Discussion: Is TH responsible for Kyron's disappearance? #2(POLL ADDED)

Clint Van Sandt is the profiler, brb with link.

ETA: Link with thanks to you BeanE!

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/38444970#38444970

I dont think that LE is missing anything. I dont think there is a base that hasnt been covered. TH, DY, and KH are not in custody but have not been cleared. Neither has anyone else.

21merc7 said:

Clint Van Sandt is the profiler, brb with link.

ETA: Link with thanks to you BeanE!

http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/26184891/vp/38444970#38444970

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Thank you so much. lol. I could picture him clearly but his name just would not come to me.

SurfieTX said:

I feel she was involved.

I'm going to have to go with Occam on this one. The theory with the simplest explanation/fewest new assumptions is usually the correct one.

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I feel she was involved, too, but I had never looked at it this way. There are lots of reports, confirmed and unconfirmed, about what went on the day Kyron went missing and after, all of them point to Terri's guilt but only one report (Terri is not a POI or a suspect) points to her innocence.

Report: Terri was the last person to be seen with Kyron and the last time he was seen was with her.
Assumption: An unseen person was the last person with Kyron.

Report: Terri failed two LDT's and walked out of another.
Assumption: She had some reason other than lying for failing the LDT's.

Report: Terri's cell phone pinged near Sauvie Island, though she claimed to be elsewhere.
Assumption: These pings are erroneous.

Report: Terri claimed to need the truck that day to pick up Kyron's project, but she did not pick it up after all.
Assumption: She did not claim that, she was confused, or she had a good reason for changing her plan.

Report: Kyron's teacher and others believed Kyron had an appointment on June 4th.
Assumption: The teacher misunderstood what Terri told her.

Report: Terri did not contest the R.O. or the divorce and has not fought for custody or visitation with her daughter. She has taken no step that would mean she'd have to speak under oath. She is not speaking to LE.
Assumption: She is afraid of being railroaded by LE.


Well, anyway, on and on. But what I don't see in this case are reports of anyone seeing Terri exiting the schoolgrounds alone, Terri shopping and running errands, Terri mentioning her daughter's earache at the time, someone actually seeing Terri at the gym on June 4th, Terri clearing up her timeline for June 4th, Kyron indeed having an appointment for a later Friday, Kyron with someone else after being seen with Terri, etc.

That we haven't seen reports of any of these things doesn't mean they didn't happen, but why would nothing concrete that has come out point away from Terri?

New1 said:

I just can't see Terri Horman NOT being involved in Kyron's disappearance. First of all, she lied about where she was in the hours she was unaccounted for. Her cell phone pings do not support where she said she was. Her story about driving around on rural roads to quiet her daughter because she had an earache is outrageous. Who does that? Her cell phone pings place her on Suavie Island at some point that morning, don't they? She tried to hire a hit man to kill her husband. LE does not believe her story and I have to believe they know way more than we do. Why lie if you have nothing to hide? Lying is the first sign of guilt in my opinion. It may not be guilt in Kyron's disappearance, but it's guilt about something. Sexting and sending sexual explicit photos of herself to a high school friend of her husband's while Kyron is missing. Who does THAT while looking for a missing child? Why tell the teacher (across a crowded gym) that Kyron has a doctor's appointment then say she meant the following Friday? A full week before the appointment, wouldn't there have been a better time to tell the teacher about the appointment? There is just too much circumstantial evidence for me to overlook and believe that Terri was not involved.

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BBM: When my son was an infant I took him for long drives when he was crying/in pain. Mostly for me, and not for him. Sitting at home with a crying baby gets old/depressing REAL quick. For me, driving with him was a way to keep my sanity, and in the process calm him down. So this is very plausible for me.

Secondly, has LE said they don't believe her? We have to INTERPRET everything said to us through our own lenses, which we do with intelligence and rationality...but until they say "TH is a liar and we don't believe her" then maybe we shouldn't go that far.

Orange:When did she send the pictures? After her husband left her? (IDK...that is an important assumption to my next statement). IF she is innocent then she (IMO) had hit rock bottom and may have accepted comfort whereever she could (even in unhealthy ways).

Green: I thought that this had been 'busted' that she didn't yell across a crowded gym at any point? Could someone help me out here?


My point is that we can interpret things in multiple ways but there may be a 'less guilty' explanation. While TH may very well be guilty, I agree with another poster who stated something along the lines of "right now everything she does is going to point to guilt because we want her to be guilty".

