Clever or Lucky?

madeleine said:

If it was an intruder the Ramsey's behaviour is strange which makes me believe that at least JR has some ideas on who it was and why.If so did he tell PR?Maybe yes,maybe NOT.





Yes.But it seems that everything else is kinda dismissed because "she wrote the note".And to me,even IF she did,I still don't think it was her who killed JB.

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Thanks. You make very valid points. For some reason I have believed that you were IDI (meaning, unknown intruder).

No, I guess an unknown one (meaning pedo,sadistic killer,serial,etc) would have done it again and he/they knew the house&family habits too well.IMO if IDI it was no stranger,he's in those files somewhere.

madeleine said:

She didn't have a clue?
You always assume that she wrote the RN,that automatically involves her in the murder or cover-up.What if it wasn't so.You really underestimate JR sometimes.
And re them pointing fingers at Fleet,Santa,LHP(I already know that they did that).That's not what I was saying but because you can't stand different views you probably don't even read carefully what others have to say even if they say things you normaly would agree with cause they point to RDI.They pointed fingers here and there,maybe just for the show.But that's what IS weird.
I never felt they REALLY suspected THOSE people.If they ever suspected someone(REALLY suspected) it wasn't FW or Santa,whatever.

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Ummm excuse me, why are you attacking me & making assumptions about me? The topic isn't about me.

Who knew what stairs she comes down every morning.
Who told her immediately to call LE.

I don't care how crazy this sounds but if RDI I think she was set up and fooled from A-Z.That's why I said on the other thread that one was clever and one was lucky if RDI.Clever for being such a manipulative liar and she was lucky for not knowing the whole horrible truth.There ya go.

Linda7NJ said:

Ummm excuse me, why are you attacking me & making assumptions about me? The topic isn't about me.

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Nor is it about what you think I think.

madeleine said:

So you would find her guilty of staging then?What about murder?
Why stage if you're innocent?Let's see....because you love your husband,because you wanna protect your other kid who did something bad,because someone tricked you into it or lied to you,there's more.
Did John have anything to do with her actual death?How do you know it was her and not him,I will ask this until I drop dead.And you accuse me of pointing fingers at him based on what I THINK I know?Isn't this what you're doing as well?And I am talking about the killing not the staging.Pls feel free to prove that it was her and not him or one of the other sons.If you THINK I am wrong and you are always right.

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Why are you so angry? I think your scenario is possible, it's just not MY theory.....I reached a different conclusion but you made some very interesting points, and yes I will consider them....I'm not promising that I will adopt them as my own.

madeleine said:

Nor is it about what you think I think.

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The forum's purpose is to share and discuss everyone's opinions.

Linda7NJ said:

Why are you so angry? I think your scenario is possible, it's just not MY theory.....I reached a different conclusion but you made some very interesting points, and yes I will consider them....I'm not promising that I will adopt them as my own.

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Okay look I am sorry,I overreacted.:truce:
I think I misunderstood one of your earlier posts.Can we start over.

madeleine said:

Okay look I am sorry,I overreacted.:truce:
I think I misunderstood one of your earlier posts.Can we start over.

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Absolutely

I have IDI thoughts because LE failed to prove that RDI and maybe their biggest mistake was to focus on PDI and kinda forget about the rest of the family.Look how easy they exonerated Burke and the other son and how soon ST gave JR a pass.It was a mistake IMO cause the RDI evidence doesn't tell us which one it was and who did what.

When it comes to my RDI feelings,it could have been any of them because nothing really tells me which one it was and then I turn to my gut instinct which tells me it wasn't her.Not only that,their behaviour when they are together,what they say about the investigation,PR always seems clueless and I believe she was.JR seems excited like a little boy when talking about it,she seems tired and frustrated and wants to be left alone.The placement of the note,the way the body was found,the sexual assault,the possible prior abuse,their personal history(affairs,divorce,losing one daughter),the shower that morning.


If IDI,maybe it wasn't about JB after all (the note,not even mentioning her name,the threats).If it was about hating the family ,it was about hating JR,not JB or Patsy.If a Ramsey has a clue (explains why they never really searched for the killer) then I bet it wasn't PR who suspected the who and the why.

If RDI then maybe the unknown DNA explains the presence of an accomplice (help).I doubt that it was her who knew such type of people.(maybe Access G.security,maybe ex military pals-where are those phone records?)

The investigators were hired for his defense but for the sake of the show he hired lawyers for her as well.You know,sometimes I feel that JR's best "friend" was ST. "YOU WEREN'T EVEN THERE." Wasn't this an excellent defense for JR?The cop who "hated" them so much stating on national TV that JR is innocent and has no clue??That was brilliant if you think about it.

Another thing,it's been said that while waiting for the kidnappers to call they never stood together comforting and supporting each other.Some see this as sign of guilt,like they did something bad together.I see it as one hiding and not being able to face the other.Maybe he wasn't eager to "find" the body because he was afraid of LE but was afraid of HER reaction (is this was FW knows and was ticked off by?JR not telling PR the truth?why did PW tell PR she doesn't know some things?)
Who was it more convenient for that the friends were called over?How nice that she had someone ELSE to comfort her and be present when the body is found.

madeleine said:

Why is it that the bed-wetting PDI theory is more credible than the JDI sex game theory anyway?Your experts say there is evidence of prior abuse.Where's the evidence that JB wet the bed that night and PR bashed her head because of it?
What's more likely,people killing their kids over a bed-wetting problem or over a sex related issue,you tell me.


