WESH: Duct Tape Info in the Document Release

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natsound said:
I hope and pray it's that simple. BTW, my six year old son was just in here with me and he saw your avatar, and he could not figure out how it was a girl's face. He thought it was a skeleton! Don't know how he got that... :rolleyes:
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He's not so far off as you think. Robyn is a 'witch hunter' from an anime series. Very perceptive little man. :)
 
Eulalie said:
Couldn't she claim that she put the duct tape on post-accident to stage a kidnapping?

I don't believe for a minute that this was an accident -- I'm just trying to figure out whether duct tape/fingerprints is overwhelming proof of premeditation...and wondering whether there might be something else in the upcoming dump as well.
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If your child died in an unexpected accident, I don't think duct-taping the child's mouth shut would come to mind under any circumstances.

Casey's demeanor in Blockbuster with Tony doesn't support an unexpected accident.

Nor does George's testimony about Casey telling him (while she held an ALIVE Caylee in her arms) that Caylee WASN'T coming home the night of June 16...

Also, IF the duct tape went over the mouth of a living Caylee, her lip movement would impact the adhesive side of the tape.

IMO
 
okiedokietoo said:
About JB going to the hospital - I'd bet and ulcer. I can't imagine dealing with a needy personality every...single...day and every time I went to see my client when I got ready to leave she said "you are coming tomorrow, right" or "when you come tomorrow" or "would you ask my parents such and such and tell me what they said tomorrow" . I know JB signed up for this but all day at office and jail every night must add up to a heck of a lot of stress
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Not much time with his wife, either. That's always stressful for a marriage.
 
gitana1 said:
Oh no, I can't stand the guy but he's not that stupid. He's known from day one that his client is guilty as sin, believe me. He just doesn't care. he sees it as a challenge, a source of money and fame. Truth doesn't fit into any equation JB is a part of, IMO.
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I completely agree. Didn’t he say he was proud to be the first Hispanic lawyer with such a high profile case? I don’t think he’ll ever let CMA take a plea, even with her prints on the duct tape. The longer it goes, the more money & publicity he rakes in.
 
I hope the duck tape has her finger prints and a strand of her hair to make it a double whammy.
 
Just to clarify so you all don't think I'm a flippin' idiot -- Obviously if she put duct tape on her live child she meant to kill her. I just was thinking that to plan for months to do it that way is extremely bizarre. Forget the technical definition of premeditation -- it just seems like there are so many other less disgusting ways to kill a defenseless baby if you've been thinking it through for months. Eek, this discussion is making me queasy.
 
Eulalie said:
Interesting. Do you think duct tape on a live Caylee points to premeditation more strongly than duct tape on an already-deceased child? I'm leaning that way.
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The duct tape went over Caylee's hair.

Casey didn't intend to EVER take it off.
 
Eulalie said:
Pardon all my questions -- your exchange has been very enlightening for me! Would the State have to prove that KC intended to kill Caylee with the duct tape? Or is the act of putting duct tape on a child's mouth horrible/dangerous enough that it is assumed that the intent is to kill?

(I "absolutely" believe KC meant to kill Caylee -- just wondering how the state may prove it). Thanks so much for your insight.
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There's no COD so I don't think they'll try to say the duct tape killed her. I think it's a piece of the puzzle. There's no reasonable explanation for it that can make it seem innocent or accidental.
 
Yes yes yes! Now - I wanna hear that her big ole fat thumb print is smack dab in the middle of that sticker!!!!!

This is going to be a slam dunk! I don't think she'll plea either. JB will try like heck to get her to though.
 
Premeditation vs. Accident

This is a myth. The legal principle of premeditation does not have an opposite of "accident." That argument is more of a push-pull between intended death or unintended death. Premeditation involves an intent to do an act (or not do an act that the person has a legal duty to perform). Premeditation does not require that the person intended that the result be death.
When we hear discussions about accident vs. premeditation it is like comparing apples to grapefruit. Premeditation is a legal term. Accident is a non-professional term to describe lack of a bad heart and possibly a perpetrator's surprise at the outcome. They didn't mean to do it. This has no bearing on whether or not there has been a crime. It might have a little bit of impact on whether or not a case is prosecuted because it may have some bearing on whether or society needs some retribution or punishment to curb that person's behavior. Premeditation with respect to the element of intent required to support findings of guilty as to a criminal act and the lay person's concept of an accident are two very VERY different concepts.
 
natsound said:
It's called smoke and mirrors. Don't worry about that man behind the curtain! (i.e. fingerprints). What about (blank blank blank)? I'm using blanks because I'm not gonna give the defense one iota of help!

