
As for the Sheriff,if indeed he ignored death threats reported,whether it was because of Jared's Mom working for the county or just negligence, it needs to be carefully looked at.I know he did say that there were reports of death threats the 1st day,but since has back pedaled,which is strange in itself.
 
Interesting interview with one of JL's ex girlfriends on the local news just now, she said many things some of which:

His parents would never let her or any of his friends in the house because the family was always fighting.

When asked if she thought JL was mentally ill she said absolutely not and that she thinks it was all an ACT including all of the college classroom outbursts, she said he simply liked to get a rise out of people and she was CERTAIN he was not mentally ill but ENJOYED ACTING as if he were.


She seemed really fond of JL in the interview and I didnt get the feeling she was lying about anything she said as she seemed quite frank and sincere and matter of fact in her replies.


Interesting.
 
Well shut the front door --- it's Paximus! :bananalama:

Good to see you again but hate that it's under such grim circumstances.

Interesting comments by Mr. Kelley. I tend to think the Sherrif was spouting off a bit too much in his official capacity; it just seemed inappropriate and now we may find there was a reason.

Pax I'm sure this has the community reeling. One sick loner that people fear and now we have to suffer tragedy and look at his disturbing booking photo.

Please keep us posted on the local skuttle. :seeya:
 
Interesting interview with one of JL's ex girlfriends on the local news just now, she said many things some of which:

His parents would never let her or any of his friends in the house because the family was always fighting.

When asked if she thought JL was mentally ill she said absolutely not and that she thinks it was all an ACT including all of the college classroom outbursts, she said he simply liked to get a rise out of people and she was CERTAIN he was not mentally ill but ENJOYED ACTING as if he were.


She seemed really fond of JL in the interview and I didnt get the feeling she was lying about anything she said as she seemed quite frank and sincere and matter of fact in her replies.


Interesting.

Maybe its easier for her to believe he's pretending MI. I think its evidnent he's very out there.Somethings you just can't fake.
I have noticed a theme in most comments from the friends and its the bad family dynamics. Even though schizophrenia(if he definitley has it) is a bio chemical thing,it sounds like the family had alot of issues too.
 
Well shut the front door --- it's Paximus! :bananalama:

Good to see you again but hate that it's under such grim circumstances.

Interesting comments by Mr. Kelley. I tend to think the Sherrif was spouting off a bit too much in his official capacity; it just seemed inappropriate and now we may find there was a reason.

Pax I'm sure this has the community reeling. One sick loner that people fear and now we have to suffer tragedy and look at his disturbing booking photo.

Please keep us posted on the local skuttle. :seeya:

My Zigster!! I have been hoping very much that we would reunite over here in a thread somewhere along the line and I am so very glad we have, please stay in touch I miss our chats!

So good to see you.

The community agrees with you generally about the Sheriff going a little too far during his presser and offering far more opinion than fact but that his how he has always rolled, he is a good man, he has been a personal friend of my father for 50 years and I have always known him to be a very decent human being. He certainly is not polished well enough for big media pressers like he had the other day but hey this is Tucson not LA! We havent ever had to deal with anything quite like this around these parts.

Again, good to see you and I will have much more to say here so keep checkin in!
 
It is just miraculous what she's able to do so shortly after the shooting. Bless Daniel Hernandez for likely saving Gabrielle's life, and all the medical professionals who are taking care of her. :prayer:

My wife actually works with Danny at the University, he is a great kid and a real hero in all of this, what he did is the exact opposite of what most humans do in this type of situation, instead of running away from the bullets he ran right towards them and likely saved Gabby's life because of that.

Danny H, we all thank you for your service to Gabby and the victims of this senseless act of violence!

I also agree that it is indeed a miracle that not only is Gabby alive but that she is already responding to people like her husband and some of her congresscritter colleagues, it is a great story that has come from a terrible tragedy.

I suspect that if Gabby recovers fully and I am not so sure that she will, but if she does and is able to resume her political career, she may someday become a very powerful and influential presidential candidate.

Having went to high school with her I can tell you this, she is a tough gal and a real survivor, she will fight to the very end and never once give an inch!
 
My wife actually works with Danny at the University, he is a great kid and a real hero in all of this, what he did is the exact opposite of what most humans do in this type of situation, instead of running away from the bullets he ran right towards them and likely saved Gabby's life because of that.

Danny H, we all thank you for your service to Gabby and the victims of this senseless act of violence!

I also agree that it is indeed a miracle that not only is Gabby alive but that she is already responding to people like her husband and some of her congresscritter colleagues, it is a great story that has come from a terrible tragedy.

I suspect that if Gabby recovers fully and I am not so sure that she will, but if she does and is able to resume her political career, she may someday become a very powerful and influential presidential candidate.

Having went to high school with her I can tell you this, she is a tough gal and a real survivor, she will fight to the very end and never once give an inch!
I pray for her full recovery and hopefully she'll be on the Congressional floor once again. And as for Daniel, he's proven his unselfish character and I predict great things in his life and career. :) MOO
 
Money. Was he perhaps saving his college money? If his Dad is disabled he may be getting pell grants and other funding?
 