We have murder,sexual assault and possibly prior abuse.
What's more likely,daddy did it or mommy post mortem raped her daughter in order to cover up for......God knows what.

So you would find her guilty of staging then?What about murder?
Why stage if you're innocent?Let's see....because you love your husband,because you wanna protect your other kid who did something bad,because someone tricked you into it or lied to you,there's more.
Did John have anything to do with her actual death?How do you know it was her and not him,I will ask this until I drop dead

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:clap: :clap: :clap:

madeleine said:

Who knew what stairs she comes down every morning.
Who told her immediately to call LE.

I don't care how crazy this sounds but if RDI I think she was set up and fooled from A-Z.That's why I said on the other thread that one was clever and one was lucky if RDI.Clever for being such a manipulative liar and she was lucky for not knowing the whole horrible truth.There ya go.

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maddy, I have something for you. Give me just a minute...

DeeDee249 said:

All I see are shadows in the creases of the folds. I do not see any cord. I would hardly call that an enhanced photo. For one, if that cord appears in the crime photo, that meant someone in LE had photographed it, and it would have been taken into evidence with the blanket and tape, and we would know about it. Also, don't forget that JR was not alone in that wineceller with his daughter's body. FW was right behind him. They were in there seconds, not minutes. Don't you think JR would have mentioned if he'd had to unwind cord from her body? And don't you think FW would have seen this? For JR do actually have done everything he said he did (untape her legs, give CPR, try to untie her wrists) to add unwind more cord from the blanket wrapped around her would have taken FAR longer than the time he actually spent down there.

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"JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side."

MurriFlower said:

"JR: She was laying on the blanket, and the blanket was kind of folded around her legs. And her arms were tied behind her head, and there was some pieces of black tape (inaudible) on her legs, and her head was cocked to the side."

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I don't care what he said. Her arms were most certainly NOT tied behind her head or they would have still BEEN behind her head when she was brought up/ and they would have still been tied behind her back when that crime photo was taken of her on the living room rug. And that photo shows her arms in FRONT.
JR can spin that death scene any way her wants, but science doesn't lie. Bodies in rigor mortis remain in rigor mortis until it is broken, either by decomposition or a coroner or undertaker tearing the muscle fibers.
The same goes for the tape on her legs. If there had been, her legs would remain in that position even after the tape was removed, and NO other tape was found except the small piece on her mouth.
How I wish someone had pushed JR further and asked where he put the tape from her legs and why it wasn't there in the crime pics and why her arms "magically" moved into a different position in the few seconds it took to carry her upstairs.

DeeDee249 said:

I don't care what he said. Her arms were most certainly NOT tied behind her head or they would have still BEEN behind her head when she was brought up/ and they would have still been tied behind her back when that crime photo was taken of her on the living room rug. And that photo shows her arms in FRONT.
JR can spin that death scene any way her wants, but science doesn't lie. Bodies in rigor mortis remain in rigor mortis until it is broken, either by decomposition or a coroner or undertaker tearing the muscle fibers.
The same goes for the tape on her legs. If there had been, her legs would remain in that position even after the tape was removed, and NO other tape was found except the small piece on her mouth.
How I wish someone had pushed JR further and asked where he put the tape from her legs and why it wasn't there in the crime pics and why her arms "magically" moved into a different position in the few seconds it took to carry her upstairs.

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The tape is clearly there in the picture, so is the cord. Don't take my word for it, you can do the same thing yourself with a simple photo editing and enhancing software, you can download a trial version for free (ArcSoft photo studio is the one I use). Simply save the picture http://crimeshots.com/csblanket.jpg and then open it in the photo editing program. Go to enhance. Turn down the brightness and turn up the contrast until it becomes clear, try clicking on the individual colour filters. It's not rocket science.

As I said previously, it appears her arms were originally crossed in front of her and tied around behind her back like a straight jacket, therefore the extra length of cord in between. They were then pulled up when she was dragged by her arms to the wine cellar. You can see from the crime scene photos they were bent at the elbows, but she is on her side in that photo, so when she was found on her back, they would have been above her head and the extra cord maybe still behind her head. No, JR wasn't lying, no reason for him to. Again you can experiment with this yourself DD.

MurriFlower said:

While you all have been going about your normal business, I've been using my self imposed 'time out' to work on clues.

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Working on clues IS our normal business.

I'm not going to debate the pros and cons of this, I haven't either the time or the energy to continue trying to convince any of you who have already know who did it.

So, this is for anyone who still has an open mind about this case.

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I know EXACTLY what you mean.

I don't think the Ramseys were lucky. They had money and connections, which is a huge reason why they were never charged. Luck is a force that is (mostly) out of someone's control. There are a lot of people who have gotten away with murder, simply because the victim's body hasn't been found. I would consider people like that, lucky, instead of the Ramseys.

Wasn't able to vote because I'm a fence sitter. Well,more of a flip-flopper to be precise. *ducks tomatoes*

I will have to say, whether I'm on the IDI or RDI train at the time, I think it does come down to luck, rather than cleverness. There were some definite issues with the police and prosecutor's office, and any/all involved lucked out.

They were incredibly lucky. There are numerous instances of 'If X happened instead of Y' they would've been caught. They aren't master criminals who planned 50 moves ahead and for every single possible outcome. They hastily hatched/threw together a crummy plan and lucked out that the case was bungled from the outset.