OK Foss lake Discovery

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http://cjonline.com/news/2011-06-11/body-found-car-pulled-lake-shawnee#.TfU3x1uU1XY
[ame="http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=139968"]Identified! KS- Lake Shawnee - Human Remains Found in Car Pulled From Lake 6-11-11 - Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community[/ame]

A very similar case in Kansas in 2011.
A 1990s model Oldsmobile and a 1980s model Chevrolet Camaro were pulled from Lake Shawnee.
The agency had been testing new radar equipment on the lake's waters and identified what it believed to be two vehicles beneath the surface and notified the parks police
 
December said:
The weird thing is all four windows were down, but there were only three people in the car. I think it is possible the windows were already down. But, IDK. It really depends on how the people were found. If they were found mid-struggle to get out of the car (but just failed) that is one thing. But, if they were found all sitting more or less in their seats, then I think that means the windows were down already for some reason. I don't know what conclusion to draw from that though.

At this point I've got two facts and only two: the car went in the water. There are dead people in the car. I don't really know what happened yet. But, it is true that sometimes cars sink really fast.
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From the photos it looks like at least the drivers side window of the Camero was rolled up.
 
kline said:
From the photos it looks like at least the drivers side window of the Camero was rolled up.
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Yeah, I ought to have known not to trust CNN. There is a later photo where stuff is being removed from the car, I think they just glanced at that.
 
inthedark14 said:
ITA...I can't find a way around some speculation, but I think it's amazing that all these families will have their lost (FOR FORTY YEARS) loved ones back. I don't doubt that there are surviving close family members that are now finding peace knowing what happened to their kin.

I do also wonder, as is reported that the 2 cars/2 cases, etc were a relatively (for such a large man made body of water) close to one another not ever found in the last forty years. Has the launch been maintained, rehabbed or anything in that time? What goes into maintaining a launch? Has the lake ever in these long years experienced a drought that would bring it's waters to a low level where it's possible boats could not launch from that location?

I also wonder about fish finders, my DH has a very expensive one that makes me more than a little cranky (when I paid the bill for it) the thing tells you exactly what the depth is and shows if anything is below you (which would mess with the depth level from what I understand). I don't pretend for a second to be able to tell you how it works or why, but I know that when he "trolls" for fish and I'm driving the boat, I am expected to watch for differences in lake depth. It would be very odd to be heading out of a launch and within that close of a distance to the launch to see such an anomaly. Especially since there are times you spend a lot of time "a ways out" from the launch waiting for others to get their boat in or out.

IMO it's way odd that these two cars were rather close to the launch and all these years have gone by and no one came across them, except LE using very sophisticated new sonar equipment.

ALWAYS MOO
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According to some people that live there or near there Foss Lake was once a forest. They dammed it up and it filled with water, so I think that people with fish finders would be tripped up by the old trees in there or just think that it was once a hill, once you got the heavy duty sonar equipment out there it would be a little easier to tell that something's up.
 
From today's Sunday Oklahoman, fairly lengthy:

Foss Lake discoveries bring families hope for closure
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Local authorities believed Jimmy Williams and two friends were runaways, Williams said. There were no community rallies or memorials in the weeks or immediate years following the disappearance.

It was a different time. In the Vietnam era, teenagers sometimes wandered off to join the counter culture. Betty Williams was reassured her teen son and his friends would be back in a few days.

Theories that he ran away made no sense to the Williams family.

Jimmy Williams had left his clothes. He had expected a paycheck from the local grocery store where he worked the Saturday after he went missing.

“The family, we knew something bad happened that night. We knew that he wouldn't run away from home,” Williams said.
---
A three-paragraph report in a Sayre paper around the time of the disappearances does not mention Leah Johnson, just the two male teenagers. In a 1972 article in The Oklahoman, “Lea” Gail Johnson is described as “an Indian girl,” but the race of the two boys is not noted.
---
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much more at the link
 
SmoothOperator said:
Just to be clear I do not believe there is some serial killer and have not implied that I believe there to even be any foul play involved in these 2 cases.. What I did say is that I am fascinated at the fact that they did occur relatively close in time(when looking at it in the perspective of a 40year time span) and find it to be altogether remarkable that they've been a mere 50ft out, and 12ft down, side by side in Foss Lake for 40 years.. Again fascinating, IMO.

Not only fascinating is it to me in my POV from the outside looking in, but also in terms of what this means for the many who love and care about these six people who have been left for 4 long decades with no answers, clues, or even a hint as to what had happened to their loved ones.. Those answers took 40 years to finally come, but IMO when they did finally become revealed they leave little question as to it being a tragic accident that took their loved ones lives.. Well deserved closure after having lived the last 40 years with the just-not-knowing that they were all left with in regards to the disappearance of each of their loved ones.

**Please forgive the limitations that come w/my posting via mobile ATM**
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Hi Smooth, when you used the word "eerie", that's what came to my mind, things like serial killer, murder, etc. But now I understand what you meant.

Nothing wrong with sharing your opinions, thoughts, theories, etc. that's what this forum is for. And thankfully we can share in our happiness that those families now have more of an idea of "what happened" to their loved ones.
 
All I can think is maybe the lake being higher in 69 as well as perhaps the way the forest looked then was particularly confusing. Maybe it got changed slightly due to complaints from people who almost drove into the lake. Or maybe the scene just naturally changed and became more obvious. That's all I can think of to explain two such accidents relatively close together.

