GUILTY AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #6

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It will be interesting to see if they state today that Tim Romans was abusing this boy or if he murdered him just because he was at the crime scene. After all this dispostion sentence is supposed to be about him killing Tim Romans. I have never seen another case where someone who was abused killed an outsider. So we will see if that is mentioned.

But I am very glad that he will be housed in an in house treatment facility away from Appache County. I have always felt this boy has grave mental issues that needs to be dealt with. No normal kid this age does what he did even if they were abused imo.


imo

I too am glad he will be leaving the county - he really doesn't stand much of a break there.

OBE, I will be very surprised to hear of any abuse at Romans's hands....though the boy could have perceived him as an adult who stood by and did nothing while the boy felt other adults were harming him. I (and this is just my opinion) think he killed Tim because Tim would have been a witness....I don't know that the boy necessarily planned out Tim's (or even his Dad's) murder way in advance - shooting Tim could have been a passionate decision made at the last minute when the boy was under the duress of having killed his Dad, not wanting to get caught and feeling like it was the right sort of "cops and robbers" type decision - to get rid of a witness.

I am not surprised to hear that there was "pervasive" psychological and some physical abuse - others close to the case have said that all along. I agree with you that the child's reaction was extremely abnormal even in the face of abuse.

My continued prayers for these families.
 
All of the "information" you just posted about Tim is your ideal of him, you know NONE of it! He loved children??? Pffft, how do you know? There is no evidence that he did not see abuse either! So Tim was a saint, but an 8 year old child is a piece of garbage, wrecked, and we should toss him away and throw away the key?

Obviously the old saying "You never know what goes on behind closed doors" applies here...

I am disappointed, I thought we had found some common ground.....

respectfully snipped by me

I'm uncertain how one could call the part of OBE's post that you highlighted in red "information" when that entire section was followed by the phrase "imo." This indicates to me that OBE was giving her opinion, but perhaps I am reading that wrong. :waitasec:

FWIW, based on things I have read about this case, I also have the opinion that Tim worked long hours, stayed at the house but may have been somewhat removed from the ins and outs of daily family life between boy and parents and seemed to care a lot about children. These observations don't make Tim a saint, of course, but they are fair observations.
 
All of the "information" you just posted about Tim is your ideal of him, you know NONE of it! He loved children??? Pffft, how do you know? There is no evidence that he did not see abuse either! So Tim was a saint, but an 8 year old child is a piece of garbage, wrecked, and we should toss him away and throw away the key?

Obviously the old saying "You never know what goes on behind closed doors" applies here...

I am disappointed, I thought we had found some common ground.



Well, thank goodness Linda, you do not have do be willing, or lap anything up, the world will go on and this boy will get the help he needs.

It is what I have read about him said by his own children whom he raised all of their lives and others who commented in the media how Tim reached out to help youths. Yes, I do think he loved children and you certainly don't know he didn't either do you?

There is no evidence that he did see any abuse either.

I never said that Tim Romans was a saint (why is a victim expected to be a saint anyway?) so I have no clue where you are coming from but he certainly didn't deserve to be lured into a home uder the pretenses of the kid needing help only to be cut down and filled with 6 bullets into his body by this very same kid.

Tim is the victim in this case. Even giving the boy a freebie for his father's death because of supposed abuse does not rationalize why he also killed Tim Romans too. Like I said if that is cleared up in today's court hearing then good because at this time, imo, it absolutely makes no sense. This disposition is supposed to be about the killing of Tim Romans and I certainly hope that motive too is mentioned today since he was never even tried for his father's death. I would hate once again for Tim Romans to be forgotten when the plea deal is about the boy killing HIM not his father.

I don't recall anyone saying they should throw away the key. He is going to an in house mental facility and one day he will be let out to roam in society again so how is that locking him up and throwing away the key?

imo
 
Sorry, I am not willing to lap up and believe what comes out of the mouth of a known double murderer and liar.

