**Guilty of 2 of 3 charges (hung on kidnapping)**Verdict watch

Why can't they charge her w murder? At least 2nd degree. This case I just like Casey's except we do not have a body. Hopefully they hope she will crack in jail to another inmate and then pursue those charges.

Yellow said:

Why can't they charge her w murder? At least 2nd degree. This case I just like Casey's except we do not have a body. Hopefully they hope she will crack in jail to another inmate and then pursue those charges.

Click to expand...

I have to agree with AZLawyer, they just don't have enough evidence to indict her on murder charges. If they could have found Gabriel's little body it would be a whole different ball game.

AZ - would like your opinion on this case as compared to the recent conviction of D'Andre Lane for the murder of his two year old daughter Bianca Jones. Do you think that one will be turned over on appeal? It doesn't seem they had any real direct evidence (other than the hits by the cadaver dogs, and the fiance's testimony), and yet they were able to indict and convict. Elizabeth Johnson's retracted confessions are pretty damning IMO. Can you shed some light? TYIA.

gitana1 said:

Watching how this judge treated TPS like a princess, I agree.

It appears that in our country, children are still expendable.

Click to expand...

Sadly I think that you are correct. I was so disgusted last evening when the verdict was read I took a break. Turned on Nancy Grace and she was covering a case where a father purposely body slammed his six month old baby to death. Judge gave him a sentence of 90 days. I guess babies and children have no value in the legal system.:furious:

Its really hard for me to accept that there isnt something else ej can be charged with. Is it ok in this country to just make your baby disappear and suffer no real penalty? I don't believe she gave Gabriel to strangers but how could that be legal anyway? This baby is gone forever!!

Wishbone said:

Its really hard for me to accept that there isnt something else ej can be charged with. Is it ok in this country to just make your baby disappear and suffer no real penalty? I don't believe she gave Gabriel to strangers but how could that be legal anyway? This baby is gone forever!!

Click to expand...

ITA. Does anyone know why people that make babies "disappear" can't be charged with aggravated abuse or neglect of the child? So much of EJ's trial was about Logan as victim. I am not saying he wasn't, but I don't remember a lot of talk about how Gabriel was victimized by her crimes.

iluvmua said:

I don't think so

Click to expand...

Yes, the jury did know. Pros brought it up a number of times....

It's Not the Nanny said:

I haven't followed this case very closely. Did the jury know that the baby is still missing?

Click to expand...

Yes, they did, if they listened carefully to the fact that Logan has never seen his son again after Dec 8, 2009.

PrincessSezMe said:

I have to agree with AZLawyer, they just don't have enough evidence to indict her on murder charges. If they could have found Gabriel's little body it would be a whole different ball game.

AZ - would like your opinion on this case as compared to the recent conviction of D'Andre Lane for the murder of his two year old daughter Bianca Jones. Do you think that one will be turned over on appeal? It doesn't seem they had any real direct evidence (other than the hits by the cadaver dogs, and the fiance's testimony), and yet they were able to indict and convict. Elizabeth Johnson's retracted confessions are pretty damning IMO. Can you shed some light? TYIA.

Click to expand...

AZLawyer is much more knowledgeable than I am regarding criminal law, so maybe it doesn;t mean much, but I kind of disagree about this.

First, Elizabeth coldly and spontaneously confessed. She wasn't interrogated for hours into a false confession. She made the call, made the texts and uttered the terrible words with no hint of remorse, or anger or sadness - just a cruel, yet matter of fact statement.

Second, there is no evidence that Baby Gabriel is alive, that EJ ever spoke to some mystery couple, that she ever met with such a couple, that she handed Gabriel off to another person or persons in a park or anywhere else. I kind of feel that this lack of any trace of evidence - no e-mails, no text messages, phone calls, money transfers, nothing- that Gabriel was handed off, and the lack of any trace of evidence that he remains alive, that no one, despite the notoriety of this case, has come forward to say they were given a baby, or that someone they know suddenly showed up with a baby that looks an awful lot like Gabriel - I feel that lack of evidence IS evidence.

It's true - this case would be hard to prove because despite the above, there are still people that believe Gabriel is alive. And, then we have the ever-innocent looking EJ. Butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, she looks so sweet sitting there and so pretty. I believe it would be hard to find 12 that would convict her. So, Texas hasn't tried.

But they can try. And IMO, they just might one day. Solely for the sake of trying to attain justice for this little boy.

gitana1 said:

AZLawyer is much more knowledgeable than I am regarding criminal law, so maybe it doesn;t mean much, but I kind of disagree about this.

