Suicide vs Murder

Oh, yeah, for anyone interested, here are 2 links to a case from October of last year in which bullying lead to attempted murder (in other words, the intent to murder or cause death in a failed attempt). I don't know if there is already a thread here on this topic, but I am just posting to show that this (Phoebe's case) would not be an isolated incident. Thankfully this kid survived, but is now scarred for life, in more ways than one.

http://www.truecrimereport.com/2009/10/teens_douse_15-year-old_michae.php

http://technorati.com/lifestyle/article/michael-brewer-speaks-out/
 
Thanks, Kris. I appreciate your posts. I, too, have many questions. I agree, so far, I've seen no compelling evidence of suicide. Not to say there isn't any...it may just not be released. I, too, have a need to understand. It is a character trait that expresses itself in many ways, in my life. And...here...I don't get it, yet.

And please don't let others get under your skin, here...they may try...;)

You are too valuable a poster to lose, imo.
 
Thanks, Kris. I appreciate your posts. I, too, have many questions. I agree, so far, I've seen no compelling evidence of suicide. Not to say there isn't any...it may just not be released. I, too, have a need to understand. It is a character trait that expresses itself in many ways, in my life. And...here...I don't get it, yet.

And please don't let others get under your skin, here...they may try...;)

You are too valuable a poster to lose, imo.

The compelling evidence of suicide would be that she was found hanging, and ligature mark was found on her neck. Authorities appear to have no concerns whatsoever that it could have been something other than suicide. This happened during the day and presumably somebody would have seen something suspicious-after all there was a witness to can throwing incident. I find it highly unlikely somebody could have pulled something like this off without anyone noticing anything.
 
The compelling evidence of suicide would be that she was found hanging, and ligature mark was found on her neck. Authorities appear to have no concerns whatsoever that it could have been something other than suicide. This happened during the day and presumably somebody would have seen something suspicious-after all there was a witness to can throwing incident. I find it highly unlikely somebody could have pulled something like this off without anyone noticing anything.

jjenny...to you that may be compelling. To me, it's not. Each to their own...:)
 
Thanks, Kris. I appreciate your posts. I, too, have many questions. I agree, so far, I've seen no compelling evidence of suicide. Not to say there isn't any...it may just not be released. I, too, have a need to understand. It is a character trait that expresses itself in many ways, in my life. And...here...I don't get it, yet.

And please don't let others get under your skin, here...they may try...

You are too valuable a poster to lose, imo.

Thanks Paladine.

JJ, I don't know if you read my other posts in the second thread about Phoebe, but if you're interested, I believe it starts on page 31 or thereabouts. It further details my analysis regarding the questions I have and the possibilities surrounding her death. I will at some later time reformulate on this thread more concisely. It is rather lengthy and I will try to condense it as much as I can. For now here's the link to the other thread:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101023&page=31
 
Kris...I so look forward to your reformulation...

Please, just keep one thing in mind...remember, we can't point fingers at specific people...
 
I have to, with *great* :)) ) respect, disagree with the murder thought. If there was anything that showed that this precious child was murdered, it definitely would have shown up during autopsy and through investigation. No person would "allow" themselves to be hanged without a fight. Literally. I cannot believe that Phoebe Prince would have simply let any person take her life without fighting. Never mind the person she was, but that the simple fight to live/survive is a reaction that is done without thought.

I absolutely have no doubt that a murder would have been placed on official certificate of death. That the DA would have pursued a murder investigation. I understand the concern of possibility, but I just don't see it here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I don't mean that comment to be flip on any level. It is a tragic suicide due to emotional, physical, and verbal abuse to the max of coping with. Abuse that caused a young woman to believe she was nothing. :(

I greatly respect all opinions here. Greatly. I just want to share mine without having any person thinking that I don't regarding theirs.

imvho
 
I have to, with *great* :)) ) respect, disagree with the murder thought. If there was anything that showed that this precious child was murdered, it definitely would have shown up during autopsy and through investigation. No person would "allow" themselves to be hanged without a fight. Literally. I cannot believe that Phoebe Prince would have simply let any person take her life without fighting. Never mind the person she was, but that the simple fight to live/survive is a reaction that is done without thought.