I hope his stay in the RTC is long, intense and a productive one.....for societies sake as much as his own.

Me too, Linda. The best decisions are always ones that benefit the most people, and I am glad all sides in this case have landed on this page - a course of action that has a chance to help the child as well as all of us.

It can never be a bad thing for society to try to teach a young child that murderous violence is never a good response to anger and frustration and fear. Our prisons are filled with people who were unable to learn that before it was too late.

As far as believing the child, I would think the mental health experts who have been closely involved in this child's case for almost 1 and 1/2 years have had a chance to speak not only with the boy about his perceptions of his home life, but also others. I doubt anyone is taking at complete face value and in a vacuum the word of an 8-10 year old child who has killed two grown men to include his own father. I don't have a hard time believing that there was some abuse going on. Now that doesn't negate the fact that the child's response to it was extremely abnormal.
 
IMO the boy may have had some bad feelings toward Tim too... not meaning that Tim (or Vince for that matter) deserved what happened to them though.

Tim (more than likely) knew of the abuse. Although he probably tried to shield the boy somewhat, like talking to Vince about it and taking the boy out on his own occaisionally just for fun. Things 'may' have been worse (or better) when Tim was around either by Tiffany/Vince not wanting to abuse the boy as much when he was around or by them 'showing off' by punishing him more severely in front of Tim... we just don't know at this point. Thus the boy may have had some hard feelings toward Tim for not helping him, especially if the boy considered him a friend in a way... but it still does not excuse him for what was done to Tim if what LE says happened that day is what really happened. Tim was perfectly able to report the abuse to authorities too if he desired to, so even he is not completely off the hook in that regard IMO.
 
IMO the boy may have had some bad feelings toward Tim too... not meaning that Tim (or Vince for that matter) deserved what happened to them though.

Tim (more than likely) knew of the abuse. Although he probably tried to shield the boy somewhat, like talking to Vince about it and taking the boy out on his own occaisionally just for fun. Things 'may' have been worse (or better) when Tim was around either by Tiffany/Vince not wanting to abuse the boy as much when he was around or by them 'showing off' by punishing him more severely in front of Tim... we just don't know at this point. Thus the boy may have had some hard feelings toward Tim for not helping him, especially if the boy considered him a friend in a way... but it still does not excuse him for what was done to Tim if what LE says happened that day is what really happened. Tim was perfectly able to report the abuse to authorities too if he desired to, so even he is not completely off the hook in that regard IMO.

It's hard to say without knowing the nature of the abuse, of course, whether or not Tim should have reported. To me, it sounds like his Father and stepmom may have been very strict - there is a line between strict and abuse that isn't always easy to distinguish.

I'm not a spanker, but I wouldn't automatically call spanking abusive. Psychological abuse comes in many shapes, sizes and colors - again, it's just hard to determine. Without having lived in the house and experienced its dynamic, I am not willing to conclude that Tim overlooked anything. That said, I agree with you that the boy might have thought Tim should have come to his aid and he did not.
 
It's too bad this boy didn't stay in residential treatment from the beginning. I think it would have been more beneficial to him to stay there and get intensive help then live with his mom. Living with mom seemed more like a reward for double murder and certainly not treatment. Outpatient visits is not enough therapy for a case like this. I hope for societies sake that this boy actually does get help.
 
I am not surprised at all there was abuse to this little boy.I have always thought there was from the very beginning.I always said what provoked what happened.I pray he gets the mental help he needs and they really do help him.It's all very sad.
 

It seems finally it is just beginning.

He will be housed in a mental facility for an undetermined amount of time and he will be under intensive probation until he is 18 years old.

The motive doesn't seem definitive either on the death of his father and none offered on the killing of Tim Romans.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...than-a-year-after/508pMDeF6kmQsUbWpJw6-Q.cspx

"A motive never has been made clear, although the boy told investigators he kept a tally of spankings. His attorney, Ron Wood, suggested Thursday that the boy reacted to psychological and emotional abuse but said he was not physically hurt. Whiting said he wouldn't classify whatever went on in the boy's home as abuse."