First, Elizabeth coldly and spontaneously confessed. She wasn't interrogated for hours into a false confession. She made the call, made the texts and uttered the terrible words with no hint of remorse, or anger or sadness - just a cruel, yet matter of fact statement.

Second, there is no evidence that Baby Gabriel is alive, that EJ ever spoke to some mystery couple, that she ever met with such a couple, that she handed Gabriel off to another person or persons in a park or anywhere else. I kind of feel that this lack of any trace of evidence - no e-mails, no text messages, phone calls, money transfers, nothing- that Gabriel was handed off, and the lack of any trace of evidence that he remains alive, that no one, despite the notoriety of this case, has come forward to say they were given a baby, or that someone they know suddenly showed up with a baby that looks an awful lot like Gabriel - I feel that lack of evidence IS evidence.

It's true - this case would be hard to prove because despite the above, there are still people that believe Gabriel is alive. And, then we have the ever-innocent looking EJ. Butter wouldn't melt in her mouth, she looks so sweet sitting there and so pretty. I believe it would be hard to find 12 that would convict her. So, Texas hasn't tried.

But they can try. And IMO, they just might one day. Solely for the sake of trying to attain justice for this little boy.

Click to expand...

I would be the last person on earth to disagree with anything you've said. I feel exactly the same way. The total lack of any evidence that Gabriel is alive is proof enough to me, along with her cold and callous "confessions" to Logan McQueary, that I am absolutely convinced she killed the baby. Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way in a court of law. Caylee Anthony is a prime example of that. I felt they had a "mountain" of evidence against the evil mother, and in that case they even had the body of a dead child, and still she walked. I was somewhat surprised when D'Andre Lane was convicted. Maybe what another poster said (sorry, can't remember who now), that a man is more likely to be convicted than a woman, is true.

I hope that Texas does eventually bring her to trial, but I think they will wait until they feel they have enough evidence to do so. After all, if they try and fail she can never be tried again.

I'm praying for justice for Baby Gabriel some day. What I believe she did, without a doubt, was heartless, cruel, and reprehensible.

BetteDavisEyes said:

Mostly true, but every once in a while, a jury gets it right. D'Andre Lane was recently convicted on child abuse/homicide charges in the death of his 2-year-old daughter, Bianca Jones (Detroit).

Click to expand...

They usually only get it "right" when the defendant is black (male or female), I'm sorry to say. But there really is a whole different system of justice, statistically speaking, for black folk.

When the defendant is an attractive female, it's even more different from what a person like D'Andre faces.

There's no body in Bianca Jones' case and no confession to murder. Do I think his conviction for her murder is appropriate? Heck yeah! It's common, bloody sense!

And so would casey athony's conviction for murder have been and so would EJ's conviction for murder if she was charged.

I think we lack common sense in our system. That's the problem here. And it infuriates me.

gitana1 said:

They usually only get it "right" when the defendant is black (male or female), I'm sorry to say. But there really is a whole different system of justice, statistically speaking, for black folk.

When the defendant is an attractive female, it's even more different from what a person like D'Andre faces.

There's no body in Bianca Jones' case and no confession to murder. Do I think his conviction for her murder is appropriate? Heck yeah! It's common, bloody sense!

And so would casey athony's conviction for murder have been and so would EJ's conviction for murder if she was charged.

I think we lack common sense in our system. That's the problem here. And it infuriates me.

Click to expand...

I agree, being young, attractive, white females likely didn't hurt those two. If you think about the Sky Metalwala case, there's another mother who is young, attractive, and has yet to answer for what happened to her child.

Sad that these women so easily dispose of their children. And as long as they refuse to speak, they get away with it. :tsktsk:

I hope she gets all 9 1/2 years. At least it is something.

gitana1 said:

They usually only get it "right" when the defendant is black (male or female), I'm sorry to say. But there really is a whole different system of justice, statistically speaking, for black folk.

When the defendant is an attractive female, it's even more different from what a person like D'Andre faces.

There's no body in Bianca Jones' case and no confession to murder. Do I think his conviction for her murder is appropriate? Heck yeah! It's common, bloody sense!

And so would casey athony's conviction for murder have been and so would EJ's conviction for murder if she was charged.

I think we lack common sense in our system. That's the problem here. And it infuriates me.

Click to expand...

Kind of reminds me of Amir Jennings. His mother got 10 years for his disappearance, though surely he is not alive. But at least she was convicted for being responsible.

