FL - 17-yo Teen Trayvon Martin Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #5

RANCH said:

I wonder what the penalty is for breaking a neighborhood watch rule? Jail time or ?

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Typically depending upon the nature of the violation it could be temporary suspension all the way up to complete dismissal... The board of the HOA would determine the appropriate disciplinary action.

However, we don't even know if they had a true Watch program? It may have been one in 'appearance only' which means they likely didn't even have any written rules.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...hooting/story?id=15997075&page=2#.T29zjtU_LQ0

"I think when the other 911 tapes are released, and the other evidence comes out, I think it will show clearly that George Zimmerman was acting in self defense,'' Oliver said. "The question is: how far did he pursue? Who made the initial contact? What started the confrontation in the first place? The fact that the investigation so far has come out the way it has -- because of Sanford's history -- I find it hard to believe that the Sanford Police Department wouldn't have George in jail now if they had one ... piece [of evidence] to support that fact. George Zimmerman is not in jail because ... they don't have the evidence to arrest him."

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Are we missing something? I thought all of the 911 tapes have already been made public...

with all of his contacts back to 2004. He really was a time bomb-from the first call on this log where he was chasing someone in his car. IMO, once he moved in to the complex where the shooting occurred he then became fixated on crime occurring there and his belief that the crimes were being committed by black males. He then began seeing black male youth as suspicious and interpreting whatever they were doing in a suspicious light and warning others about them

And they were the only people he warned others about.

Quote:
This afternoon six of the calls made by George Zimmerman were released by theSeminole County Sheriff's Office.

In four of the recordings Zimmerman called police to report "suspicious" persons — all of whom were black — in or near the Retreat at Twin Lakes neighborhood.
http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-office-report

Quote:
The white neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida whose fatal shooting of an unarmed black teen has sparked outrage appeared to be fixated on young black males, according to a report in The Miami Herald. ..According to the Herald, Zimmerman would often go door-to-door in the neighborhood, warning residents to be careful of young black males. The news organization also reports Zimmerman was energetic in his efforts to protect the neighborhood, and that he contacted police 46 times since Jan. 1, 2011, to report disturbances, break-ins and other incident.
http://www.ksdk.com/news/article/311...n-called-cops-

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http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

LolaMoon08 said:

His 911 transcripts.

http://marinadedave.com/journal/2012/3/22/the-tragedy-of-trayvon-martin.html

It is my opinion that George Zimmerman stalked/looked for trouble for years around the entire area of Sanford, Florida. IMO, I am surprised that this didn't happen sooner.

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Ironhorse said:

What motive? That he tried to prevent crimes rather than turning a blind eye to them as others do... Heck, I'd hate to calculate how many times I got on the phone with the police each evening.

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Calls such as someone left their window open, kids playing in the street, suspicious people walking in the neighborhood, etc. Some were good calls, most were not. Evidently everything was suspicious to him. If the calls were credible there is nothing wrong with calling them in. Some of his neighbors supported his calls, other's felt he was too much. Maybe the neighbor who was "airing" out their home by opening a window felt he was intruding when he called it in. Who knows. It's just 46 calls in such a short time seems excessive and maybe he was just a little too into the "protect and serve" thing. But that is just my opinion.

[Nonetheless, I agree he should announced who he was and why he was seeking to speak with Mr. Martin. However we don't in fact know that he didn't do that just before the face to face confrontation...

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He did however overlook other, earlier, logical opportunities to do so. Moo

Belinda said:

I can't think of how he landed in this position unless he was shot in the back while running away. Wonder why the autopsy hasn't been released? I find that suspicious. There is something that they don't want getting out there. IMO

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Me too, Belinda. I didn't want to say it, but I keep going over and over this, and I can find no way for TM to have landed face down with his hands under him.