PS when my BROTHER died, I was cold to my family and I had angry outbursts. I was (of course) not guilty for his death, but the pain was so much that that was the way it manifested itself for me (I was also an immature teenager-but that is a story for another day). IF TH was not emotionally mature, being 'cold' might have been a way for her grief AND survivors guilt to manifest itself.

IDK just another way to look at things.

MOO MOO MOO...I moo but don't call me a cow

My thoughts on this continue to be that we have no idea what LE has for possible evidence or what information is leading them in this direction. Yes we hear about cases where LE was wrong. I have confidence that with the FBI involved in this case that Law Enforcement is on the right path.

I am not naive there have been cases where they were wrong. But the FBI is not an organization to take lightly. If the direction is steered in this direction there is a big reason, and it has little to do with the intuitions of the bio-parents. That may be backing up their profiling, but there has to be more.

IMO It has to do with evidence that has been collected by the FBI and LE. We just don't know what that evidence is yet.

STEADFAST said:

I feel she was involved, too, but I had never looked at it this way. There are lots of reports, confirmed and unconfirmed, about what went on the day Kyron went missing and after, all of them point to Terri's guilt but only one report (Terri is not a POI or a suspect) points to her innocence.

Report: Terri was the last person to be seen with Kyron and the last time he was seen was with her.
Assumption: An unseen person was the last person with Kyron.

Report: Terri failed two LDT's and walked out of another.
Assumption: She had some reason other than lying for failing the LDT's.

Report: Terri's cell phone pinged near Sauvie Island, though she claimed to be elsewhere.
Assumption: These pings are erroneous.

Report: Terri claimed to need the truck that day to pick up Kyron's project, but she did not pick it up after all.
Assumption: She did not claim that, she was confused, or she had a good reason for changing her plan.

Report: Kyron's teacher and others believed Kyron had an appointment on June 4th.
Assumption: The teacher misunderstood what Terri told her.

Report: Terri did not contest the R.O. or the divorce and has not fought for custody or visitation with her daughter. She has taken no step that would mean she'd have to speak under oath. She is not speaking to LE.
Assumption: She is afraid of being railroaded by LE.


Well, anyway, on and on. But what I don't see in this case are reports of anyone seeing Terri exiting the schoolgrounds alone, Terri shopping and running errands, Terri mentioning her daughter's earache at the time, someone actually seeing Terri at the gym on June 4th, Terri clearing up her timeline for June 4th, Kyron indeed having an appointment for a later Friday, Kyron with someone else after being seen with Terri, etc.

That we haven't seen reports of any of these things doesn't mean they didn't happen, but why would nothing concrete that has come out point away from Terri?

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BBM: I could be wrong here, but wasn't there a sighting by a schoolmate in which Kyron told him he was going to see the electric display? Has that one been discounted?

Did LE say that TH failed the ldt's? From my understanding TH told DY/KH that that is what had happened (but she is a compulsive liar according to them) so why would we believe that she was honest about this? What if she had to take multiple tests because they wanted to ask follow up questions and she walked out of one b/c of 'righteous anger' (if she is innocent) if they were asking her questions like "did you throw him in a lake?" "did you hit him with a rake" (felt like dr. seus so decided to rhyme)...and she was like "ENOUGH...I love Kyron and didn't hurt him" and walked out. That would certainly put a new spin on things.

OR it could be that DY and KH in their need for TH to be guilt misinterpreted what TH was saying and took "yeah, I walked out on the second one and have to take a third" to mean that TH was lying on the first...

IDK just throwing out some different ideas...maybe something will stick, not likely..but possible.

goatman said:

Green: I thought that this had been 'busted' that she didn't yell across a crowded gym at any point? Could someone help me out here?

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In the Mythbusters thread, which is in the Reference Forum:

BeanE said:

Myth: Terri called across the gym in the school that Kyron had an appointment on the morning of Kyron's disappearance.

This internet rumor was started by an anonymous person who left a comment on a news article.

Bust: There has never been any information come out to substantiate that Terri was ever even in the gym.

The only information that has come out about the appointment, does not include any references to being in the gym, or calling out across the gym, and in fact the information is that Terri told the teacher about the appointment the day before Kyron's disappearance.

links in the post...

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BeanE said:

In the Mythbusters thread, which is in the Reference Forum:

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Thank you button wasn't enough!

I am defintely waiting for evidence from LE, rather than from the family and the so-called sources. I have not seen anything official that makes me believe she is guilty, lots of unofficial things such as behavior, etc. but not a thing that would hold up in court as yet.

goatman said:

BBM: I could be wrong here, but wasn't there a sighting by a schoolmate in which Kyron told him he was going to see the electric display? Has that one been discounted?