"Bloomfield said she could make no excuses for her son or his actions and that he will have to live with knowing how many people he has hurt."

So since Woods knows the kid wasn't physically hurt the boy lied about the spankings.

imo
 
A motive never has been made clear, although the boy told investigators he kept a tally of spankings. His attorney, Ron Wood, suggested Thursday that the boy reacted to psychological and emotional abuse but said he was not physically hurt. Whiting said he wouldn't classify whatever went on in the boy's home as abuse.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...than-a-year-after/508pMDeF6kmQsUbWpJw6-Q.cspx

So there so is no obvious overt abuse.... if it was there we would hear more about it.
 
I'm so glad CR is finally going to get the help he needs.

As far as possible abuse is concerned, I doubt we've heard the last about that. There is one other person who knows what was going on behind those doors.

IF these murders were the result of abuse, the fact is the reaction was waaaaaaaaaaay out the realm of normal. Perhaps now, an expert will be able to determine why.
 
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/01/15/arizona.boy.homicide/

During a news conference after the sentencing, Wood was asked how confident he is the treatment will work for his client.

"I don't know, ask me in three years. Ask me when he's been through the process of having his brain picked ... then maybe we will find out," Wood said.

Asked the same question, Whiting replied, "50-50 ... I would bet it's going to be a tough road."
 
A motive never has been made clear, although the boy told investigators he kept a tally of spankings. His attorney, Ron Wood, suggested Thursday that the boy reacted to psychological and emotional abuse but said he was not physically hurt. Whiting said he wouldn't classify whatever went on in the boy's home as abuse.

http://www.abc15.com/content/news/n...than-a-year-after/508pMDeF6kmQsUbWpJw6-Q.cspx

So there so is no obvious overt abuse.... if it was there we would hear more about it.

Well imo Whiting could be covering his butt so to speak, because of past statements made. It also depends on what you would classify as 'physically hurt'. No broken limbs or trips to the emergency room does not mean NO physical abuse. IMO there was physical abuse although psychological/emotional abuse is quite enough... there may not have been any evidence of physical abuse at the time of the murders.
I also don't believe this is the end of the abuse allegations, but since the boy: will get the treatment he needs, the mom is pleased with the sentencing outcome, the boy is out of the county, the step-mom is paralysed, the family is embracing the boy now, the town wants to be done with it... it may just be dropped. Now that everyone now KNOWS there WAS abuse in the household perhaps everyone involved can start the healing process.
 
Well imo Whiting could be covering his butt so to speak, because of past statements made. It also depends on what you would classify as 'physically hurt'. No broken limbs or trips to the emergency room does not mean NO physical abuse. IMO there was physical abuse although psychological/emotional abuse is quite enough... there may not have been any evidence of physical abuse at the time of the murders.
I also don't believe this is the end of the abuse allegations, but since the boy: will get the treatment he needs, the mom is pleased with the sentencing outcome, the boy is out of the county, the step-mom is paralyzed, the family is embracing the boy now, the town wants to be done with it... it may just be dropped. Now that everyone now KNOWS there WAS abuse in the household perhaps everyone involved can start the healing process.

I was very pleased to see Eryn made no excuses for her kid and what he has done.

It hasn't been proven that there WAS abuse in the home dgfred. Woods just suggested that and Whiting who really has always had the best interest of this boy all along, imo stated he wouldn't classify whatever went on in the boy's home as abuse.

Nothing was revealed in court showing proof of abuse and nothing was said that rationally explains why he killed Tim Romans either. My heart goes out to the Romans family and friends who will never have those answers.

I think back to Whiting saying that the boy had a behavioral problem and that is why they were having a hard time finding him an in house treatment facility all this time. Imo, there is something seriously wrong with how this kid thinks and perceives and reacts to things.

