Meredith Kercher murdered - Amanda Knox convicted, now appeals #6

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http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

DSM-IV Definition

Antisocial personality disorder is characterized by a lack of regard for the moral or legal standards in the local culture. There is a marked inability to get along with others or abide by societal rules. Individuals with this disorder are sometimes called psychopaths or sociopaths.

Diagnostic Criteria (DSM-IV)

1. Since the age of fifteen there has been a disregard for and violation of the right's of others, those right's considered normal by the local culture, as indicated by at least three of the following:
A. Repeated acts that could lead to arrest.
B. Conning for pleasure or profit, repeated lying, or the use of aliases.
C. Failure to plan ahead or being impulsive.
D. Repeated assaults on others.
E. Reckless when it comes to their or others safety.
F. Poor work behavior or failure to honor financial obligations.
G. Rationalizing the pain they inflict on others.

2. At least eighteen years in age.

3. Evidence of a Conduct Disorder, with its onset before the age of fifteen.

4. Symptoms not due to another mental disorder.
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Lots more info at the link. Disclaimer: I am providing this information so the diagnostic criteria for an Antisocial Personality Disorder. I am not diagnosing anyone nor attempting to do so.
 
Nova said:
One can't miss the irony that the prosecutor wants AK to serve additional time for slander, but the officials who told her she was HIV+ apparently go unpunished.
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yes this little piece of information is oft overlooked
 
flourish said:
http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html



Lots more info at the link. Disclaimer: I am providing this information so the diagnostic criteria for an Antisocial Personality Disorder. I am not diagnosing anyone nor attempting to do so.
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I personally don't believe anyone can label anyone with such a term unless they first have the medical expertise and secondly have been involved appropriately with the diagnosis. It is why i personally try never to pin a label on any individual
 
otto said:
Good question. Amanda is supposed to be an intelligent, well educated woman from a good, albeit divorced, family. She was in an Italian police station, and appears to have severely underestimated the seriousness of the situation. After stretching and doing gymnastics, she was told to "cut it out" and at 11:30 pm placed in a nearby room - not a room equipped for interrogation (video).
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This certainly could all be true.
otto said:
From here, we are to believe that Amanda was swarmed by 10 or more police officers who were yelling at her and hitting her. In less than two hours, she came up with an elaborate story about Patrick, Meredith, her fear of Patrick, Patrick's infatuation with Meredith, the scream, how she stood in the kitchen covering her ears but did not run to the nearby door for help when hearing the scream, and ... did I miss anything?
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We dont know how much she came up with since there is no recording but let's just say this part is true as well.

otto said:
Coerced confessions are typically situations where the details of the confession are fed by police to the accused. If police were feeding confession details to Amanda, why didn't they ensure that the story they gave her was consistent with the story from Raffaele, or coerce her into saying that she was involved in the actual attack - as that is certainly the police theory?
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It seems they were insinuating to her they had a suspicious text and solid proof she was there. They were threatening her with 30yrs in prison unless she came clean about what happened. We cannot know how much was "fed" to her without a recording.

otto said:
There was a recent report on CNN about the NC forensic lab problems, and one of the cases was about a man with the mental abilities of a 7 year old. It took 9 hours to get a confession from him ... and then it was little more than the authority writing a statement and having him sign it ... and he incorrectly spelled his name. If a man with the mental ability of a 7 year old can withstand coercion for 9 hours, how can someone like Amanda cave after less than 2?
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Perhaps an incompetent person takes longer to understand what police want from them? I dont really know. Comprehension would certainly be diminished.
Look at Kevin Fox. He, a 27yr old father of two, caved a few hours after they told him they told him he lied and failed his voluntary Ld test (he didnt fail) and they had absolute proof that he did it (they didnt) but that if he admitted it was an accident, he could be let go on bond. Otherwise, he would have murder charges and go to prison for 30yrs (sound familiar?). Then he made up the details of how he accidently killed his 4yr old daughter Riley. How could that happen?
 