It is very interesting how quickly the Sheriff came out and politicized this... when his office was very aware of this individual. It's defiitely not looking like he was unknown and came up out of nowhere...
 
The top unemployment benefit in Arizona as of 2009 was $240 a week. Which should be plenty for someone still living with his parents.
 
I am local and was at the event that morning, I went to high school and was good friends with Gabby so this all hits very close to home for me.

I plan to post more when time permits but here is a rundown of what I have gathered so far as to what happened the morning of the shooting.


JL was driving around in his chevy nova on the same side of town as the shooting, around 8 am and was pulled over for running a red light, he was let off with a warning after his name and plates were run and came back clear.

He then returned home. At some point in the weeks leading up to the shooting he bought a Glock 9 amm and extended 33 round magazine. His father took the gun away from him (maybe because JL was making threats? We dont know) and put the gun in a black bag and locked it in the trunk of the family car.

That morning when JL returned home after being pulled over he got in to the trunk of the family car and grabbed the black bag, the father saw him and came outside after him, JL ran in to the desert area surrounding his home and his father got in to his truck and chased after him. The father soon gave up when JL disappeared in to the desert.

JL then goes to a quicky mart store after taking gun out of black bag and likely putting in to the waist line of his pants to conceal it, ditched the black bag in dumpster perhaps (it hasnt been found yet) and then called a cab on payphone. Cab came to pick him up and took him to Safeway where he then went in to Safeway with cab driver to get change to pay cab fare, he then started shooting.

Questions we dont have answers for yet:

JL had not worked in several years, couldnt hold a job, so where did he get the 600 dollars to buy Glock and Magazine and Ammo. Also appears he had large bill in pocket when he paid cab fare and needed to get change from inside safeway (why did he want change when he knew what was about to go down, strange) SO where did he get all this money? We do not know yet...


Will post more as time permits, feel free to ask any questions you have, I am a Tucson resident and know the city well and can answer any questions you may have.
PAXIMUS, thank you for sharing. I'm sending my well wishes to your old class friend, Ms. Giffords. I look forward to more of your posts.
 
Behind Loughner's million-mile stare

But is there a medical or psychiatric term for that disturbing million-mile stare we’ve seen in the eyes of accused killers like Loughner and Charles Manson?
Yes and no, says Dr. Alan Hirsch, a Chicago-based neurologist and psychiatrist.
"There is something called reverse ptosis, which is when the eyelids are up higher than normal,” says Hirsch. “You can see the whites of the eyes both above and below the iris. It’s been associated with diseases like hyperthyroidism and with psychiatric diseases such as paranoid or acute psychosis.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/41046591/ns/health-mental_health/
 
Paximus, I'm local Tucson. Glad you are here! The limited word person like me, has been wishing more locals would get involved. I just hope the politics would just take a dive. Jared had many mental health flags.

I have to say this has affected me like the "midtown rapist" years ago, the young girl raped and murdered found in an old car around Speedway, and other tragedies over the years. Hugs neighbor. Big hugs and prayers for the families. xoxoox
 
You can petition anything you want. Would a court grant it? Probably not...not unless he was deemed gravely disabled, which takes a whole heck of a lot. It would go far beyond some nonsensical comments, and people being scared of you. They would have to prove he was a clear and present danger to himself and others; that he had no way to take care of himself; and that he was so far out of touch with reality that he was unable to, say, remove himself from the path of an oncoming vehicle.

Gravely disabled is a generally accepted score of less than 50 on the Global Assessment Functioning scale, which is the most commonly used assessment scale of someone with MI to take care of themselves.

Since he was still living at home, and not actually acting out in a violent manner (that we know of), it probably would have gone no-where.

Courts are reluctant to take away someone's freedom unless they have an iron clad reason to...and I honestly don't think that any petition would've been successful.

'Course, I don't know AZ stuff; it might be different. But that's the way it works in CA, and the GAF score is generally universal, so it's probably similar.

Best-
Herding Cats

It sounds about right Herding also here, thanks.
 
Hey Pax: I get what you're saying about the Sheriff - not everyone is media saavy so I'm going to give him a break but only because I give it to Sarah Palin in her early days too. Some elected officials are just regular joes and not ready for prime time. I would say some really "no-no" stuff myself on the spot with mics and cameras...who knows. The problem is he's not really taking stock of it and admitting so, but that's OK. Maybe Sheriff Joe next door will help him out in that dept. lol.

I am so sorry for this tragedy happening to your friend and your community.

I said in the beginning I must be getting soft or something because my first thought was that this dude was mentally ill and his illness got the better of him.

One thing struck a cord; it was the lady who said he would ride his bike and talk or shout to nobody. That's exactly what a high school friend of mine who was the star quarterback started doing. We all thought he just did too many drugs, but his schizophrenia was setting in and it was very sad to see. It's really a difficult disease - now I don't know that Jared has that, but some of the symptoms seem familiar to the two guys I have known who were diagnosed.

You know they will make him get treatment so that he will be competent for trial...and that means that once he has meds and can truly realize what he's done it's just a step from one living hell to another.

