Long Easter Weekend Thread (Apr. 5, 6, 7, 8, & 9, 2012)

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Some drug debt collectors use bats...possible MTR likes to use hammers? JMO

TLM essentially confessed and "ratted out" MTR. IF MTR was in organized drug dealing and this was a settling of a drug debt on MTR part....this could put TLM in big danger.....but if she ratted out a sexual deviant then no so much trouble for her in prison....JMO But..I am not so sure he couldn't be BOTH. JMO

Both very good reasons for her accusing him. TLM also confessed that she was the one who used the hammer. If TLM was the one involved in organized drug dealing, she would want to cover that up. Changing it to a sexual crime does that. Likewise, accusing him of being a sexual "deviant" equals "not so much trouble for her in prison".
 
TLM didn't even seem interested in calling MR back after their first date. HE showed up at HER house a few days later wondering why she never called him again. HE was the driving force between the two of them. If she never got involved with him again, I wonder if HE would have duped some other female to grab a little girl for him or would he just go ahead and try to abduct a little girl himself by breaking into the homes he referred to in his drive-bys. HE was the persistent one. "I KNEW you were all talk." JMO

@CityCynthia
#Rafferty left his number on pizza box. She didn't call, he showed up at her house a few days later.

@AdrianMorrow
A few days later, Rafferty showed up at McClintic's house and asked why she hadn't called

@AdrianMorrow
The second time Rafferty and McClintic met, he asked her for oxy. They went, made a phonecall and picked up oxy for him, McClintic says

@RaffertyLFP
They also went to a motel in Woodstock on another. He said "he wanted to wake up next to me" said McClintic

and after all of that and everything that happened...this

@AM980_Court
McClintic about Rafferty: "He was someone I cared for. When you looked at all the good things, he was great."
 
I wonder if MR can be charge with a crime for suggesting to break into a home to kidnap someone? JMO Is this not conspiracy?
 
Re-reading some of the media articles about the polygraph test, it appears that she did confess during the test, but only gave vague details. It wasn't until 5 days later that TLM stated that MR had raped and murdered Tori.

She denied knowing anything about the abduction until she took a polygraph test May 19 and confessed, providing vague details of the abduction.

Rafferty was arrested the same day. Five days later, McClintic was interviewed for six hours, and said Rafferty raped and kicked Tori, then killed her with a hammer.

On the stand, McClintic told Derstine she believed what she was saying at the time because she had blocked the horror of what she'd done from her mind.

She also blocked the truth from her mind during the May 19 polygraph interview.

http://www.lfpress.com/news/london/raffertytrial/2012/03/22/19538096.html
 
Whether TLM's writings were just tough talk or actual fantasies of her's, this coupled with her violent past showed she had murderous sick evil thoughts and we were only privy to what she wrote in her letters and acts she admitted too, so IMO she could have had other sick fantasies she kept to herself. If MR is guilty of what he is accused, I tend to think that this whole thing was more her idea, that she was the one talking tough and talking about kidnapping and whatever else, then if MR is indeed as twisted and sick as what he appears to be, he jumped on the chance that his sick fantasy could become reality. All we have is he said she said as far as the conversations between the two of them. IMO MR might not have ever been involved in anything like this if he had not met TLM, but she might have indeed gone on to seriously harm or kill someone whether or not she ever set eyes on him. I don't believe he set out looking for some weak young drug addict who he could manipulate, if anything is was completely even and mutual decision. IMO if MR did sexually abuse Tori, they are both equally sexual predators, TLM participated by watching and being there and taking her for that specific reason. Both equally evil sick and culpable IMO.
 
He told the jury it's not their job to determine who wielded the hammer, but to decide whether Rafferty and McClintic "acted together."

"In the end it is not necessary or essential that you determine exactly who did what, for example which of the two delivered the hammer blows to the skull or who inflicted the trauma to Tori's body that lacerated her liver, broke her ribs," Gowdey said.

"When you have heard her evidence you will unquestionably be disturbed by the choices that she made with Michael Rafferty to bring this all about," Gowdey said. "I expect that her credibility will be a major issue in this case. It is because she had such a significant role in what happened that she's able to give us so much detail.

"Listen to her evidence carefully and cautiously."

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/crown-reveal-case-against-accused-tori-stafford-death-090010839.html
 
I don't have a link for this but I have just heard from a friend that Woodstock is a sea of purple balloons, ribbons and butterflies today. RIP little one.
 
