General Discussion Thread #4

crystalgenie · Apr 12, 2013

OP is not an idiot. He can't be both an idiot and trying to save her life.

No one shoots blindly, in the dark, at a bathroom door when you have a roommate much less someone you supposedly love living with you.

Was the bathroom on the other side of the house? No. Was she killed in that bathroom? Yes.

Did she die in the bathroom? Maybe not literally but if you die in front of paramedics in a hall way, you might has well died in the bathroom.

Does the lack of urine in her bladder mean anything? Yes and No.

Someone up the thread said it could have happened at time of death. That is a big possibility, also depending on how many bullets hit her and where.

If no, it could have meant that they had already been arguing and she had been preparing for bed and already peed.

Urine doesn't clear him or make him more guilty. It is the rest of the facts.

I have never even read about OP until he involved himself in the death of his girlfriend. This just makes him another boyfriend with a dead girlfriend.

Take the fame away and it all comes down to who is the first suspect when someone ends up dead in their house.

1. Home owner

2. Significant other.

He happens to be both one and two. It doesn't look good for him. I don't care who he is or what he did prior to his girlfriend ending up dead with a gun shot in his house.

Time will tell all. If he did it, I hope he is prosecuted to the full extent of the law and if he didn't then I guess he gets to go free.

Please just hope that South Africa's legal system is not registered on celebrity like ours.

Pisto_lius · Apr 12, 2013

sorrell skye said:
Regarding the empty bladder: when a person suffers a traumatic injury that results in severe blood loss, the body goes into hypovolemic shock, which would affect organ function. The kidneys would cease urine production in an effort to sustain blood pressure.

If Reeva had emptied her bladder shortly before being shot, her kidneys would have immediately ceased urine production after being shot, due to the severe blood loss.

I have to concede that the lack of urine in her bladder could support the Defense.

However, if forensic tests show that her shorts were urine-soaked, it supports another scenario, IMO. Also, if urine was found in the abdominal cavity @ autopsy (I have no idea, since the autopsy report hasn't been released to the public), it could mean a bullet pierced her bladder (perhaps the bullet wound to her right hip?), causing its contents to be released internally.

I know it may sound gruesome to some, but I wish the AR (autopsy report) was public. In following past cases, I've learned an incredible amount from reading them.

BIB - I respectfully disagree.

If a patient has a hypovolemic shock (after being shot) the kidneys wouldn't cease urine production and much less immediately!

The kidneys decrease in the output of urine depending on the severity of the shock.

There are 4 stages of hypovolemic shock:

Stage 1 - blood volume loss up to 15% (750 ml) = urine output-normal

Stage 2 - blood volume loss up to 15–30% (750 to 1500 ml) = urine output -20 to 30 ml/hour

Stage 3 - blood volume loss up to 30–40% (1500–2000 ml) = urine output 20 ml/hour

Stage 4 - blood volume loss more than 40% (greater than 2000 ml) = urine output negligible

(By the way - I myself come from medical care)

sorrell skye · Apr 12, 2013

natsound said:
SS, my theory has been that the argument began in the bathroom. RS was on her phone texting or checking a text. OP enters and goes nuts, grabs her phone from her hands, somehow his phone lands where he throws hers down, because IIRC the phone on the mat is not the phone he used to call for help.

From that point, RS runs into the loo (shout out to Carol). A standoff ensues.

Your theory makes sense.

I think the argument began in the bedroom earlier in the night.

Reeva was shot after 3:00 a.m. IMO, 2:00 -3:00 a.m. (the timeframe a witness reportedly heard loud arguing) would be an odd time of night to be checking text messages or to be texting. I think OP had already gone nuts earlier in the night, perhaps locked the bedroom door so Reeva couldn't leave, the argument continued & escalated with perhaps OP threatening Reeva by brandishing his pistol, at which time I think she fled to the bathroom to call for help, which further enraged OP, & a struggle may have ensued over the phone because he didn't want her to call anyone - he wanted her to stay within his realm of control without any outside interference.

