2010.09.28 Levi P. Show: JonBenet Case Heats up! Tricia from WS weighs in

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RiverRat said:
If you do that, JonBenet will lose a Very Vital Person that OBVIOUSLY cares for her so much that it hurts her to not have answers she needs to satisfy her Soul...please look around and see how necessary you are before you give your final answer, KK?!
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Well, fine! It's not like I have any real life left after all these years of pounding my head against this Ramsey wall.... :banghead:
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
We're told by the FBI that what you call molestation wasn't done for the perpetrators gratification, so there's somthing wrong with your analysis there.
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KoldKase said:
"We're told by the FBI"...? I must have missed that briefing. I have never seen "the FBI" report that states that, nor any FBI statement saying it either. I'm sure you'll direct me to your source and reference, and thanks in advance. Can't wait for that one.

"...what you call molestation wasn't done for the perpetrators gratification...": just how would "the FBI" know that? They don't even know who the killer is. And since she was already molested before that night, and god only knows how many times, if not for the perv's gratification, then what was going on? Practicing for GYN exams? The paintbrush rape I agree was not for the perp's gratification. It was for covering up the sexual crimes committed against her before that night.
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Please check with SuperDave for that one. I got it from one of his posts, which seemed to be a good source at the time...
 
Linda7NJ said:
I've seen it. It's actually quite common for sexually abused children, and it's quite common for young pagent contestants, shoot, their mothers pay coaches to teach them how!
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Yes, it is one of the most damaging aspects of child abuse, sexual and physical. Not only is the child being molested, but the parent is accusing her of deserving it, bringing it on herself. Ungodly. Soul-rending for the child.

If there were an extreme tension between Patsy and JonBenet, between JonBenet and someone else, and/or within the family that night that led to things flying out of control, this would be it, IMO.
 
I'm already on it, HOTYH!

KoldKase said:
The wrist ligature was never tight enough to constrict any movement whatsover, except maybe doing jumping jacks. Also, no bruising of the wrists from struggling with ligatures means it was never struggled against, so it's a reasonable guess that it was never part of any expectation to subdue the child.

The duct tape was put on after the child drooled from her mouth down the right side of her face. She was found in rigor, with her face turned to the right, so it's a reasonable conclusion that saliva was running down her face as she lay as she was found in the basement. That means she was still, she was probably dead, and the duct tape was put on after her death. Staging, not for silencing her.
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Check and check.

Pineapple: you think she ate pineapple with a kidnapper, who stopped for a snack on the way to the car? While her parents and brother slept upstairs? And she never uttered a peep?
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Double check.

"We're told by the FBI"...? I must have missed that briefing. I have never seen "the FBI" report that states that, nor any FBI statement saying it either. I'm sure you'll direct me to your source and reference, and thanks in advance. Can't wait for that one.

"...what you call molestation wasn't done for the perpetrators gratification...": just how would "the FBI" know that? They don't even know who the killer is. And since she was already molested before that night, and god only knows how many times, if not for the perv's gratification, then what was going on? Practicing for GYN exams? The paintbrush rape I agree was not for the perp's gratification. It was for covering up the sexual crimes committed against her before that night.
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Well, to go over that ground, KK, let's go a step at a time.

1) The FBI examined the findings of the police and told them that the injury JB sustained that night (emphasis there) was not done for the perp's gratification, but was more likely another part of a staged crime scene to throw off the cops. As to how they would know that, my best guess is that they drew on their experience with cases where REAL child molesters have killed their victims and realized that JB's vaginal injury would have been far more gruesome if it had been real.

2)
And since she was already molested before that night, and god only knows how many times, if not for the perv's gratification, then what was going on? Practicing for GYN exams?
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As striking as that statement is, it helps to remember that the FBI was weighing in on the ACUTE injury--the injury from that night. They didn't comment on the CHRONIC injuries to my knowledge. That was left up to the specialists later on. The prior vaginal injuries opens up a whole new field of questions.

3)
The paintbrush rape I agree was not for the perp's gratification. It was for covering up the sexual crimes committed against her before that night.
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My personal feelings aside (and I'm inclined to agree), you're in sync with the FBI to an extent.