Okay, I see what you're saying. I'm not sure how the tests work - whether you have to answer so many of the questions right in order to pass or what the numbers would be. Do we even know if she really passed the test? I recall TLM saying that she did, but I didn't see anything about whether they even asked Det. Smyth if she passed. My impression from the court tweets was that they continued to question her after her polygraph and that is when she finally confessed - she didn't confess during the polygraph. According to the tweets that I posted, she was still denying all involvement during the polygraph.

JMO

I don't think the Crown can push the poly results - because the poly cannot be used as evidence. Iirc though, it was stated that she passed the poly when she said MR did the killing. That was brought out and then she changed her story. I don't think the new story was submitted to poly, only the original confession where she blamed MR.

I don't think we will get any definitive answers on the poly. I would love to have the transcript on this part of the questioning though..... very interesting.

Salem
 
On the 'Victoria "Tori" Stafford' FB page some have posted pictures of the balloons and ribbons throughout Woodstock today. I would link but am on my iPod.
 
A quick reminder - please do post any pictures of Tori with her brother. I know they are adorable, but WS does not allow posting pictures of innocent minors.

Thanks,

Salem
 
~Respectfully snipped~
I personally do not believe that TLM had concerns about MR being out amongst other children. If she were truly concerned about that, then she would have run to police as soon as she got home the night of the abduction and murder. She was content to let him roam free for six weeks before she finally coughed up a confession to police. How would she have known that he would not get "bloodthirsty" (as she worded it) again? She must have had a lot of trust in him that he wouldn't do this again to another child. If she was willing to trust he would not do it again, and willing to allow him to roam free for six weeks, then I'm sorry but I don't think her confession had anything to do with helping other children to stay safe from MR. Six weeks. Six weeks she denied involvement.

I don't pick and choose what I believe of TLM's testimony from either confession. I believe only the following:

a) That TLM abducted Tori. She is the only one seen in video walking away and lead Tori to her demise. There is video evidence to support this fact.
b) That Tori was murdered (by someone) with a hammer. There is forensic evidence which supported this fact.
c) That Tori's remains were left in the middle of nowhere, hours away from her family and loved ones, in a field, where no one would hear her if she screamed. She was in garbage bags like trash. This has been proven by the officer who discovered her remains, and by the photos presented in court last week.


:twocents:

I think TLM, just like MR, denied her involvement because she is a drug user/seller and, as has been speculated about MR, she was also afraid of the police and losing her freedom. I think she initially denied her involvement for all the same reasons it has been speculated that MR did not come forward, didn't say where Tori was, did not call LE and report the crime, etc.

MR also lied to police, just like TLM did, when the police came to his house and MR said he did not know TLM very well, he had heard of the case but did not know anything about Tori, he did not know where Tori was. Those were all lies, again proven by physical/forensic evidence against him, including the biological evidence the Crown has said they will present on Tuesday. Granted, the Crown has not presented this evidence yet, but I don't think they would talk about it in their opening statement if they did not have the physical evidence to back it up.

TLM is seen on video leading Tori away. Forensic evidence (according to the Crown's opening statement) will show that Tori was in MR's car. MR is shown on video at the ATM and in the car at the Home Depot - he was driving the car.

There is solid evidence to put MR in the middle of this crime, even without TM's testimony. MR is going to have a hard time explaining this away.

Just my thoughts when looking at the big picture through the evidence (and promised evidence) presented.

The jury is required to presume innocence until proven guilty - I think the video evidence and the preliminary physical evidence of the marked up coat and the car's interior (to be explained Tuesday) are going to make the elements of this crime really start falling together and MR's defence is going to have their job cut out for them.

Salem
 
One could high deduce JG was in the courtroom, being as he is decked out in a suit and why else would he be present at the courthouse? Just hanging around? MOO See link for picture.

A tearful Tara McDonald, mother of slain eight-year-old Woodstock girl Victoria Stafford, receives a hug from partner James Goris during a break in proceedings at the trial for Michael Rafferty, the accused in her daughter's murder in London Ontario,Tuesday, March 13, 2012.

Rafferty urged her to kidnap a "young female, because the younger they were the easier they were to manipulate," McClintic recalled Rafferty as saying.

As they made their way past Oliver Stephens Public School that day, Rafferty told McClintic to prove she wasn't "all talk," she said.

"I said do what, you just want me to grab somebody?" McClintic testified through deep breaths, long pauses and tears. "He said it would be easy. '(They're) getting out of school now. All you have to do is talk about dogs or candy or something like that.'"

Rafferty had said things in the past that had bothered her too, McClintic said Tuesday, but she ignored them because she so badly wanted to have finally found a good man.