I absolutely have no doubt that a murder would have been placed on official certificate of death. That the DA would have pursued a murder investigation. I understand the concern of possibility, but I just don't see it here. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I don't mean that comment to be flip on any level. It is a tragic suicide due to emotional, physical, and verbal abuse to the max of coping with. Abuse that caused a young woman to believe she was nothing. :(

I greatly respect all opinions here. Greatly. I just want to share mine without having any person thinking that I don't regarding theirs.

imvho
Hey, you :blowkiss: I've thought about the hanging. Boy...as Kris said, how long was the scarf? What if she wasn't hung but strangled with her scarf? And then placed as if she was hung? If there were a couple people, it doesn't take long to knock someone out. I remember, as a kid...STUPID kid...we played a game called 'passout'. We would grab each other a certain way, I won't describe it here (kids might be reading), and it would cause us to go unconscious quickly. And if there were more than 2 people against Phoebe...?

I do not know how the thorough police investigation was...and we'll likely not know too much till trial...

It may be suicide. Very well may be. Piecing it together, and seeing how it fits, will tell alot.
 
Hey, you :blowkiss: I've thought about the hanging. Boy...as Kris said, how long was the scarf? What if she wasn't hung but strangled with her scarf? And then placed as if she was hung? If there were a couple people, it doesn't take long to knock someone out. I remember, as a kid...STUPID kid...we played a game called 'passout'. We would grab each other a certain way, I won't describe it here (kids might be reading), and it would cause us to go unconscious quickly. And if there were more than 2 people against Phoebe...?

I do not know how the thorough police investigation was...and we'll likely not know too much till trial...

It may be suicide. Very well may be. Piecing it together, and seeing how it fits, will tell alot.
It ain't easy to prove a negative. So I don't think you ever will get an answer you are satisfied with.
 
Hey, you :blowkiss: I've thought about the hanging. Boy...as Kris said, how long was the scarf? What if she wasn't hung but strangled with her scarf? And then placed as if she was hung? If there were a couple people, it doesn't take long to knock someone out. I remember, as a kid...STUPID kid...we played a game called 'passout'. We would grab each other a certain way, I won't describe it here (kids might be reading), and it would cause us to go unconscious quickly. And if there were more than 2 people against Phoebe...?

I do not know how the thorough police investigation was...and we'll likely not know too much till trial...

It may be suicide. Very well may be. Piecing it together, and seeing how it fits, will tell alot.

:blowkiss: Back at you! If she was strangled first, you would see (meaning ME) a different type of pressure damage around the neck vs weight bearing from hanging. Even if she was strangled first and then a faux hanging done to hide it (seems way too complicated for a whim type of murder regarding teens), there would be two different markings on her neck as well as internal damage. Bruising after death would actually show itself. If there was any question as to the death investigation, in my opinion, it would have been documented on reports as well as death certificate. Wasn't her autopsy done outside of South Hadley? I'll have to review to remember, but I thought so. I could be way wrong. Back to way back when pages. Tomorrow. :)
 
It ain't easy to prove a negative. So I don't think you ever will get an answer you are satisfied with.
Cheer up, jjenny :)...that sounds so negative. I feel positive. I think I will be satisfied, someday. I'm not unreasonable...;)
 
ordinary life...you made a good point. The two marks on her neck, you're right...thanks for clearing that scenario up...:blowkiss:
 
It ain't easy to prove a negative. So I don't think you ever will get an answer you are satisfied with.
Cheer up, jjenny :)...that sounds so negative. I feel positive. I think I will be satisfied someday. I'm not unreasonable...;)
 