Hope I could help.
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
Please check with SuperDave for that one. I got it from one of his posts, which seemed to be a good source at the time...
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Okay, Super Dave, you're up! When did the FBI tell "us" that the molestation was not for sexual gratification? Did they tell you? They never told me. Should I be hurt? Nobody ever tells me nothing! :p

For clarity, let me say that IMO there were at least two separate sexual attacks: one or more before the night of the murder, which I addressed, because I think it's reasonable to at least consider it was for sexual gratification, though others do argue it was some kind of horrid hygiene practice by Patsy, or as Thomas hypothesized, from extreme "cleaning" for bed-wetting, and at any rate, as I said, no way to know without knowing who did it; again on the night of the murder, which I addressed, agreeing that it was not for sexual gratification.
 
SuperDave said:
I'm already on it, HOTYH!



Check and check.



Double check.



Well, to go over that ground, KK, let's go a step at a time.

1) The FBI examined the findings of the police and told them that the injury JB sustained that night (emphasis there) was not done for the perp's gratification, but was more likely another part of a staged crime scene to throw off the cops. As to how they would know that, my best guess is that they drew on their experience with cases where REAL child molesters have killed their victims and realized that JB's vaginal injury would have been far more gruesome if it had been real.

2)

As striking as that statement is, it helps to remember that the FBI was weighing in on the ACUTE injury--the injury from that night. They didn't comment on the CHRONIC injuries to my knowledge. That was left up to the specialists later on. The prior vaginal injuries opens up a whole new field of questions.

3)

My personal feelings aside (and I'm inclined to agree), you're in sync with the FBI to an extent.

Hope I could help.
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Why yes, you did. Looks like the FBI and I are in perfect sync. Except they never invited me to Quantico, and I'm still in a huff about that....:snooty:

If you see them, tell them they're really missing out. :dance:
 
akashana said:
I also found the flirting remark odd, but then I considered her performances at the pageants, where the little girls are coached and encouraged to play up to the judges, make "pretty eyes" and, for lack of a better word, "flirt" with them in order to make a connection and get the highest score. If you've ever watched "Toddlers & Tiaras," you will see that these youngsters are coached to do just that. I think it's likely that JBR transferred this behavior over to her personal life as well. I still find Patsy's word to be odd, however; in some ways, it's almost as if she perceived her daughter to be her rival.
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BBM: Common factors when daughters are being abused by their fathers: the mother's jealousy, considering the daughter a rival, and laying the blame on the daughter.
 
CathyR said:
Dear KoldKase,
Don't give up hope that this case will be solved. I may be joining you in that rest home before it is. Keep on praying and hoping, even if you have given up posting, that the killer of JBR is caught.
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Thank you for this, and I'll keep a chair in the day room for you. :woohoo:

Oh, don't pay my little tantrums any mind. I've had this Ramsey case crack habit so long, I'll be discussing it on my deathbed.
 
arielilane said:
Yes, I think Burke is a victim of John and Patsy.
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I agree. Whatever his part in this, whether he did nothing but survive it or was somehow involved, he was a child. He will forever be painted with the brush of suspicion because his parents handled the aftermath so badly; their conduct translated into a national scandal and mystery that will always draw stares and questions. He'll never be free of it. And last night, watching Nancy Grace, I felt very, very sorry for Burke.
 
KoldKase said:
Okay, Super Dave, you're up! When did the FBI tell "us" that the molestation was not for sexual gratification? Did they tell you? They never told me. Should I be hurt? Nobody ever tells me nothing! :p
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They told the police that. It was made public in PMPT.