"There'd be times that he would say things. We would be driving past schools and he would make a comment like, 'it would be so easy to do this,' " McClintic told the jury.

Later as school was letting out, McClintic said Rafferty parked in a retirement home lot just down the street, and her plan was to pretend she went looking for a girl to kidnap but would come back empty-handed. But as he slowly drove past her, watching her, she decided she would find a child and walk beside them, but not go any further, she said.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/0...intic-tori-stafford-last-hours_n_1344023.html

Very interesting part; the last bolded and underlined part about MR driving past TLM and watching her to make sure she was going to follow through with his request/dare.

TLM has provided too many definite details to not be the truth. If she was lying about what actually happened, I am positive she would have been caught up in her lies, but she hasn't. The only thing that has changed in her story, that we are aware of, is who stomped and kicked Tori and who used the hammer. IMHO she could have stuck by her original story that it was MR who had done that sickening act to Tori, but she didn't. So far the evidence cannot determine who actually did those sickening things to Tori (stomping, kicking and using the hammer).

TLM is taking the blame for that now and why? Because she wants the truth to now be known, as she is the closest person to tell the truth of what really happened April 8, 2009. TLM has NO reason whatsoever to lie anymore so why would she? Evil, psychotic people are capable of telling the truth. The evidence proved so far in MR's trial backs up everything she has said during her time on the stand. I will stand by MOO I believe TLM told the story just as it happened, and why it happened. All :moo:
 
~Respectfully snipped~

I think TLM, just like MR, denied her involvement because she is a drug user/seller and as has been speculated about MR, she is was also afraid of the police and losing her freedom. I think she initially denied her involvement for all the same reasons it has been speculated that MR did not come forward, did say where Tori was, did not call LE and report the crime, etc.

MR also lied to police, just like TLM did, when the police came to his house and MR said he did not know TLM very well, he had heard of the case but did not know anything about Tori, he did know where Tori was. Those were all lies, again proven by physical/forensic evidence against him, including the biological evidence the Crown has said they will present on Tuesday. Granted, the Crown has not presented this evidence yet, but I don't think they would talk about it in their opening statement if they did not have the physical evidence to back it up.

TLM is seen on video leading Tori away. Forensic evidence (according to the Crown's opening evidence) will show that Tori was in MR's car. MR is shown on video at the ATM and in the car at the Home Depot - he was driving the car.

There is solid evidence to put MR in the middle of this crime, even without TM's testimony. MR is going to have a hard time explaining this away.

Just my thoughts when looking at the big picture through the evidence (and promised evidence) presented.

The jury is required to presume innocence until proven guilty - I think the video evidence and the preliminary physical evidence of the marked up coat and the car's interior (to be explained Tuesday) are going to make the elements of this crime really start falling together and MR's defence is going to have their job cut out for them.

Salem

:tyou::goodpost:
 
2d29gli.jpg



:rose: :rose: Victoria Elizabeth Marie Stafford :rose: :rose:

:rose: :rose: July 15, 2000 - April 8, 2009 :rose: :rose:​

Just beautiful Kamille, thank you! She certainly looks like a little princess, one name her mommy use to call her. :angel:
 
I wrote this poem during Rodney`s K4K marathon, and sent to him as he was enroute to Jasper to release his purple balloon upward to his baby girl.

Today, hearing of all the purple balloons in Woodstock that are paying tribute to this darling child, I will post the poem here (can`t find Victoria`s memorial thread):

The Kiss of a Purple Balloon

Through the mist a shadow lifts
And transcends snow-capped peaks
Onward, upward, silently
Eternity it seeks

A mountain stands in silence
The rivers slow their tune
All nature takes a moment hush
To honour a purple balloon

No clouds hinder passage
As it gently floats above
The breezes sigh in tribute
To a father's gift of love

Carried high on sunbeams
Gliding in the light
Lifting higher, endlessly
Sunshine into starlight

Over there in midnight skies
Barely out of sight
Carried on a moonbeam
Dancing in the night

From golden glints of autumn sun
To a smile from a silver moon
Blue eyes shine from a twinkling star
And a kiss meets the purple balloon


Rest in Peace darling Victoria. You will never be forgotten.
 
I wrote this poem during Rodney`s K4K marathon, and sent to him as he was enroute to Jasper to release his purple balloon upward to his baby girl.