Allusonz said:
you forgot the blood tests
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I must have missed something in our previous conversations about the testing. I was under the impression that she was given one urine test several days after the murder and that was that.

When did the blood test(s) occur?
 
Allusonz said:
I personally don't believe anyone can label anyone with such a term unless they first have the medical expertise and secondly have been involved appropriately with the diagnosis. It is why i personally try never to pin a label on any individual
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Uh, hence the "Disclaimer: I am providing this information so the diagnostic criteria for an Antisocial Personality Disorder. I am not diagnosing anyone nor attempting to do so."

I was very clear that I was providing further information that I thought would supplement the information you provided earlier...so if you're indicating that I was labeling someone, you are incorrect...were you labeling when you provided that information earlier? :waitasec:
 
trillian said:
This certainly could all be true.

We dont know how much she came up with since there is no recording but let's just say this part is true as well.


It seems they were insinuating to her they had a suspicious text and solid proof she was there. They were threatening her with 30yrs in prison unless she came clean about what happened. We cannot know how much was "fed" to her without a recording.



Perhaps an incompetent person takes longer to understand what police want from them? I dont really know. Comprehension would certainly be diminished.
Look at Kevin Fox. He, a 27yr old father of two, caved a few hours after they told him they told him he lied and failed his voluntary Ld test (he didnt fail) and they had absolute proof that he did it (they didnt) but that if he admitted it was an accident, he could be let go on bond. Otherwise, he would have murder charges and go to prison for 30yrs (sound familiar?). Then he made up the details of how he accidently killed his 4yr old daughter Riley. How could that happen?
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Police often use the tactic of telling someone they have proof of more than they have ... that in itself does not result in false confessions.

Not the old trick of "you will get 30 years in jail unless you confess" ... anyone with a mental capacity that exceeds that of a 7 year old should understand that the confession results in 30 years in jail, not the other way around.

What do you mean by a "few hours"?
 
otto said:
Police often use the tactic of telling someone they have proof of more than they have ... that in itself does not result in false confessions.

Not the old trick of "you will get 30 years in jail unless you confess" ... anyone with a mental capacity that exceeds that of a 7 year old should understand that the confession results in 30 years in jail, not the other way around.

What do you mean by a "few hours"?
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I believe they had him for a total of 14 hours iirc. Not sure how long after the LD test and the confession though. How long would it take you to admit to killing your own daughter? I'm sure most of us would like to think it impossible under any circumstance. Do you think Kevin was mentally challenged?
 
trillian said:
I believe they had him for a total of 14 hours iirc. Not sure how long after the LD test and the confession though. How long would it take you to admit to killing your own daughter? I'm sure most of us would like to think it impossible under any circumstance. Do you think Kevin was mentally challenged?
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Patrick Lumumba had no difficulty withstanding the coercion for 2 weeks. I do not at all believe that Knox was fed statements, or that she was beaten and forced to confess in less than 120 minutes. I think Knox chose to point a finger at Patrick because she expected that she would be allowed to leave the police station ... but she overlooked the fact that if she could accuse someone, then she was present during the murder. On CSI, witnesses that accuse others are not arrested ... and CSI has been stated, by Knox, as her source for crime drama.
 
From Psychology Today:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/200304/the-false-confession

A particularly vulnerable defendant may begin to doubt his or her own memory when presented with false evidence. Children and the mentally handicapped, or people whose recollections are clouded by drugs or alcohol, are particularly susceptible. Interrogators may suggest that a suspect has repressed the memory. They then offer false evidence to fill in the gaps. After intense interrogation, these suspects become sufficiently convinced of their own guilt and accept an "internalized" false confession.
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Does this not fit Amanda's circumstance and in fact exactly match what she said happened the next day?
 
otto said:
Patrick Lumumba had no difficulty withstanding the coercion for 2 weeks. I do not at all believe that Knox was fed statements, or that she was beaten and forced to confess in less than 120 minutes. I think Knox chose to point a finger at Patrick because she expected that she would be allowed to leave the police station ... but she overlooked the fact that if she could accuse someone, then she was present during the murder. On CSI, witnesses that accuse others are not arrested ... and CSI has been stated, by Knox, as her source for crime drama.
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That Patrick didnt confess does not mean that AK would not. This is really bad logic. Not everyone takes the bait.