For clarity, let me say that IMO there were at least two separate sexual attacks: one or more before the night of the murder, which I addressed, because I think it's reasonable to at least consider it was for sexual gratification, though others do argue it was some kind of horrid hygiene practice by Patsy, or as Thomas hypothesized, from extreme "cleaning" for bed-wetting, and at any rate, as I said, no way to know without knowing who did it; again on the night of the murder, which I addressed, agreeing that it was not for sexual gratification.
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I agree, although it's certainly true that prior vaginal injuries could have been caused for reasons other than sexual ones.
 
my_tee_mouse said:
BBM: Common factors when daughters are being abused by their fathers: the mother's jealousy, considering the daughter a rival, and laying the blame on the daughter.
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I was wondering when that would come up.
 
my_tee_mouse said:
BBM: Common factors when daughters are being abused by their fathers: the mother's jealousy, considering the daughter a rival, and laying the blame on the daughter.
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It's hard to believe, but it's so common. Other reasons the mother blames the child are: its easier to put the blame on a defenseless child because blaming the PERV means having to deal with the fact that you're married to a him and what to do about that; if it's an older sibling--the highest percentage of child molesters, believing the victim is at least part of the problem gives the older child a chance to be redeemed; if it's the victim's fault, the parent thinks it is a behavior issue which only requires parental discipline and nothing more, because bringing LE into it means extreme shame and possibly breaking up the family, not easy under any circumstances; if the PERV is the breadwinner, it's even more difficult because losing financial support can be devastating, as well.

But the hardest to fathom is when the mother gets jealous of her own daughter, who is the victim. Makes you want to puke to think about it.
 
KoldKase said:
It's hard to believe, but it's so common. Other reasons the mother blames the child are: its easier to put the blame on a defenseless child because blaming the PERV means having to deal with the fact that you're married to a him and what to do about that; if it's an older sibling--the highest percentage of child molesters, believing the victim is at least part of the problem gives the older child a chance to be redeemed; if it's the victim's fault, the parent thinks it is a behavior issue which only requires parental discipline and nothing more, because bringing LE into it means extreme shame and possibly breaking up the family, not easy under any circumstances; if the PERV is the breadwinner, it's even more difficult because losing financial support can be devastating, as well.

But the hardest to fathom is when the mother gets jealous of her own daughter, who is the victim. Makes you want to puke to think about it.
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Especially when the victim is 6 years old. But let's not forget this mother liked to portray her daughter as a sexpot. Complete with Vegas showgirl costumes.
 
KoldKase said:
I agree. Whatever his part in this, whether he did nothing but survive it or was somehow involved, he was a child. He will forever be painted with the brush of suspicion because his parents handled the aftermath so badly; their conduct translated into a national scandal and mystery that will always draw stares and questions. He'll never be free of it. And last night, watching Nancy Grace, I felt very, very sorry for Burke.
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Heyya KK.

Great posts outlining the incest dynamic,
btw,
... I read so much 'stuff', it's good to read about the heart of the matter.

Ya, I was seriously NGed out, watching the photos of BR flashing across the screen, distorting his personna? his image ..... ferocious.

The BR I discuss is frozen in time, a child, so I've always been considerate.
but adult BR has no protection, no considerations are afforded to him now.
What a life, dodging the past.
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
my bold

u r the best, DeeDee...

Things a kidnapper might do prior to moving JBR to a car:

Redress the body.
Wipe blood from the body.
Take the time to look in the dryer for a blanket that they had no way of knowing was there.
Wrap the body in a blanket.
Place favorite dolls or nightie near the [living] body.
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You cannot be serious!!!
 
Holdontoyourhat said:
Wrist ligature, duct tape, hair, pineapple are all consistent with a living captive. Keep it up you guys are doing great.



We're told by the FBI that what you call molestation wasn't done for the perpetrators gratification, so there's somthing wrong with your analysis there.
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nope,it was done THAT NIGHT as part of the staging.that's why the piece of cellulose was found inside of JB.(from the part of Patsy's missing paintbrush handle?).
but the previous injuries were said to be about 72 hrs old..about the time of the Christmas party,where,IMO,something went awry,a 911 hang-up call was placed,and Susan Stine addressed police via intercom,without ever opening the door.
the same reason JB was found crying on the stairs,saying she 'didn't feel pretty'.(IMO)

I think this comment was paraphrased in order to not reveal evidence;therefore,we know what JB described was something along those lines.
so you have to wonder,what on earth could have happened to cause JB to say she 'didn't feel pretty????'
whatever it was...it wasn't pretty.
 
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