Today, hearing of all the purple balloons in Woodstock that are paying tribute to this darling child, I will post the poem here (can`t find Victoria`s memorial thread):

The Kiss of a Purple Balloon

Through the mist a shadow lifts
And transcends snow-capped peaks
Onward, upward, silently
Eternity it seeks

A mountain stands in silence
The rivers slow their tune
All nature takes a moment hush
To honour a purple balloon

No clouds hinder passage
As it gently floats above
The breezes sigh in tribute
To a father's gift of love

Carried high on sunbeams
Gliding in the light
Lifting higher, endlessly
Sunshine into starlight

Over there in midnight skies
Barely out of sight
Carried on a moonbeam
Dancing in the night

From golden glints of autumn sun
To a smile from a silver moon
Blue eyes shine from a twinkling star
And a kiss meets the purple balloon


Rest in Peace darling Victoria. You will never be forgotten.

Wow that is such a beautiful poem SB, it gave me chills and brought tears to my eyes.

May you rest in peace precious girl and see how much you are loved not only friends and family but those who had never met you, always thinking of you sweetheart.
 
That's beautiful, SillyBilly and I bet it is a great comfort to RS. Bless you for sharing with him.

Salem
 
One could high deduce JG was in the courtroom, being as he is decked out in a suit and why else would he be present at the courthouse? Just hanging around? MOO See link for picture.

A tearful Tara McDonald, mother of slain eight-year-old Woodstock girl Victoria Stafford, receives a hug from partner James Goris during a break in proceedings at the trial for Michael Rafferty, the accused in her daughter's murder in London Ontario,Tuesday, March 13, 2012.

Rafferty urged her to kidnap a "young female, because the younger they were the easier they were to manipulate," McClintic recalled Rafferty as saying.

As they made their way past Oliver Stephens Public School that day, Rafferty told McClintic to prove she wasn't "all talk," she said.

"I said do what, you just want me to grab somebody?" McClintic testified through deep breaths, long pauses and tears. "He said it would be easy. '(They're) getting out of school now. All you have to do is talk about dogs or candy or something like that.'"

Rafferty had said things in the past that had bothered her too, McClintic said Tuesday, but she ignored them because she so badly wanted to have finally found a good man.

"There'd be times that he would say things. We would be driving past schools and he would make a comment like, 'it would be so easy to do this,' " McClintic told the jury.

Later as school was letting out, McClintic said Rafferty parked in a retirement home lot just down the street, and her plan was to pretend she went looking for a girl to kidnap but would come back empty-handed. But as he slowly drove past her, watching her, she decided she would find a child and walk beside them, but not go any further, she said.


http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2012/0...intic-tori-stafford-last-hours_n_1344023.html

Very interesting part; the last bolded and underlined part about MR driving past TLM and watching her to make sure she was going to follow through with his request/dare.

TLM has provided too many definite details to not be the truth. If she was lying about what actually happened, I am positive she would have been caught up in her lies, but she hasn't. The only thing that has changed in her story, that we are aware of, is who stomped and kicked Tori and who used the hammer. IMHO she could have stuck by her original story that it was MR who had done that sickening act to Tori, but she didn't. So far the evidence cannot determine who actually did those sickening things to Tori (stomping, kicking and using the hammer).

TLM is taking the blame for that now and why? Because she wants the truth to now be known, as she is the closest person to tell the truth of what really happened April 8, 2009. TLM has NO reason whatsoever to lie anymore so why would she? Evil, psychotic people are capable of telling the truth. The evidence proved so far in MR's trial backs up everything she has said during her time on the stand. I will stand by MOO I believe TLM told the story just as it happened, and why it happened. All :moo:

In my opinion TLM is a practiced liar ... she is as sly as a fox. And likely much more intelligent that MR....

In any case, I would think that the judge will caution the jury very carefully about relying on TLM's testimony as she is not credible, was a co-accused and had prior knowledge of the evidence in the case prior to her taking the stand. The judge's warning is called a Vetrovec warning,

Generally, a Vetrovec warning must address the following factors:
a) the evidence of certain witnesses is identified as requiring special scrutiny;
b) the characteristics of the witness that bring his or her evidence into serious question are identified;
c) the jury is cautioned that although it is entitled to act on the unconfirmed evidence of such a witness, it is dangerous to do so; and,
d) the jury is cautioned to look for other independent evidence which tends to confirm material parts of the evidence of the witness with respect to whom the warning has been given.

My understanding is that under some circumstances (especially in lengthy trials that are quite complex) the udge will give the jury "helpful direction on the question of sifting the evidence where guilt or innocence might, and probably will turn on the acceptance or rejection, belief or disbelief, of the evidence of one or more witnesses”.

IMO the jury will be cautioned not to take everything that TLM says as gospel.
 
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