Not much time here but just had to chime in on the scarf. You would have had to read my 3rd post on this to understand that Phoebe was very short, and it wouldn't take an assailant very much to grab her by the scarf that she was already wearing (the reports were she wore it that day to school) Then tighten and pull up. The assailant would have to be behind her and it would be very difficult for her to fight back, especially if the assailant were taller and stronger...ehem... Also the ligature marks would not be as pronounced as say a telephone chord, rope, or clothesline. A scarf is much thicker and would be much harder to pinpoint a precise angle if 2 similar angles were used (one to choke, the other to hang) Also as I stated in earlier posts, Phoebe may not have actually been dead when hung by her scarf. As Paladine pointed out the "choking game" and as I learned in the USMC, it only takes seconds to "blood choke" someone. They simply pass out for up to several minutes, and may appear as if they were dead. In a panic, if death was not the intention, but rather intimidation,, the assailant may have thought she was dead, and quickly thought to hang her as if it were a suicide. In which case, bruising and ligature marks would be consistent with a suicidal hanging. Oh, and this would not be the first time something like this happened. Also as far as the coroner (and LE), I find it to be either suspicious or negligent to rule such a case as a definitive suicide, especially when not only physical threats, but actual acts of physical violence occurred just 2 hours before her death. Another point about the coroner, I thought I read somewhere that he was only and "acting" pathologist and practiced some other form of medicine. Perhaps someone here saw the same thing? Either way, he's definitely not a Dr G. or Henry Lee (just saying).
 
Not much time here but just had to chime in on the scarf. You would have had to read my 3rd post on this to understand that Phoebe was very short, and it wouldn't take an assailant very much to grab her by the scarf that she was already wearing (the reports were she wore it that day to school) Then tighten and pull up. The assailant would have to be behind her and it would be very difficult for her to fight back, especially if the assailant were taller and stronger...ehem... Also the ligature marks would not be as pronounced as say a telephone chord, rope, or clothesline. A scarf is much thicker and would be much harder to pinpoint a precise angle if 2 similar angles were used (one to choke, the other to hang) Also as I stated in earlier posts, Phoebe may not have actually been dead when hung by her scarf. As Paladine pointed out the "choking game" and as I learned in the USMC, it only takes seconds to "blood choke" someone. They simply pass out for up to several minutes, and may appear as if they were dead. In a panic, if death was not the intention, but rather intimidation,, the assailant may have thought she was dead, and quickly thought to hang her as if it were a suicide. In which case, bruising and ligature marks would be consistent with a suicidal hanging. Oh, and this would not be the first time something like this happened. Also as far as the coroner (and LE), I find it to be either suspicious or negligent to rule such a case as a definitive suicide, especially when not only physical threats, but actual acts of physical violence occurred just 2 hours before her death. Another point about the coroner, I thought I read somewhere that he was only and "acting" pathologist and practiced some other form of medicine. Perhaps someone here saw the same thing? Either way, he's definitely not a Dr G. or Henry Lee (just saying).
Yes...he was an specialist in osteopathy.

The coroner was Dr. Andrew W. Sexton. He's mentioned in this link. Time of death is estimated between 2:48 and 4:15. Why such a large window if she was found so soon? Anyone have thoughts on that? It also states she was threatened that day with "physical abuse"...

A SUBSEQUENT POST MORTEM VIEW OF HER BODY, BY THE MEDICAL EXAMINER.; DR.. ANDREW W. SEXTON, WAS CONDUCTED ON JANUARY 15TH• DR. SEXTON RULED THE CAUSE OF PHOEBE PRINCE'S DEATH WAS ASPHYXIA DUE TO HANGING AND THE MANNER OF HER DEATH WAS SUICIDE .. INVESTIGATORS HAVE SINCE ESTIMATED HER TIME OF DEATH TO BE BETWEEN 2:48 P.M. AND 4:30 P.M. ON JANUARY
FltOM INFORMATION KNOWN TO INVESTIGATORS THUS F~ IT APPEARS THAT PHOEBE'S DEATH ON JANUARY 14m FOLLOWED A TORTUOUS DAY FOR HER, IN WIDeR SHE WAS' StJBJECTED TO VERBAL HARASSMENT AND THREATENED PHYSICAL ABUSE.
http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache...eibel+statement+full&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca

Here's more on Sexton from another case that states his specialty...
An initial death certificate did not list a cause, pending further investigation. The final certificate, which came from the Holyoke office of the district medical examiner, was signed on Aug. 28 by Andrew W. Sexton, a doctor of osteopathy.
http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2008/10/medical_examiner_confirms_ware.html

Osteopathy?
Osteopathy is a form of drug-free non-invasive manual medicine that focuses on total body health by treating and strengthening the musculoskeletal framework, which includes the joints, muscles and spine. Its aim is to positively affect the body's nervous, circulatory and lymphatic systems.

This therapy is a unique holistic (whole body) approach to health care. Osteopaths do not simply concentrate on treating the problem area, but use manual techniques to balance all the systems of the body, to provide overall good health and wellbeing.

Dr. Andrew Taylor Still established the practice of Osteopathy in the late 1800s in the United States of America, with the aim of using manual 'hands on' techniques to improve circulation and correct altered biomechanics, without the use of drugs.

Osteopathy established itself in Australia in the early 1940s, and there are currently over 1100 Osteopaths practicing across the country.
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/70381.php

And then I found this...is this how osteopaths get to be medical examiners?

General Information: The mission of the National Board of Osteopathic Medical Examiners is to protect the public by providing the means to assess competencies for osteopathic medicine and related health care professions.
Candidates: Welcome to the gateway for information concerning osteopathic medical licensure, bio-medical and clinical self-assessment and clinical skills performance. The NBOME has created this web portal to provide all interested a resource location to understand and explore osteopathic medical assessment. Candidates should also refer to the Bulletin of Information which sets forth NBOME’s policies, rules and procedures and obligations binding upon all Candidates.

SCORE RELEASE INFORMATION
The following COMLEX-USA examination scores have been mailed and are available online:
* Level 1 examinations taken on or before January 19, 2010.

* Level 2-CE examinations taken on or before February 24, 2010.
* Level 2-PE examinations taken on or before February 25, 2010.
* Level 3 examinations taken on or before March 13, 2010.

The COMLEX Level 1, Level 2 CE, and Level 3 examinations report both three-digit and two-digit standard scores. The minimal passing 3-digit standard score for Level 1 and Level 2 (CE) is 400, for Level 3 is 350. The two-digit standard score is directly converted from a three-digit score such that 75 is designated as the minimum two-digit passing score. A two-digit score is NOT a percentile score or the percentage of items answered correctly.
http://www.nbome.org/candidates.asp
 
Doctor of osteopathy? And? What exactly is your point?
To get this degree, they get very similar training to an MD. Four years of school, then residency.
[ame]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathic_medicine_in_the_United_States[/ame]
 
Googling for any info on Sexton...

Dr. Andrew W. Sexton discloses financial relationship with commercial entity...if you notice the listing, many other Dr.'s disclose they have no financial relationships...and notice he has a D.O. after his name..not a even a PHD like many of the other medical examiners listed...
Andrew W. Sexton, DO - G62Endo Pharmaceuticals (Discussion of Commercial Products
or Services)
http://www.aafs.org/pdf/2009ProceedingsDenver.pdf
 
My M.D. is also a D.O. They do have to go through the same training as any M.D. does. They choose to specialize after residency. They do prescribe medications (I got them, ugh.), but also work with the being of the person as well. To receive an M.E. certificate does mean testing, etc. It does not mean the this doctor was lessor than being a D.O. Unless there has been issues in the past with this doctor, and with such a huge investigation that has followed, I think the job was followed through accordingly.

Time frame of death can only be narrowed down by body temp, info from when a person was last seen, and the temps of surrounding area when body is found. I don't see, in my opinion, anything weird about timing of death.

imvho
 
Well, ordinary life...if a DO is as good as a PHD...why get a PHD?
 

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