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Yes, the little classmate TP, who also reported seeing Terri leave the school without Kyron. It's an MSM report, not a rumor.

BeanE said:

Here's what TP said. These are my own transcriptions, because I've seen a lot of inaccuracies in the transcriptions in news articles and on the net. I only trust myself for video transcriptions. Your mileage may vary.

Video 1:

- I went downstairs, and that was the last time I saw him and I never did see him after that.

- And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Miss Porter's like it's alright calm down, calm down she's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she's like alright I'm gonna leave and she left.

Video 2 (reporter says TP saw Kyron around 8:45):

- And he walked by the hallway and I'm like, Hi, Kyron, and he's like, Hi. I'm gonna go see this cool one. Electric one. And I'm like, Alright, bye. And that's the last time I saw him. He never did make it back to class.

Video 1: http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/in...-of-kyron-horman/2091168039/?icid=VIDURVNWS08

Video 2: http://www.kptv.com/video/23842579/index.html

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goatman said:

Did LE say that TH failed the ldt's? From my understanding TH told DY/KH that that is what had happened (but she is a compulsive liar according to them) so why would we believe that she was honest about this? What if she had to take multiple tests because they wanted to ask follow up questions and she walked out of one b/c of 'righteous anger' (if she is innocent) if they were asking her questions like "did you throw him in a lake?" "did you hit him with a rake" (felt like dr. seus so decided to rhyme)...and she was like "ENOUGH...I love Kyron and didn't hurt him" and walked out. That would certainly put a new spin on things.

OR it could be that DY and KH in their need for TH to be guilt misinterpreted what TH was saying and took "yeah, I walked out on the second one and have to take a third" to mean that TH was lying on the first...

IDK just throwing out some different ideas...maybe something will stick, not likely..but possible.

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No, LE has never commented on Terri's LDTs. The only persons I was able to find in reports when I researched the articles a few days ago who'd said she failed them were K&D.

Personally, I'm wondering if she had inconclusives, which are not failures, and don't indicate lying. Many people misinterpret inconclusive LDTs as failed LDTs or as indication of lying. Terri may have misunderstood this herself, and been understandably upset. Inconclusive would account for her going back for re-test. (If they were indeed re-tests, rather than additional questions, as they may have been.)

cluciano63 said:

I am defintely waiting for evidence from LE, rather than from the family and the so-called sources. I have not seen anything official that makes me believe she is guilty, lots of unofficial things such as behavior, etc. but not a thing that would hold up in court as yet.

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Coming from a family of LE I agree but my gut says something different.We have to ride it out and wait.I have said this before that I will never give up on him coming home alive.I so want him to be home safe.

BeanE said:

Yes, the little classmate TP, who also reported seeing Terri leave the school without Kyron. It's an MSM report, not a rumor.






No, LE has never commented on Terri's LDTs. The only persons I was able to find in reports when I researched the articles a few days ago who'd said she failed them were K&D.

Personally, I'm wondering if she had inconclusives, which are not failures, and don't indicate lying. Many people misinterpret inconclusive LDTs as failed LDTs or as indication of lying. Terri may have misunderstood this herself, and been understandably upset. Inconclusive would account for her going back for re-test. (If they were indeed re-tests, rather than additional questions, as they may have been.)

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I'm also wondering if Terri's alibi sounded flimsy and LE lied to her about her LDT being inconclusive. It's entirely possible she passed and LE used the LDT as a "tool" to elicit more information from her, IMHO.

cypress said:

I'm also wondering if Terri's alibi sounded flimsy and LE lied to her about her LDT being inconclusive. It's entirely possible she passed and LE used the LDT as a "tool" to elicit more information from her, IMHO.

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She WAS the last person that we know of to have seen him...it also appears that they have no hard evidence to suggest any thing...I think it's a no brainer that LE did everything they could to 'crack' her, including exaggeration and lying.

That's not to mean I absolutley think that they lied to her about the results of her poly, but I do think there is a strong likelihood that what you suggest could be the case.

And as with everything else we've seen there are reasonable possibilities for and against Terri.

I'd like to think this will change, but I don't think we are going to know for sure until this is on courTV.

BringKyronHome said:

She WAS the last person that we know of to have seen him...it also appears that they have no hard evidence to suggest any thing...I think it's a no brainer that LE did everything they could to 'crack' her, including exaggeration and lying.

That's not to mean I absolutley think that they lied to her about the results of her poly, but I do think there is a strong likelihood that what you suggest could be the case.

And as with everything else we've seen there are reasonable possibilities for and against Terri.