I think it's possible that when OP fired the first shot Reeva may have still been in the bathroom, which could explain why 2 phones were on/near the bath mat (if the 2nd phone is hers). If so, she may have either dropped the phone due to being seriously injured or he took it from her.

After she locked herself in the toilet room, with no phone, perhaps seriously wounded, I think OP realized if he didn't finish her off, there was no way he wouldn't get charged with attempted murder or aggravated assault, so he fired more rounds through the door, hoping (and succeeding) to kill her.

After that, he concocted his "intruder" story & bashed the door in with his cricket bat.

All the above is my opinion.

natsound · Apr 12, 2013

sorrell skye said:
Your theory makes sense.

I think the argument began in the bedroom earlier in the night.

Reeva was shot after 3:00 a.m. IMO, 2:00 -3:00 a.m. (the timeframe a witness reportedly heard loud arguing) wouldk be an odd time of night to be checking text messages or to be texting. I think OP had already gone nuts earlier in the night, perhaps locked the bedroom door so Reeva couldn't leave, the argument continued & escalated with perhaps OP threatening Reeva by brandishing his pistol, at which time I think she fled to the bathroom to call for help, which further enraged OP, & a struggle may have ensued over the phone because he didn't want her to call anyone - he wanted her to stay within his realm of control without any outside interference.

I think it's possible that when OP fired the first shot Reeva may have still been in the bathroom, which could explain why 2 phones were on/near the bath mat (if the 2nd phone is hers). If so, she may have either dropped the phone due to being seriously injured or he took it from her.

After she locked herself in the toilet room, with no phone, perhaps seriously wounded, I think OP realized if he didn't finish her off, there was no way he wouldn't get charged with attempted murder or aggravated assault, so he fired more rounds through the door, hoping (and succeeding) to kill her.

After that, he concocted his "intruder" story & bashed the door in with his cricket bat.

All the above is my opinion.

That is an excellent theory. But there were four bullet holes in the door of the bathroom, so I believe all shots were fired once she ran in there.
Where and when the argument began... there's just too little evidence to narrow it down.

sorrell skye · Apr 12, 2013

Pisto_lius said:
BIB - I respectfully disagree.

If a patient has a hypovolemic shock (after being shot) the kidneys wouldn't cease urine production and much less immediately!

The kidneys decrease in the output of urine depending on the severity of the shock.

There are 4 stages of hypovolemic shock:

Stage 1 - blood volume loss up to 15% (750 ml) = urine output-normal

Stage 2 - blood volume loss up to 1530% (750 to 1500 ml) = urine output 20 to 30 ml/hour

Stage 3 - blood volume loss up to 3040% (15002000 ml) = urine output 20 ml/hour

Stage 4 - blood volume loss more than 40% (greater than 2000 ml) = urine output negligible

(By the way - I myself come from medical care)

I appreciate your input Pisto!

A gunshot wound to the hip (which Reeva sustained) could have nicked or pierced a major artery (femoral artery, one of the iliac arteries), resulting in life-threatening blood loss within minutes, depending upon the damage.

Since it has been reported that she died very shortly after being shot, I suspect that her wounds resulted in immediate, severe blood loss, which would have caused her kidneys to cease urine output due to hypovolemic shock. MOO

I suppose until we have access to the AR, we won't know the COD.

Pisto_lius · Apr 12, 2013

Carol70 said:
I'm sorry but I disagree. We all know she died on that hallway floor in the presence of paramedics/a doctor.

Anyhow, for all we can speculate, Reeva hadn't even had a chance to sit down on the loo yet for a whizz when OP started screaming about intruders. So maybe, just maybe, she never got the chance to relieve herself on the loo as she intended. Just to throw another angle on the story

BIB - I respectfully disagree. As I know, Reeva was dead when paramedics arrived.

Reuters, citing an eyewitness account published in the Sunday Argus of a paramedic on the scene, said Steenkamp was already dead when he arrived.
http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20675058,00.html

And here more detailed the statement by a paramedic who was among the first on the scene:

A paramedic who was among the first on the scene after the shooting of Reeva Steenkamp said he entered Oscar Pistoriuss house and saw a womans body near the stairs, covered in blood.