If GZ shot TM while TM was on top and TM fell forward, then GZ would have had to move him, to get out from under him. That all makes sense. But if TM was using his hands in anyway to control, hit, choke, whatever, when GZ moved to get out from under, at least one arm would have been out to the side - not underneath. And GZ would have had TM's blood on him. There has been no mention of that either - which indicates that GZ was not in real close proximity to TM. So what does that mean?

Salem

Ironhorse said:

Typically depending upon the nature of the violation it could be temporary suspension all the way up to complete dismissal... The board of the HOA would determine the appropriate disciplinary action.

However, we don't even know if they had a true Watch program? It may have been one in 'appearance only' which means they likely didn't even have any written rules.

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http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...20324_1_civil-lawsuit-neighborhood-watch-nabj

According to reports by National Public Radio and CNN, Parks told the NABJ members his firm has obtained documentation establishing that Zimmerman was a neighborhood watch captain.

Wendy Dorival, who organizes Neighborhood Watch for the Sanford Police Department, told the Sentinel in a recent interview that Zimmerman was chosen as a watch coordinator by his neighbors.

Zimmerman raised no red flags during an organizational meeting Sept. 22, and no one had complained about him before the shooting, Dorival said.

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Even though people have said they complained to both the HOA and SPD about Zimmerman's aggressiveness...she still made the last statement.

Anyway, it appears that there was a Neighborhood Watch Program, but it was not registered nationally. For all intents and purposes, Zimmerman was recognized as a neighborhood watchman.

Boytwnmom said:

with all of his contacts back to 2004. He really was a time bomb-from the first call on this log where he was chasing someone in his car. IMO, once he moved in to the complex where the shooting occurred he then became fixated on crime occurring there and his belief that the crimes were being committed by black males. He then began seeing black male youth as suspicious and interpreting whatever they were doing in a suspicious light and warning others about them





http://www.sanfordfl.gov/investigation/docs/911CallHistory.pdf

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There were 8 break ins done mostly by black kids in the neighborhood.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...r-comes-to-defense-of-trayvon-martins-shooter

Horace Finklestein said:

The 911 operator is LE and he did NOT tell GZ not to follow TM. You are also unable to provide proof that GZ started the physical altercation. I'd feel exactly the same way if TM was a woman or a white person. I do not think GZ would randomly decide to kill anyone if he wasn't in fear for his life. I'm happy to say race and gender don't factor into my thinking on this issue. Plenty of white kids and girls start fights too.

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911 Operator: "Are you following him?"

GZ: "Yep."

911 Operator: "Okay, we don't need you to do that."

How is that not telling GZ to stop following TM??

Also, in no way do Florida's 911 dispatchers enforce the law. See certification requirements and expectation of duties here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0400-0499/0401/Sections/0401.465.html

I'm bringing a quote from Richard Hornsby"s post on the previous thread because it states exactly what I feel about this case.

Quote:
"In this case, the most crucial piece of evidence that is missing is the circumstances under which Zimmerman became physically engaged with Trayvon. If Trayvon simply swung at him, deadly force would not be justified."

Quote:
"But if, say, Trayvon jumped him and somehow got on top of him and started beating on him, Zimmerman's use of deadly force would be reasonable if he was on the ground - even under the old law, because once you are in a defenseless position you can no longer retreat."

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4
Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

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Witness: Martin attacked Zimmerman

Updated: Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 6:19 PM EDT
Published : Friday, 23 Mar 2012, 5:47 PM EDT



ORLANDO - A witness we haven't heard from before paints a much different picture than we've seen so far of what happened the night 17-year-old Trayvon Martin was shot and killed.

The night of that shooting, police say there was a witness who saw it all.

Our sister station, FOX 35 in Orlando, has spoken to that witness.

What Sanford Police investigators have in the folder, they put together on the killing of Trayvon Martin few know about.

The file now sits in the hands of the state attorney. Now that file is just weeks away from being opened to a grand jury.

It shows more now about why police believed that night that George Zimmerman shouldn't have gone to jail.