I'd like to think this will change, but I don't think we are going to know for sure until this is on courTV.

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BBM: She wasn't though...not until TP is discounted. HE was, and he sure isn't guilty. So, maybe being the last one to him isn't necessary the "AH HA" moment we are looking for.

PS was his backpack left in the classroom? I believe I remember reading that.

Originally Posted by BeanE
Here's what TP said. These are my own transcriptions, because I've seen a lot of inaccuracies in the transcriptions in news articles and on the net. I only trust myself for video transcriptions. Your mileage may vary.

Video 1:

- I went downstairs, and that was the last time I saw him and I never did see him after that.

- And she was like 'oh no where's Kyron there's only five' and Miss Porter's like it's alright calm down, calm down she's probably in the bathroom or getting a drink of water and she's like alright I'm gonna leave and she left.

Video 2 (reporter says TP saw Kyron around 8:45):

- And he walked by the hallway and I'm like, Hi, Kyron, and he's like, Hi. I'm gonna go see this cool one. Electric one. And I'm like, Alright, bye. And that's the last time I saw him. He never did make it back to class.

Video 1: http://video.aol.ca/video-detail/int...id=VIDURVNWS08

Video 2: http://www.kptv.com/video/23842579/index.html

BringKyronHome said:

She WAS the last person that we know of to have seen him...it also appears that they have no hard evidence to suggest any thing...I think it's a no brainer that LE did everything they could to 'crack' her, including exaggeration and lying.
.

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Snipped and bolded by me...

I agree wholeheartedly. If Terri was told she failed the LDT, with Desiree already suspecting her, I can imagine that she would be in a panic and very vocal about everything. If she's innocent, and being told she failed a LDT and Desiree is suspecting her, what should she do? How should she act? She was vocal at first and then distant later. This is reasonable, even predictable behavior, IMHO, of someone who is innocent and not being believed. If she is a sociopath with NPD, I believe she'd have handled it with more finesse. As it stands, I believe she's a troubled woman innocent of this crime.

The leaked reports indicate Terri only failed a portion of her LDT related to the case. If she's responsible, she would've failed more than a portion, as I strongly believe only one person is involved (either a pedophile or Terri). It makes more sense to me that Terri either lied about where she was for a portion of the morning because she was engaged in some illegal or untoward behavior or she knew her alibi sounded flimsy, or LE believed her initial alibi sounded flimsy and lied about her failing that portion of her poly in an effort to gain more information. It is legal for LE to lie about the poly. My third scenario falls in line with BeanE's that Terri didn't fail but showed inconclusive, and LE stretched the truth in an effort to gain information.

Forgive a few beats of this digression. For a specific reason I read every book on Mary Surratt I could get my hands on. She was the first woman hanged in US is association with the assasination of President Lincoln. While certain events in her life appeared unremarkable at best, during the trial they set up like dominos that led to her death. It is my belief she was innocent and truly a victim of circumstance.

What appears to be just normal events in an ordinary woman's life, TMH has become the focal point of Kyron's disappearence. Her behavior to most of us is beyond odd and sometimes offensive. We are in the cheap seats left with no evidence, rampid speculation and rumor. Personally, all I need is the truth.

Am praying to God for the truth. Am praying to God that Kyron is found. Am praying to God that we as a nation finally bond together and realize our most precious resource is our children and we legislate that truth accordingly.

If TMH's actions or associations were accountable in any way for Kyron's disappearance I pray the courts prosecute her to the fullest extent of the law. If she is blameless/innocent in this matter I pray she blessed with the ability to forgive.

No matter the outcome this event is beyond tragic on many levels.

Where are you angel?

At the June 18 press conference, Jason Gates said that Terri is "the last known person to have seen Kyron before he disappeared," and LE has not modified that statement at any time afterwards.

It's only an assumption that TP saw Kyron after Kyron was last seen with Terri.

Terri as the last "known" person to see Kyron is still questionable, since she wasn't seen leaving with Kyron and apparently the video surveillance at the stores do not show her with Kyron (or she would be arrested by now?)...

STEADFAST said:

At the June 18 press conference, Jason Gates said that Terri is "the last known person to have seen Kyron before he disappeared," and LE has not modified that statement at any time afterwards.

It's only an assumption that TP saw Kyron after Kyron was last seen with Terri.

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IMO, would LE risk publically stating that a minor was the last known person to have seen Kyron? Could that potentially put the minor in "danger" if he potentially saw more?

IMO, it does not state TH was the "last known person to see Kyron" but "before he disappeared"