The paramedic, who asked not to be named, said:

There was a lot of activity at the house. The police were moving in and out and there were private security guards outside.

When we arrived a woman, who never told us her name, met us in the driveway and showed us through the door. As soon as I walked in, I saw a womans body by the stairs and she was covered in blood. There was also a blood trail up the stairs that I could see. Oscar Pistorius, dressed in shorts and a T-shirt, was just standing there looking at the body. His right leg and arm were covered in blood.

He looked rattled, said the medic, adding that Steenkamp had been wearing a black sweat top and long pants, but no shoes.

She was lying on her back at the bottom of the stairs and we were told that she had been shot upstairs, and that Oscar had carried her down to the bottom. She had sustained a gunshot wound to her head and her right arm.

The house is really big and there was blood that had collected from her head wound on the polished floor.

The medic said they immediately got to work on an already pale Steenkamp, who wasnt breathing.

When we attached the ECG (electro-cardiogram) monitor there was no sign of life, her heart had already stopped beating.

The bullet that struck her arm had completely broken the bone.

The medic said Pistorius told them Steenkamp had stopped breathing three minutes before the ambulance arrived.

She had lost a lot of blood. I could see the trail of blood stains on the stairs.

The wounds were fatal, and there was nothing they could do for the model. She was declared dead at the scene.

When we told Pistorius there was nothing we could do to save her, he started crying.

The medic said he had not gone upstairs.

As soon as we had done the declaration of the death, the police ushered us outside, he said.
http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...of-blood-up-the-stairs-1.1471721#.UWiU86K-2So

Pisto_lius · Apr 12, 2013

natsound said:
That is an excellent theory. But there were four bullet holes in the door of the bathroom, so I believe all shots were fired once she ran in there.
Where and when the argument began... there's just too little evidence to narrow it down.

4 bullet holes in the toilet door but only 3 cartridges in front of the door....

soozieqtips · Apr 12, 2013

Pisto_lius said:
BIB - I respectfully disagree. As I know, Reeva was dead when paramedics arrived.

And here more detailed the statement by a paramedic who was among the first on the scene:

Thank you for this post. I was also under the impression that Reeva was dead when the paramedics arrived and had not died in the hallway while they were actually there. Her heart had stopped beating, she wasn't breathing, and there was nothing they could do for her. So I agree with you that she was already dead when the paramedics arrived.

Pisto_lius · Apr 12, 2013

sorrell skye said:
I appreciate your input Pisto!

BIB1 A gunshot wound to the hip (which Reeva sustained) could have nicked or pierced a major artery (femoral artery, one of the iliac arteries), resulting in life-threatening blood loss within minutes, depending upon the damage.

Since it has been reported that BIB2 she died very shortly after being shot, I suspect that her wounds resulted in immediate, severe blood loss, which would have caused her kidneys to cease urine output due to hypovolemic shock. MOO

I suppose until we have access to the AR, we won't know the COD.

BIB1 - Do you mean, the shot to the hip was lethal within minutes? Than this must be the last shot, if I understand aright.

And than the shot to her head was previously, but not lethal?

Formally apologise, but I don't think so.

BIB2 - Now she died very shortly after being shot? It was first said she died only when OP reached the entrance hall with her body.

I am sorry to say I am rather confused by all of this.

I'm really curious about the AR

MURDERER_SERVANT · Apr 13, 2013

Carol70 said:
Respectfully snipped

Actually, there has only been mention of what one witness had to say and this testimony has already been under dispute. I'm sure all the witnesses have been interviewed and we will only know when trial rolls around what was heard.

Respectfully snipped

I heard two or three witness statements I guess .Anyway.. OK. but IMO actually the witness statements just after the case ,in the heat of the murder from the neighbors are very important and significant and should not be disregarded if we really want to know what happened , rather than the witness statements months later on the trial which will higly tried to be handled and manipulated.JMO

I mean one of them are exactly lying here ? Which one ? OP or the neighbors ?