Zimmerman called 911 and told dispatchers he was following a teen. The dispatcher told Zimmerman not to.

And from that moment to the shooting, details are few.

But one man's testimony could be key for the police.

"The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: 'help, help…and I told him to stop and I was calling 911," he said.

Trayvon Martin was in a hoodie; Zimmerman was in red.

The witness only wanted to be identified as "John," and didn't not want to be shown on camera.

His statements to police were instrumental, because police backed up Zimmerman's claims, saying those screams on the 911 call are those of Zimmerman.

"When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point," John said

more here:
http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

HiHater said:

I'm basing it on my opinion, which is why I concluded by saying JMO MOO IMO.

There's nothing to minimize about the "friend" because he was NOT a witness to what happened.

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Here's a witness:

http://www.myfoxtampabay.com/dpp/news/state/witness-martin-attacked-zimmerman-03232012

Horace Finklestein said:

That of course is not the only possible scenario. Trayvon could have doubled back and I doubt GZ would have been able to get close to him unless Trayvon allowed it. As we keep hearing, he outweighs TM, a football player, by 100 lbs.

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Well, according to Bill Lee, this is the scenario? Unless he lied? He would have seen the police reports right? He was defending George Zimmerman? Letting us all know that Zimmerman was innocently jumping out of his car to jot down a street address and walking back to his car when Trayvon jumped him from behind? Why would Bill Lee say that, in defense of Zimmerman, if that's not what Zimmerman stated happened?

SuziQ said:

Songline, Let me clarify for you. Suspension does equate to a bad kid. And it certainly does not make one deserving of being killed.

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I agree with that nor did I ever say anything like that.

Rougelatete said:

911 Operator: "Are you following him?"

GZ: "Yep."

911 Operator: "Okay, we don't need you to do that."

How is that not telling GZ to stop following TM??

Also, in no way do Florida's 911 dispatchers enforce the law. See certification requirements and expectation of duties here:
http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes...ng=&URL=0400-0499/0401/Sections/0401.465.html

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Because saying "we don't need you to do that" is not the same as saying "do not do that". I think the semantics are important here.

I'd like to know what this was about. Why didn't GZ want to give out his home address to the 911 dispatcher if he wasn't doing anything wrong?

911 dispatcher:

OK, do you live in the area?

Zimmerman:

Yeah, yeah, I live here.

911 dispatcher:

OK, what’s your apartment number?

Zimmerman:

It’s a home. It’s 1950 – oh, crap, I don’t want to give it out – I don’t know where this kid is [inaudible] [3:40]

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http://www.examiner.com/unsolved-cases-in-national/george-zimmerman-s-911-call-transcribed

Inabsentia said:

Songline, if he was acting as a Watch person, if in fact, as you maintain, he had a duty to do so, then did he not also have a duty to follow the rules of the Neighborhood Watch organization? I don't think you should be able to cloak yourself in the authority of an organization while flagrantly flouting it's rules.

I find it significant that Zimmerman does not identify himself as a member of the Neighborhood Watch to the dispatcher when he calls. Or at least nowhere I could find. I also find it significant that Chief Lee stresses that George was on a personal errand at the time of the incident. Moo

http://news.yahoo.com/george-zimmerman-why-did-shoot-trayvon-martin-141231964.html

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If you read my posts I Always say,
lets give the case a chance... because you all have hung him.
I dont know who is innicent... but all of you only dig up stuff on GZ.

LambChop said:

They do have rules and guidelines which were provided to them by the police department. GZ is the one who called LE to set up the NWP in his neighborhood. As just a "private citizen" GZ might not know the rules, however he set it up and attended the classes prior to the NWP coming to the neighborhood

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And this is a stated FACT? Evidence please...
As State Statue 843.20 could have some bearing on this incident. If Mr. Martin took any action to harass, intimidate, or threaten Mr. Zimmerman.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/843.20

so he was quite aware of what he was doing when his disregarded LE's request that he did not have to follow. GZ then mislead the dispatcher by saying okay. Had the dispatcher known GZ was intending on following TM he would have never let GZ hang up that phone because of the risk factor and safety issue. Had the dispatcher known GZ had a gun I'm am sure he would have given GZ a direct order to stand down and wait until LE arrived and the dispatcher would have made sure GZ stayed put by not hanging up with GZ. jmo

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We don't know that Mr. Zimmerman didn't follow the dispatchers recommendations and was attacked on his way back to his vehicle.