If they're not accidents, I hope some proof is found so people will know what happened.
 
Did you guys see that? They finally have a clear picture of Leah Gail Johnson! I always wondered what she looked like...

From This link right here
 

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It will be interesting to hear what shape the bones are in.

If a car were driving along at 30 - 40 mph and drove into the lake, I would assume the bodies inside the car would come to a sudden stop, similar to a head on collision. With no seat belts, I would expect to see some facial damage (i.e. broken noses) as bodies flew forward and hit the dashboard, steering wheel, etc.

If not unconcious, I would expect the occupants to be extremely disoriented. One moment, you are driving along having a good time. Then, bam, the car comes to a suddent stop and is filling up with water. The teenager disappeared in November so the water in the lake would have been around 40 degrees. If they didn't get out quickly, hypothermia would have set in very quickly.

I am still leaning toward two very tragic accidents, but two questions are nagging at me.

1) The cars facing opposite directions (which I know can be explained lots of different ways)

2) Two tragic accidents in two years...Then nothing...What happened after 1970? Did they install lighting? Warning signs?
 
I know nothing about cars and car wheels, but any chance both cars had the same wheels or car mechanic?
Now when there are car recalls due to defects, or whatever, everyone knows about it, then- perhaps not so much.
To clarify, when asking these and any other questions, it is speculation that is all.
An accident is of course the likely and logical conclusion, but imo. Ws is about looking at things from all sides and from a variety of perspectives.
 
Cincinnati Kid said:
I dare say this might be how other missing people may be found one day. How many "missing" are in a body of water somewhere? That some might be discovered in vehicles does help to provide more of a chance of identification when you figure vehicles have VIN numbers and maybe old license plates still with them.
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I had much the same thoughts when I heard of this. I would suspect a large number of mysterious disappearances may well have been cased of a vehicle landing in water. There are a couple of other disappearances of people at the beach or a lake, where I have always thought were likely drowning.

Combine that with the women that "disappeared" after botched abortions prior to 1972 and you could probably close quite a few cold cases.
 
This discovery is truly fascinating. I would so love to be there to examine the remains. I wonder if the program Google earth picks up things under water. Like a dark shape or something.
 
My understanding has been that Oklahoma has been in a drought, or that area has, and that the lake is lower than normal by about 12 feet. And, that the cars were down about 12 feet. So... that leads me to believe that normally over the course of the last 40 years the cars would have been 24 feet under the surface. And, it is not clear so it is unlikely that Google or satellite images would have seen the cars.
 
EmmaliLucia said:
Did you guys see that? They finally have a clear picture of Leah Gail Johnson! I always wondered what she looked like...

From This link right here
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I'm glad you posted that.

Looking at these kids, the police saying these kids went off 'to join the counterculture' is ridiculous. But, OTOH, unless someone happened to look in the lake, they weren't going to be found.
 
dotr said:
I know nothing about cars and car wheels, but any chance both cars had the same wheels or car mechanic?
Now when there are car recalls due to defects, or whatever, everyone knows about it, then- perhaps not so much.
To clarify, when asking these and any other questions, it is speculation that is all.
An accident is of course the likely and logical conclusion, but imo. Ws is about looking at things from all sides and from a variety of perspectives.
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That is a good point with them both being Chevys. It may well be accidental in both cases, but I feel there must be something else to it other than 'drove off into the lake'. Because only two cars did it and the lake has been there since 1961. I realize that CAN happen and maybe it did. But, the older car was known to have mechanical problems and the newer car had only been owned for six days.
 
OHP: Camaro Found In Foss Lake Likely Speeding When It Hit Water

http://www.news9.com/story/23528550/camaro-found-in-foss-lake-likely-speeding-when-it-hit-water

Oklahoma troopers say a Camaro missing since 1970 with three teenagers inside was likely damaged when it hit Foss Lake, perhaps at a high speed.
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Trooper George Hoyle told the Daily Elk Citian newspaper that the Camaro was running when it hit the water. He said the driver was driving "a little faster than he should have" and that the impact damaged the radiator fan, a motor mount and the fuel pump.

Hoyle says the evidence suggests foul play was not involved in the teenagers' disappearance and that the driver was possibly unfamiliar with his surroundings.
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Glad they're getting some answers with this one.
 
Car recovered from Oklahoma lake shows sign of wreck. (Daily Oklahoman)
ELK CITY (AP) — A Camaro connected to the 1970 disappearance of three teens that was recovered from an Oklahoma lake shows signs of an accident, while a second car connected to another case appears not to have been in a wreck, a state trooper said.
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The 1952 Chevrolet that was recovered is believed to be that which carried a Canute woman plus two men from Elk City and Sayre to their deaths. Trooper George Hoyle said it appeared that car was not in an accident.

“It most likely rolled into the water. It had no engine damage and no undercarriage damage at all. We did find a wheel well that was damage, but it was old damage.”
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more at the links

Engine fan indicates crash for Camaro; older car may have rolled in Foss. (Daily Elk Citian)
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Hoyle said he has looked into the weather the night of Nov. 20, 1970. The high temperature was recorded at 69 degrees with a low of 29. There was no record of rain, although some have said it rained the weekend before the three went missing.

"We are going to have to address how that vehicle ended up in the opposite direction," said Trooper George Hoyle. "There are a lot of things we don't know, right now."
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