Also, my niece and her 4 kids including my precious great niece just moved to Tuscon!!! I'm hoping they will adjust. I'm thankful you described a Tuscon other than what is purported on the news.

Prayers for all involved.
 
JL is unfortunately a very sick young man and I cant help but feel some compassion for him and certainly for his family and the family of the victims, this was a senseless act of violence and the entire community is hurting because of it and we have all come together as best we can to make things right for those who are suffering. I think JL simply got through the cracks and any number of people who might of picked up the phone to try and get him some help may have prevented this but hindsight is always 20 20. In any case I do not feel any hatred towards the young man, he has a medical issue that is likely not any fault of his own, aside from smoking some pot, which many others do regularly with no ill effect, he probably didnt have any hand in making himself as mentally ill as he had become in his adult life, I hope he can someday get the help he needs and come to grips with what he has done and show the mercy and compassion towards his victims and their families that they very much deserve.

As an attorney I could not argue that JL is legally insane, meaning that he didnt know or understand the wrongfullness of his actions, clearly he did, he planned ahead as he said himself, but one can be guilty and insane, they are not mutually exclusive in a court of law and I suspect in the end that will be verdict, guilty but insane and he will wind up in a medical facility where he belongs, getting the help he needs, as opposed to rotting away in prison and never having the chance to become a better person and learn from the very grave and senseless act of violence that he committed.

I know that if Gabby has a say in it that is exactly what she would want, she is not a big fan of the death penalty and would clearly want this young man to get the help he needs in a medical facility, locked away from society where he can no longer do harm.

above SBM

Maybe its easier for her to believe he's pretending MI. I think its evidnent he's very out there.Somethings you just can't fake.
I have noticed a theme in most comments from the friends and its the bad family dynamics. Even though schizophrenia(if he definitley has it) is a bio chemical thing,it sounds like the family had alot of issues too.

Thank you, Paximus for your insightful and compassionate response. I agree with you that JL is obviously a very sick man and this is a very sad situation and I, too, think he is a victim of his illness over which he had no choice.

Hockeymom: I agree completely. It would be very difficult for her to consciously acknowledge having a relationship with such a sick individual. And it is quite possible (even probable) that he was not manifesting the signs of this illness yet during their relationship. But at this point in time, she is not in a position to diagnose him or convince me that he was acting. I think, as you suggested, that she has convinced herself because it enables her to deal with (and remove herself emotionally) from the situation.
 
Snipped, bolded by me.

No, actually, this is a typical progression of schizophrenia. It can seem alarmingly fast, but I'd venture to guess that it was years in coming; he was considered "odd" in high school, and it's 4 years since he's graduated (if my math is correct).

I'll venture another guess and say that we are hearing only a small portion of what went on in his mind...he's probably been hearing voices and been disturbed for a long while, and only in the last year and a half or so have the symptoms been so overt that someone with no training/experience in MI and outside the situation would think "hm. Something is wrong."

So if we think of it as beginning in HS, when his friends said he asked some strange questions, and think about when overt symptomology occurred (probably when he was in college, and according to some internet postings attributed to him, spring 2010), it really wasn't "too fast".

The key time in his MI was when it began to manifest outside his own mind, and that probably would've been in high school. That was when treatment would've been easier, more successful, and might've stopped this event. It was missed, as most MI is missed, in the early stage, and the development of the illness gathered steam, gained momentum, and a few years later, we have this situation on our hands.

Family and friends must be under so much guilt. I feel very bad for them.

Best-
Herding Cats

It's very scary to me, schizophrenia. One day, a couple years ago, I noticed that a young girl had been waiting on the steps of the high school for hours (I live across the street). No one came to pick her up. She sat stone still. It became dark so I sent I went to check on her. "Are you okay? Mom didn't come?" She didn't answer me and didn't move at all. I thought she was upset about something and kept talking. "Did something happen? Are you scared to go home? Can I call someone for you?" She refused to say a word. A feeling of unease came over me and I went and got a friend to help. She went across the street and I watched her talk to the girl for about half an hour. I brought the girl a snack and a drink. My friend was still talking to her. We thought she was in trouble, maybe an abusive home, maybe scared pf her parents, who knows. My friend came over and said she wasn't really responding much but agreeing with some of what she asked her, "Are you in trouble?" It was dark so we convinced the girl to come across the street to our porch. We intended to call the police. She came but was walking very strangely. On the porch, we noticed she had a cell phone and it was ringing constantly. We kept asking her if we could answer or did she need the police. We asked if we could walk her home and she said, "This is my home. This is my home." I began to freak out. She barely moved but started making strange sounds. I went inside and called the cops, frankly scared. My friend stayed outside and I stayed right inside the door with the police. At that point I feared she might suddenly lunge at one of us. My friend then said, 'Oh *****!" I looked and the girl had peed herself all over the porch. The cops pulled up right then. They could not get a coherent sentence except she kept saying she lived with us. She could barely move. They called an ambulance and they took her away. We cried, it was so sad and scary. I never saw her again.
She was about 15 and I thought she may have just had a sudden onset of catatonic schizophrenia. I have no idea if she showed signs before that. But I think usually it's not so sudden. I guess it depends.
 

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