Carol70 · Apr 13, 2013

Pisto_lius said:
BIB - I respectfully disagree. As I know, Reeva was dead when paramedics arrived.

And here more detailed the statement by a paramedic who was among the first on the scene:

Sorry, I meant to put paramedics/and or a doctor as I couldn't remember and thought all would read it as such but anyway..here you go, seems like it is a little confusing as this article does not mention Stander or the doctor( who we believe is the father of this friend). I also clearly remember reading an article from a witness at the scene who said she made a gurgling noise as she died.

http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UWj3bssaySM

To quote Driveby from a previous thread as I can't find a media link right now:

He was carrying her down as security and neighbors arrived, they witnessed that. They also witnessed her breathing and making gurgling sounds which means she was alive.

#1883 thread 2.

Carol70 · Apr 13, 2013

MURDERER_SERVANT said:
Carol70 said:

Respectfully snipped

Actually, there has only been mention of what one witness had to say and this testimony has already been under dispute. I'm sure all the witnesses have been interviewed and we will only know when trial rolls around what was heard.

Respectfully snipped

I heard two or three witness statements I guess .Anyway.. OK. but IMO actually the witness statements just after the case ,in the heat of the murder from the neighbors are very important and significant and should not be disregarded if we really want to know what happened , rather than the witness statements months later on the trial which will higly tried to be handled and manipulated.JMO

I mean one of them are exactly lying here ? Which one ? OP or the neighbors ?

Click to expand...

No, I absolutely agree the witness statements should not be disregarded. The only witness statement to have been brought up so far is the one that was 600/300/50m away to have heard 6 shots and arguing between 2-3. This was disputed in court. I don't think I have come across any other statements yet???

I hope these witnesses will be called to the stand, sadly by the time trial comes around, these reports could be manipulated...the witnesses may not remember exactly anymore, or it could swing that they remember more..who knows.

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

cityslick said:
Still doesn't explain why Botha told OP's family that he should have no issue making bail.

I question everything about Botha's 'investigation' and the notion that he saw two 'blood trails' is laughable to me, considering he didn't feel the need to wear protective footwear in the crime scene, follow up on cell phone calls, etc.

It's laughable to me if it cannot be imagined that he could look into a room without stepping on blood spatter patterns. No one--not Roux, or Perumal who examined the house the next day-- has stated that Botha or any of the cops did contaminate the crime scene. Obviously preferable to have worn foot protectors but he said they were all given out by the time he arrived, and apparently a quick decision was urged on him by higher ups--they should be given any blame here, not Botha.His level of cop was needed ASAP to decide whether or not to arrest OP. He was experienced enough to look and not step in blood patterns.

Probably every case has cops or forensics people making some kind of error.

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

Carol70 said:
Any items laying on the floor could have got blood on them, he pulled her out the loo and lay her on the floor. For all we know, he could have pulled her out the loo and after making his calls, placed the phone right next to her body ensuring they would more than likely get blood on them. And as I have mentioned, blood on his hands.

Here again I give what I think is a far more plausible explanation.

The coverup affi: "I needed to bash down the door with the bat." [or words to that effect.]

Real reason, maybe he did use the bat on her earlier, and needed an excuse in the coverup to get blood on the bat in the faux door bashing!!

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

For the record a couple of things from yesterday.

The bathroom is not claimed in OP's affi to have been dark, only the bedroom.

It is OP's forensics man, Dr Perumal who said Reeva died on the stairway.

Then this link: http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-cou...of-blood-up-the-stairs-1.1471721#.UWiU86K-2So

seems to prove that Reeva's shorts that have been argued about, were definitely outer shorts not undies. This gives credence to those who have hypothesized that maybe Reeva and OP were not intimate, or not that night. As with all the loud arguing a few hours earlier, maybe it never got close to that that night.

Then this: "The medic said Pistorius told them Steenkamp had stopped breathing three minutes before the ambulance arrived."

