Weekend Discussion thread 04/21-24/2012

Status
Not open for further replies.
BBM

Maybe I am missing something, but I do not recall that we have proof that MR participated in the purchase of a murder weapon. TLM went in to HD, made her purchase, then placed the bag(s) in the trunk that was opened without the driver leaving the vehicle.

He contacted the escort woman, told her he needed $100. He then went to the Petro Can, tried to withdraw $100, failed, and withdrew $80. He immediately went to the hardware store where his accomplice got out of the vehicle, bought the murder weapon and garbage bags.

That's a very direct connection between MR and the murder weapon.
 
I thought this post from SurfieTX in the Isabel Celis thread was interesting, and sure did suit this case.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - AZ Isabel Mercedes Celis, 6, Tucson, 20 April 2012 #3

This part really caught my eye CB:

Profiteers – This is an individual who is a criminal exploiter who sells children to pornographers or adoption rings, mostly in the black-market industry.


Other than that, alot of what is in that article could apply to MTR - JMO
 
JMO

what I read about MR mentioning abduction of children he wasn't suggesting an abduction..he was saying that he thought some of these abductions took place because people wanted the kids for themselves and also he said that sometimes these kids grow up thinking these people that abducted them are their real parents... I did not read into that, that he was talking about abducting himself..also at the time this was all the talk not only in Woodstock but other small towns/cities so I doubt if he was the only one mentioning abduction...JMO I see nothing wrong with that,,,JMO I don't see the charge of 1st degree murder the right one but I agree he deserves some jail time for helping cover up the crime...not sure what that charge would be but maybe 2nd murder...can't see how anyone can be charged with 1st degree if they didn't swing the weapon and as per TLM he didn't....

That's the thing with our justice system, he doesn't have to be the one that wielded the hammer to be guilty of first degree murder.
 
It has been proposed that purchasing the hammer and garbage bags was TLM's idea. Really? Is the court expected to believe he just gave her money to go into Home Depot and buy supplies to fix up her mom's place on Wilson Street? And if she'd told him she needed a hammer and some garbage bags, would he not have questioned the reason, unless he knew very well what they were for? In my opinion, he's guilty as sin.

If TLM needed a hammer for repairs at home, why give her money for a new one, when he had plenty of hammers it appears? JMO
 
Attachment Disorder: Traits and Symptoms
Attachment disorder affects all aspect of a child's functioning. A child may display some combination of the following primary symptoms:
Behavior: oppositional and defiant, impulsive, destructive, lie and steal, aggressive and abusive, hyperactive, self-destructive, cruel to animals, irresponsible, fire setting.
Emotions: intense anger and temper, sad, depressed and hopeless, moody, fearful and anxious (although often hidden), irritable, inappropriate emotional reactions.
Thoughts: negative beliefs about self, relationships, and life in general ("negative working model"), lack of cause-and-effect thinking, attention and learning problems.
Relationships: lacks trust, controlling ("bossy"), manipulative, does not give or receive genuine affection and love, indiscriminately affectionate with strangers, unstable peer relationships, blames others for own mistakes or problems, victimizes others/victimized.
Physical: poor hygiene, tactilely defensive, enuresis and encopresis, accident prone, high pain tolerance, genetic predispositions (e.g., depression, hyperactivity).
Moral/Spiritual: lack of faith, compassion, remorse, meaning and other prosocial values, identification with evil and the dark side of life.



Back To Top


What Can Cause Attachment Disorder?
Listed below are situations and experiences that place children at high-risk for developing attachment disorders:
Parental/Caregiver Contributions:
Abuse and/or neglect
Ineffective and insensitive care
Depression: unipolar, bipolar, postpartum
Severe and/or chronic psychological disturbances: biological and/or emotional
Teenage parenting
Substance abuse
Intergenerational attachment difficulties: unresolved family-of-origin issues, history of separation, loss, maltreatment
Prolonged absence: prison, hospital, desertion
Child Contributions:
Difficult temperament; lack of "fit" with parents or caregivers
Premature birth
Medical conditions; unrelieved pain (e.g., inner ear), colicky
Hospitalizations: separation and loss
Failure to thrive syndrome
Congenital and/or biological problems: neurological impairment, fetal alcohol syndrome, in utero drug exposure, physical handicaps
Genetic factors: family history of mental illness, depression, aggression, criminality, substance abuse, antisocial personality
Environmental Contributions:
Poverty
Violence: victim and/or witness
Lack of support: absent father and extended kin, isolation, lack of services
Multiple out-of-home placements: moves in foster care system, multiple caregivers
High stress: marital conflict, family disorganization and chaos, violent community