But you see what I mean. Confuse the jury through exaggeration, downplaying, etc.
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yes, but the duct tape really is a damning piece of evidence. In part because it is the key that ties everything together. It physically ties KC to the body and it's dispossal, in an almost incontrovertible way. It also shows a clear malicious intent. There is no innocent explanation for duct taping a childs mouth shut, regardless of whether they are living or deceased at the time that it is done. It is such an unusual act that it pretty well kills off any accidental death defense.

And the simple fact that KC is now directly and physically tied to the remains makes it very very hard for that smoke and mirrors to work. The "she was depressed and killed herself in front of my client" defense is not gonna work for a 2 year old.
 
When will we have a document dump, think soon?
I wonder if this is what put JB in the hospital?
I would be headed there to, if I were him.
 
Jolynna said:
If your child died in an unexpected accident, I don't think duct-taping the child's mouth shut would come to mind under any circumstances.

Casey's demeanor in Blockbuster with Tony doesn't support an unexpected accident.

Nor does George's testimony about Casey telling him (while she held an ALIVE Caylee in her arms) that Caylee WASN'T coming home the night of June 16...

IMO
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I agree with you. The last, perhaps, could be explained by claiming that KC had been planning to stay over at a friend's with Caylee...but it's awfully tough to explain away her demeanor. I'm just trying to suss out what evidence in this latest document dump supports "overwhelming" evidence of premeditation.

Based on all the great information on this thread, it seems that the State can prove premeditation if they can show that duct tape was placed across the mouth of a live Caylee.

Alternately, the State may use fingerprints on the duct tape to definitively disprove KC's story, and then fill the void with their own argument that KC deliberately murdered Caylee. For the defense to counter that argument, KC would have to take the stand, which would be disastrous for the defense.

Is there any way, short of KC taking the stand, that the defense could cobble together a non-Zanny-related, alternate narrative to the State's argument for premeditation?
 
gitana1 said:
Oh no, I can't stand the guy but he's not that stupid. He's known from day one that his client is guilty as sin, believe me. He just doesn't care. he sees it as a challenge, a source of money and fame. Truth doesn't fit into any equation JB is a part of, IMO.
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Lots of opportunities to showcase his fine "lawyering skills". (Or so he hopes) :)
 
okiedokietoo said:
if there was more than one strip of duct tape found at the scene and KC's prints were on more than one piece and maybe some prints somewhere in the middle of the tape, or one long strip of tape with KC's prints not on the leading edge where you tear it off, I don't see how Defense can say someone else took the tape from the A home - KC's prints might be on one edge of the tape from the home but not spread out all through the tape (sticky side)
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i'm thinking there would be prints on both side ends of the tape. That would be necessary to apply it.
 
Eulalie said:
I agree with you. The last, perhaps, could be explained by claiming that KC had been planning to stay over at a friend's with Caylee...but it's awfully tough to explain away her demeanor. I'm just trying to suss out what evidence in this latest document dump supports "overwhelming" evidence of premeditation.

Based on all the great information on this thread, it seems that the State can prove premeditation if they can show that duct tape was placed across the mouth of a live Caylee.

Alternately, the State may use fingerprints on the duct tape to definitively disprove KC's story, and then fill the void with their own argument that KC deliberately murdered Caylee. For the defense to counter that argument, KC would have to take the stand, which would be disastrous for the defense.

Is there any way, short of KC taking the stand, that the defense could cobble together a non-Zanny-related, alternate narrative to the State's argument for premeditation?
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Not without a magic wand, imo. :)
 
faefrost said:
What is particular bad news for the defense. There is video of Dr. Baden, the husband of LB on KC's "dream team", on GVS giving a quite detailed report, complete with demonstrations, on just how wonderful duct tape is to a forensic investigation, how impossible it is to not leave meaningful evidence on its surface, and how damning it is for a defendant when duct tape is found related to a crime.

How can you defend against a piece of evidence, when all the prosecutor has to do is pop in a video of your husband clearly declarring that fingerprints on the glue side of duct tape would be unquestionable conclusive evidence of who comitted the crime?
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LOVE IT! I hope the SA DOES show him saying that!! I remember when he said it!
 
cocoamom said:
If anyone public - media included has the docs, then the public (US) can get them too!!!

WHERE'S THE MUZIKMAN???!!

We want em now!!! :woohoo:
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If the media doesn't get them ALL up right away, I will go and get my own copy. For Websleuthers only, of course... heh
 
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