Imo, this kid was just a kid older than his bio age and killed for the same reasons we hear that other juveniles have murdered because they just didn't like playing by the rules the parents had.

Whiting said if this boy is still in treatment at 18 years old then it is highly doubtful the treatment was successful.

imo
 
I was very pleased to see Eryn made no excuses for her kid and what he has done.

It hasn't been proven that there WAS abuse in the home dgfred. Woods just suggested that and Whiting who really has always had the best interest of this boy all along, imo stated he wouldn't classify whatever went on in the boy's home as abuse.

Nothing was revealed in court showing proof of abuse and nothing was said that rationally explains why he killed Tim Romans either. My heart goes out to the Romans family and friends who will never have those answers.

I think back to Whiting saying that the boy had a behavioral problem and that is why they were having a hard time finding him an in house treatment facility all this time. Imo, there is something seriously wrong with how this kid thinks and perceives and reacts to things.

Imo, this kid was just a kid older than his bio age and killed for the same reasons we hear that other juveniles have murdered because they just didn't like playing by the rules the parents had.

Whiting said if this boy is still in treatment at 18 years old then it is highly doubtful the treatment was successful.

imo

Glad you are pleased.

It has not been proven or even discussed that there WAS NOT abuse, recent new's reports are the first the general public have even heard about it.

This court session was not the forum to even discuss the abuse, only victim statements and sentencing.

Yeah I'd go with what Whiting has said, like when he said the boy had violated court orders in town :snooty: . IMO there were serious behavioral problems by the dad and step-mom in the way they perceived a child should be treated.

Easy to say he killed because he didn't like the rules he was required to live by... but not quite accurate when nobody know exactly the type/manner/conditions of abuse he was forced to live under and what would be an appropriate 'reaction'.

What Whiting 'thinks' about the treatment of the boy has no bearing imo judging from previous statements/actions he has made in this case.
 
Well imo Whiting could be covering his butt so to speak, because of past statements made. It also depends on what you would classify as 'physically hurt'. No broken limbs or trips to the emergency room does not mean NO physical abuse. IMO there was physical abuse although psychological/emotional abuse is quite enough... there may not have been any evidence of physical abuse at the time of the murders.
I also don't believe this is the end of the abuse allegations, but since the boy: will get the treatment he needs, the mom is pleased with the sentencing outcome, the boy is out of the county, the step-mom is paralysed, the family is embracing the boy now, the town wants to be done with it... it may just be dropped. Now that everyone now KNOWS there WAS abuse in the household perhaps everyone involved can start the healing process.

I "know" no such thing.
 
Psychological abuse can be tough to "define." One thing, for me at least, is clear - while there may have been (IMHO, most certainly was) a dysfunctional dynamic in his core family unit and some emotional/psychological abuse, there is no evidence that there was "hardcore" physical or sexual abuse. I truly believe that if there evidence that this child had been beaten, raped, tortured (you know - the sort of terrible things we read about that some families do to their children), the public would know about it.

For me, I think the boy did NOT react well to some very strict, authoritarian parenting tactics, which may or may not have included spankings, but which certainly included an unyielding "we are in charge and you will listen to us" attitude. This - coupled with his individual psyche, his confusion and anger over the divorce, his desire to live with his Mom, his dislike of his stepmom stepping in as a disciplinarian, his access to and experience with guns and his immaturity - led to this tragedy.

I don't think we will ever fully "get" his motive, but I am comfortable with my understanding of it.
 
......nobody know exactly the type/manner/conditions of abuse he was forced to live under and what would be an appropriate 'reaction'....

Respectfully snipped by me

For me, dgfred, armed double homicide is never an appropriate reaction of an 8-year-old, even if that 8-year-old has withstood terrible long-term abuse. It's an uncommon psychological response - rare to the point of almost being singular.

Like many of us here, I have followed cases of horrific child abuse for years, and I have NEVER known of a child responding to unspeakable horrors by killing two grown men.
 
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