And further, if she was going to point the finger, then why not at Rudy? Why did she point to Patrick, the very man they were insinuating from the text message? Why not Rudy?

And if she was protecting Rudy, then why clean up her "evidence" and leave all of his?

It doesnt make sense to incriminate him and protect him at the same time. He was a she barely knew.

And the logical reason is that she did not have ANY memory of what happened because she was not there. She invented the one fed to her.
 
Jade said:
It certainly isn’t a catch phase or a misuse of term by me when expressing my opinion.

It is complex and has implications throughout the justice system most practically when it comes to release of diagnosed individuals and perceptions of their rehabilitation.

It is important these disorders not be trivialized but understood by the general public both for their own safety and the safety of others.

Sweeping the disorders under the rug especially as they are becoming more defined and understood is counterproductive to protecting society.

To be dismissive of media and the general public for recognizing and referring to the disorders is an insult to all mental health professional who work to educate the public

All imo
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Nothing trivializes a diagnostic term like diagnosing people based on media reports and third-hand accounts of casual behavior.
 
Jade said:
The lack of comparisons is self evident.

There is no need to go off on a tangent to defend a comparison that is farfetched.
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If it were self-evident you would be able to point out where and how the analogy is unfair. That does not appear to be the case.
 
otto said:
Police often use the tactic of telling someone they have proof of more than they have ... that in itself does not result in false confessions.
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YES, IT DOES! Not always, but all too often. Read the info at Malkmus link above on coerced testimony. At least a third of people are highly suggestible and easily convinced of things that are not true. Others simply say whatever they think will get them out of the immediate pressure, without considering the ramifications down the road.

Not the old trick of "you will get 30 years in jail unless you confess" ... anyone with a mental capacity that exceeds that of a 7 year old should understand that the confession results in 30 years in jail, not the other way around....
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I don't think that's how it's actually put to suspects. More often the suspect is told if s/he cooperates s/he will go free, but if not, s/he will be charged as an accomplice. Yes, suspects are foolish to fall for such a ruse, but we know for a fact that many do.
 
trillian said:
That Patrick didnt confess does not mean that AK would not. This is really bad logic. Not everyone takes the bait.

And further, if she was going to point the finger, then why not at Rudy? Why did she point to Patrick, the very man they were insinuating from the text message? Why not Rudy?

And if she was protecting Rudy, then why clean up her "evidence" and leave all of his?

It doesnt make sense to incriminate him and protect him at the same time. He was a she barely knew.

And the logical reason is that she did not have ANY memory of what happened because she was not there. She invented the one fed to her.
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Exactly. And worth repeating.
 
otto said:
Why not? She had no problem describing the murder as "yucky"

"AMANDA KNOX yesterday startled the Italian court trying her for the murder of Meredith Kercher by saying the English student's death was “yucky, disgusting” and comparing it to crimes in CSI, the popular US television series"

"Knox said she considered Kercher a friend. Had she suffered for the death of her friend, Maresca asked? “Yes, I was very shocked.” Did she remember Kercher in her daily life? “Yes I remember her; but, in the end I knew her for a month, and first of all I’m trying to get on with my life.”


http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article6493655.ece
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Allusonz said MK could not say whether they were good friends. She was tragically murdered.

And I bet it did look to her to be out of a TV show. All those forensics teams and police descending on the cottage. Something most of us only see on TV.

I bet a murder scene is yucky and disgusting from what she heard. I fail to see your point here. Is this too blunt?

The media frenzy on the case was overbearing. Being asked about Meredith all the time much have seemed a bit much to Amanda who didnt know her that well. Letting people know she only knew her a month seems appropriate. You dont want that feeling of getting false sympathy. That is reserved for close friends and family, who knew her well and suffered enormous loss.
 
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