http://www.attachmentexperts.com/whatisattachment.html#traits
 
I am surprised that anyone would try to paint one half of a murderous team as an innocent. They both knew perfectly well that if they left Tori alive they would be arrested for what they did ... that the only hope of getting away with it was to eliminate the witness. There's no way that MR was ignorant about how the plan ended.

Great post Otto!
 
How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.

BBM: For anyone on the post or convinced of his innocence, this is the perfect question to ask yourself!

Would you leave a girl under age 9 alone with MTR?

JMO
 
MR bought 300 percs while Tori was in the car. Great babysitting. Maybe Tori had to go because she knew he bought that many pills? Just another thing to add to the list. He wanted to rape her and she knew about all the drugs he bought too. So she had to die. JMO

Hmm, I don't think he bought 300 percs Matou. I think he bought 300$ worth of percs. If he'd bought 300@3$ a piece, he'd have paid 900$.
 
BBM: For anyone on the post or convinced of his innocence, this is the perfect question to ask yourself!

Would you leave a girl under age 9 alone with MTR? AND with a hammer![COLOR="DarkGreen"][/COLOR]

JMO

No way; heck I wouldn't want to be alone with him let alone leave an 8 year old with him. JMO

I added the "and with a hammer" was supposed to be in green :O) Oops.

ok my editing skills suck! JMO
 
I can't wait to hear what MR did while TLM was killing Tori. He didn't use his phone. Where did he go? What did he do? What did she tell him was going to happen?


How is Derstine going to present the evidence of where MTR was and what he was doing while TLM was murdering Tori, without putting MTR on the stand?

Who is going to say "he was driving/walking around, so upset over the fact that he was breaking up with Springtime Girlfriend #15, while TLM was murdering Tori in the field that he knew so well and just happened to stumble back upon....."

Really, though, who is Derstine going to put on the stand to explain what MTR was doing?

Does he actually have an alibi, someone who will take the stand and say they were with him?

I think we WILL see MTR on the stand. His ego tells me so. He has nothing to lose.

JMO
 
How is Derstine going to present the evidence of where MTR was and what he was doing while TLM was murdering Tori, without putting MTR on the stand?

Who is going to say "he was driving/walking around, so upset over the fact that he was breaking up with Springtime Girlfriend #15, while TLM was murdering Tori in the field that he knew so well and just happened to stumble back upon....."

Really, though, who is Derstine going to put on the stand to explain what MTR was doing?

Does he actually have an alibi, someone who will take the stand and say they were with him?

I think we WILL see MTR on the stand. His ego tells me so. He has nothing to lose.

JMO

very good points; you might be right. He might think he is slick enough to pull it off; try spouting details like TLM so it becomes a he said she said. Do you think that he will try and "enact" a replica of TLM's testimony?????So then who do you believe??? Except, it is 3 years later. JMO
 
Does anyone else wonder if MTR ever threatened anyone else with a hammer? JMO
 
I am surprised that anyone would try to paint one half of a murderous team as an innocent. They both knew perfectly well that if they left Tori alive they would be arrested for what they did ... that the only hope of getting away with it was to eliminate the witness. There's no way that MR was ignorant about how the plan ended.


BBM: Funny thing is Otto, even Rafferty's Defense has admitted his guilt. He admitted MTR "cleaned up" Victoria's remains (because he had to, just look at all the physical evidence).

So, Derstine is not even attempting to claim innocence for his client.

JMO
 
How is Derstine going to present the evidence of where MTR was and what he was doing while TLM was murdering Tori, without putting MTR on the stand?