It just seems to me what Reeva needed was immediate CPR where she lay. And if OP was genuinely concerned he would have phoned and asked for an ambulance and for instructions on CPR until they arrived.

Furthermore how does a paraplegic with a shoulder injury so bad it was claimed by Roux to have required a "medical patch" that night, carry her downstairs while she is bleeding out?

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

MURDERER_SERVANT said:
BIB
Hey Shane

That's exactly what I'm trying to say for a few days ! Why the affidavit is so absurd is because it is designed to reinforce an undefinable intruder with
' a noise in the toilet ' and at the same time cover RS's struggling in the house IMO ..

I also wonder when he phoned the brother /lawyer ? He doesn't mention that in his affidavit. But we so far know that no calls were made from the phones that the police could take that day.. So, if he called them after EM and the neighbor arrived, they would see him calling brother/lawyer possibily. Perhaps
he made second calls to them pretending that was the first call.

IMO he made those calls before he called the EM anyway..

I wonder if was that the reason that phone was not given to the police when asked .Can that be forgotten ? the only phone used.. But strangely
other/no call phone of OP were put in the crime scene .. and was given to the police.. ?????????????????????

Can those calls be deleted ? Can clean phone calls report be given ?
That wouldn't surprise me at all.

What bothers me is the intent and attempt to hide things? JMO

Good post, MS.

I am not "expert" on the phones aspect though.

I do recall that at least one phone is said to have had blood and brain matter on it.

But do you or anyone have a link on the alleged call to Netcare on one of the phones. Allegedly I guess not one that the cops took that night?

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

This link: http://www.iol.co.za/news/crime-courts/i-saw-reeva-die-1.1471707#.UWj3bssaySM

does contain the curious statement and witness quotes:

"...The neighbours have already told the police about the shouting and screaming they heard from the Pistorius home on Wednesday, and in the early hours of Thursday.

At least one set of neighbours has told the police about other days and nights when they heard commotion coming from the athlete’s home..."

Security guards were called to the house on Wednesday evening to tell the occupant that the noise was disturbing neighbours.

1st BBM: screaming heard Wednesday night, not just Thursday AM.
Again possibly giving credence that the whole evening went bad early, and there was no intimacy then.

2nd BBM: Could this be earlier bouts/arguments with Reeva? or a previous GF? or other?

3rd BBM: This then seems to prove what that Brig female cop said to the press on the 14th was about earlier that Wed. RE Reeva and domestic altercation or such.

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

Carol70 said:
Sorry I'm posting and running, just bought the lastest YOU magazine and a exclusive interview with Botha...I've tried to take a snap so you can see, I've got guests so just skimmed the article for now and will read later. For now, the cover piece and a snippet about the reopened case against him I thought interesting. If anyone wants, I wil scan on Monday at work. Hope you can see them and if they ar upside down etc, just save and rotate your side. Will catch up alters, it's a beautiful day this side of the world and we are outside cooking food.

Thanks Carol.
Everytng about Botha is upside down.

I think there's a chance all this is done, he may be acclaimed somewhat.
Afterall he arrested Op in the 2009 door slamming attack.

If that had gone to trial, as he wanted, maybe OP would have changed if he spent some time in jail, and Reeva would be alive today.

shane13 · Apr 13, 2013

Carol70 said:
I really hope this snippet is readable!

HA HA .
If I am reading it right--which is a big if as it is clipped and such--it appears that when Roux asked him if OP's affi were possible he says in this interview that he was cut off. He wanted to say, "it is possible but highly unlikely." And did not get to say that latter part of that, as Roux cut him off.
Some have made a big deal of this..

natsound · Apr 13, 2013

shane13 said:
Here again I give what I think is a far more plausible explanation.

The coverup affi: "I needed to bash down the door with the bat." [or words to that effect.]

Real reason, maybe he did use the bat on her earlier, and needed an excuse in the coverup to get blood on the bat in the faux door bashing!!

If he bashed her head in with the bat (which we have learned did not happen, but hypothetically) , an excuse probably would not work.

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