Horace Finklestein said:

Because saying "we don't need you to do that" is not the same as saying "do not do that". I think the semantics are important here.

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I think Zimmerman clearly understood what the dispatcher was saying when he said "we don't need you to be doing that" when he replied "okay." The dispatcher clearly did not want Zimmerman following Trayvon. He did not demand it, but he clearly advises against it.

I don't understand what is so difficult to just say... Sure, the dispatcher told him he shouldn't be following Trayvon, but he did it anyways? That's what happened?

Another thing, if Trayvon was so suspicious, why even hang up with LE? Why didn't he stay on the line until LE arrived?

Horace Finklestein said:

Because saying "we don't need you to do that" is not the same as saying "do not do that". I think the semantics are important here.

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Are the semantics important here? Seems like GZ's National Neighborhood Watch Program has some pretty clear guidelines -- of which GZ ignored every last one:

The manual, from the National Neighborhood Watch Program, states: "It should be emphasized to members that they do not possess police powers, and they shall not carry weapons or pursue vehicles. They should also be cautioned to alert police or deputies when encountering strange activity. Members should never confront suspicious persons who could be armed and dangerous."

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http://abcnewsradioonline.com/natio...er-ignored-neighborhood-watch-guidelines.html

LambChop said:

They have no authority. They have a set of guidelines to follow to report a crime or suspicious behavior same as any private citizen. Difference is a NWP knows they are only to report and not to pursue. So I guess GZ thought of himself as a private citizen and the guidelines be damned. jmo

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Not sure what the obsession over the NW is about. He was trying to be a good citizen - they do still exist - as far as any of us know. GZ did what he was supposed to do by NW guidelines, he saw someone acting suspicious, and called LE - he tried to keep an eye on Trayvon, which is different than stalking him or chasing him down. To keep an eye on Trayvon, he'd have to follow to a certain extent. If he wanted to confront and kill TM, planning to cry SYG later, why call LE in the first place? Why ask several times for the dispatcher to get LE to the community, not knowing if there was a car nearby?

GZ's actions do not, and have never, fit the profile of a vigilante-cold-blooded-murderer, his actions fit the profile of a concerned citizen, not at all out of character from his past actions as a concerned citizen and neighbor.

Trayvon's actions did not fit the profile of an innocent "child" walking to the store to buy skittles for his friend/future step-brother. Zimmerman had been watching TM walking around, looking at the houses, before he called LE - when he saw GZ, and without provocation (which sitting in front of the club house is not provocation), TA, unafraid, took the time to stare at GZ and come toward him, checking him out, and then, for no apparent reason, running. Judging from the area he was shot in, he didn't run far and he certainly didn't run home. JMO

TM confronted GZ, not the other way around.

TM: "Why are you following me?"

GZ: "What are you doing here?"

Does it make sense for GZ to ask a question and punch TM before he could answer? Does it make sense that, when GZ asked Trayvon a simple question, TM would punch GZ?

The altercation, if one believes the girlfriends account, came immediately after GZ asked TM what he was doing there. Not exactly fighting words and a simple answer would likely have sufficed... "visiting my dad's girlfriend, they live at **** blah blah", who are you?"

No doubt this post will be answered with fingers pointing to a dismissed criminal action on GZ's record. We don't know, and couldn't post it if we did, what TM has done in his past or why he was suspended and sent to his dad's in Sanford - keep in mind, juvenile records are not made public, and LE would not say one way or the other when asked about TM's background.