Who is going to say "he was driving/walking around, so upset over the fact that he was breaking up with Springtime Girlfriend #15, while TLM was murdering Tori in the field that he knew so well and just happened to stumble back upon....."

Really, though, who is Derstine going to put on the stand to explain what MTR was doing?

Does he actually have an alibi, someone who will take the stand and say they were with him?

I think we WILL see MTR on the stand. His ego tells me so. He has nothing to lose.

JMO

If MTR was somewhere else completely while TLM was killing Tori, wouldn't Derstine have to prove this?

And if he was in the field somewhere, did he not hear Tori screaming while TLM was stomping and kicking her? WTH... any normal person would come running.

I wonder if he's gonna try say that MTR was in Fergus where one of the pings was detected.

JMO
 
BBM: For anyone on the post or convinced of his innocence, this is the perfect question to ask yourself!

Would you leave a girl under age 9 alone with MTR?

JMO


Well I have already answered that question a few pages back. ....can't imagine anyone even suggesting that he is totally innocent of all charges...but I can understand why some, me included are undecided about some of the charges.. JMO..also I would hate to see someone convicted of a 1st degree murder charge when in this instance someone other than the current accused has testified that it was in fact SHE who did the deed... I think the crown would have to have more proof than they have shown to get him on a 1st degree murder charge but hey one never knows...the law works in mysterious ways...or so they say....JMO
 
How many people would feel comfortable leaving a female child under the age of nine alone with someone like MR? To believe that he was duped, or that truthfulness from his accomplice is required, does one also believe that a young female child would be safe in his care? Personally, I think there is plenty of evidence, excluding his accomplice, that points to his guilt. His accomplice can tell as many lies as she wants and his lawyer can obfuscate the truth all he wants, but MR still doesn't look duped or innocent to me.

I don't think anyone is saying that TM would have left VS with either TLM or MR.................but that TLS abducted VS without MR's knowledge and told him she was babysitting for TM.

Given they all sort of knew each other, MR might not have thought it that unusual.

It all remains to be seen though.

I will be very interested to see if the beginning of the defense case heads towards that theory..........or abandons it completely.

That may say a lot for me.............

JMO..............
 
I would add to my own post above..........

Think about TLM...........

She has manipulated counselors, probation officers, social workers, he mother, everyone around her for half of her life.

She manipulated LE and the Crown with her false statement.

She manipulated the family of VS with her statements at her sentencing.

Think about what her own lawyer said...................

They discussed the crime together for months. They wept together. TLM poured out her heart........................

And when her lawyer wasn't there.......she said she had no regrets and would gladly do it again.

TLM is a person who can never be rehabilitated. She was already in her mind set long before she met MR.

Her assertion that MR had this power over her and she could do nothing about it............is laughable.

The evidence is that she was the one who did the controlling in her life, not the one being controlled.

If controlling TLM was that easy, she wouldn't have spent half her life in jail.

Consider the evidence, wherever it leads, but don't take TLM's word for anything.JMO................

Except for when she admits that she kills VS right? Then it is written in stone right?
I agree she was not manipulated. I believe she was an equal participant in a horrendous crime. They are both responsible for the death of a child. No matter how you slice it he was involved in some way shape or form. I hope they send him to the Haven and put him in with gen pop. Then he will really know what it is to feel terrified just like VS.
 
I think a couple of mentally defective 18 and 28 year old lunatics might think that a 8 year witnessing a drug deal would present problems for them.

MR went into his friends home to buy the oxys.........VS stayed in the car.

JMO.........
 
If MTR was somewhere else completely while TLM was killing Tori, wouldn't Derstine have to prove this?
He does not have to prove MTR innocent because by our legal system he's already presumed innocent. He just has to create enough spin and confusion in the minds of the jury to raise reasonable doubt as to MTR's guilt. Like it or not, that's the system we're stuck with. The Crown has to work very hard to produce a guilty verdict.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
174
Guests online
3,780
Total visitors
3,954

Forum statistics

Threads
591,835
Messages
17,959,810
Members
228,621
Latest member
Greer∆
Back
Top