"Body language expert weighs in on Elizabeth Johnson's court reaction"


"If you're lying or cheating, stay away from Renate Mousseux, because she'll know. "I see if you're self assured, I see if you fake a smile," she said. We showed her Johnson's reaction in court when her verdict was being read."

The rest of the article is at:
http://www.kpho.com/story/19868754/...eighs-in-on-elizabeth-johnsons-court-reaction

I can't agree more with those of you who have commented on how being young, mildly attractive, thin, and white has helped Casey Anthony and Elizabeth Johnson, among others.
Had they been black or male or fat or old (or any combination of these things), I tend to think the juries would have gone in different directions.

I am also consistently flabbergasted by how many (white, young, attractive) women seem to get off completely or be given a slap on the wrist in these types of cases where children have disappeared. Especially very young kids like Gabriel and Caylee- sometimes it seems like a large sector of our society would fught hard or even die to protect a baby in utero but can't be bothered to protect or fight for justice for a live baby whose pretty, young, white mama probably killed it. Like some of our society values babies more before they are born. I wish we'd see the same kind of fervor in stopping and punishing child abuse and murder of toddlers and young children as we do against abortion. Live babies are being killed and mistreated by their parents left and right but do not have a large part of the US population working to help them and make child-abuse a national political issue. What I am trying to say is I wish we had something like the pro-life movement in size and strength to bring these cases to light and help stop them. I think no matter whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, you have to admit the pro-life movement is huge and I wish there was something comparable to help children and babies who are victims- like Caylee and Gabriel.

My own opinion- and of course, thankfully there are many people like us at WS who do care about these children and the fact that they aren't treated as adult victims would be.

ktgirl said:

I can't agree more with those of you who have commented on how being young, mildly attractive, thin, and white has helped Casey Anthony and Elizabeth Johnson, among others.
Had they been black or male or fat or old (or any combination of these things), I tend to think the juries would have gone in different directions.

I am also consistently flabbergasted by how many (white, young, attractive) women seem to get off completely or be given a slap on the wrist in these types of cases where children have disappeared. Especially very young kids like Gabriel and Caylee- sometimes it seems like a large sector of our society would fught hard or even die to protect a baby in utero but can't be bothered to protect or fight for justice for a live baby whose pretty, young, white mama probably killed it. Like some of our society values babies more before they are born. I wish we'd see the same kind of fervor in stopping and punishing child abuse and murder of toddlers and young children as we do against abortion. Live babies are being killed and mistreated by their parents left and right but do not have a large part of the US population working to help them and make child-abuse a national political issue. What I am trying to say is I wish we had something like the pro-life movement in size and strength to bring these cases to light and help stop them. I think no matter whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, you have to admit the pro-life movement is huge and I wish there was something comparable to help children and babies who are victims- like Caylee and Gabriel.

My own opinion- and of course, thankfully there are many people like us at WS who do care about these children and the fact that they aren't treated as adult victims would be.

Click to expand...

I agree. It sometimes seems that once babies are born, society forgets about them.

It shouldn't matter that casey or elizabeth are white or young or attractive. It should matter that the children in their care were dependent, helpless, wholly innocent babies. If society won't protect babies like these with stiff sentences for the parents who abuse and murder them, how much can they actually matter to that same society?

I think "race" is irrelevant (sorry, Gitana). Elizabeth could have been GREEN and shown her visa, from Mars!

Tammy Smith *may* have been white, but "attractive," is largely subjective. STILL, the judge was just shy of letting Tammy and Jack get away with murder. Tammy's sentence was a joke. Everyone here knows it.

In this trial, there was the same prosecution team---yep, the same team you all acknowledged as idiots and incompetetant. AND THEY ARE!!! Gabriel deserved much better.....from start to finish. Tammy and Elizabeth stole him.

I expected very little of the prosecution so I had low standards. The team delivered. An absolute ZERO. Stuttering, stammering, losing witnesses.

There is no sentence worthy of Elizabeth Johnson's actions.

SORRY if it offends here, but Logan was remiss in not being around for Tammy's trial. It seems he would have learned the next time....but his absence from the verdict and pleadings? Almost unforgivable. He leaned on his dad....what????

He IS Gabriel's voice. Where was he when the jury returned??

ktgirl said:

I can't agree more with those of you who have commented on how being young, mildly attractive, thin, and white has helped Casey Anthony and Elizabeth Johnson, among others.
Had they been black or male or fat or old (or any combination of these things), I tend to think the juries would have gone in different directions.

I am also consistently flabbergasted by how many (white, young, attractive) women seem to get off completely or be given a slap on the wrist in these types of cases where children have disappeared. Especially very young kids like Gabriel and Caylee- sometimes it seems like a large sector of our society would fught hard or even die to protect a baby in utero but can't be bothered to protect or fight for justice for a live baby whose pretty, young, white mama probably killed it. Like some of our society values babies more before they are born. I wish we'd see the same kind of fervor in stopping and punishing child abuse and murder of toddlers and young children as we do against abortion. Live babies are being killed and mistreated by their parents left and right but do not have a large part of the US population working to help them and make child-abuse a national political issue. What I am trying to say is I wish we had something like the pro-life movement in size and strength to bring these cases to light and help stop them. I think no matter whether you're pro-choice or pro-life, you have to admit the pro-life movement is huge and I wish there was something comparable to help children and babies who are victims- like Caylee and Gabriel.

My own opinion- and of course, thankfully there are many people like us at WS who do care about these children and the fact that they aren't treated as adult victims would be.

Click to expand...

I think pro-life people are beyond appalled when any child is murdered. What exactly would you have people do, that isn't being done? Mistreating and/or killing a born child is already clearly against the law. Lynch mob? Threaten jury members? I'm just curious to know exactly what you have in mind.

Reading these with interest, I wanted to comment on something I have not heard discussed. I think a large part of why criminals are not prosecuted vigorously, is because there is not room in all of the jails and prisons to house them. When you look at not only the amount of crimes, but the spike in the violence and outrageous types of them, it appears to me that society needs to take a harder look at just what is causing them to occur in the first place. And that's a discussion not relevant here.

southern_comfort said:

I think pro-life people are beyond appalled when any child is murdered. What exactly would you have people do, that isn't being done? Mistreating and/or killing a born child is already clearly against the law. Lynch mob? Threaten jury members? I'm just curious to know exactly what you have in mind.

Click to expand...

BBM.

Hmmm. I'm not sure why you went to those possibilities. What does the pro-life movement do? Well, it seeks political change, elected officials who care about the issue, changes in law and increased awareness about abortion and options. It lobbies, raises funds, organizes protests, etc. And it has had a huge effect. There is a ton of money and power linked to the movement.

But, there doesn't exist the same political movement or organized national outrage about child abuse and murder as there exists about abortion. I think that's the point. Why isn't the fight against child abuse and child murder as well-funded and well-organized as the pro-life movement?

At least I think that's the point ktgirl was making but I don't want to put words in her mouth.


Let me say that I have studied the rights of children and child abuse in American history from a legal perspective. Children really have been considered chattel for most of that history. Today, they have many more rights but the vestiges of the parental "property right" to one's children continue to impact our society culturally and legally.

Thus, people who beat their own child to death receive far lighter sentences than a non-relative who does the same thing. There is a huge amount of horror and panic about stranger abductions and murders, and rightly so, yet the amount of children who die at the hands of their parents due to abuse is incredibly, vastly, exponentially higher. It's so much higher there is no comparison. Yet, the same amount of horror and panic about child abuse as there exists for stranger abduction is simply not there.

I think the point here is that the rights of the child to have justice do not seem as important culturally or politically as the rights of the unborn child or even as the rights of the defendant.

Look at Juliette Guerts' case. Then we have casey anthony and this one and countless others.

My point earlier was that when the defendant is white or young and white, their rights become even more important than the rights of the dead child. I added to that above, staying that historically, if the defendant is the victim's parent, the rights of the child become even less important than their own.

But actually, it kind of seems that any defendant's rights are considered more than those of the children who have been abused or murdered.

In fact, it even applies to strangers or non-relations who abuse children. Think about all those molesters let out of prison to molest or kill again. Think about Sandusky. His colleague actually saw him raping a ten year old boy and nothing was done.

Again, I may be putting words into ktgirl's mouth but I agree that we need as much organized outrage and political pressure when it comes to children already born as there is for children not yet out of the womb. Regardless of how a person feels about abortion. Because that's not what this is about. We need to fight harder and stronger for the rights of these kids. For better laws, better judges, better awareness, more societal horror so that juries are compelled to do the right thing, rather than feel sorry for the defendant, etc. Because what has happened in these cases is certainly outrageous. There should be protests and serious anger and there's not really much of either. And to me, that's going to lead to some other narcissistic monster thinking she can do away with her kid and get off scott free.