FL - 17-yo Boy Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #2

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Trayvon Martin's shooter should likely be charged, avoid immunity, law's authors say


But the lawmakers who crafted the legislation in 2005 - former Sen. Durell Peaden and current state Rep. Dennis Baxley - said the law doesn't need to be changed. They believe it has been misapplied in the shooting death of Trayvon by a Sanford crime-watch captain, George Zimmerman.

"They got the goods on him. They need to prosecute whoever shot the kid," said Peaden, a Republican who sponsored the deadly force law in 2005. "He has no protection under my law."



Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/20/3503709/trayvon-martins-shooter-should.html#storylink=cpy

http://www.kansascity.com/2012/03/20/3503709/trayvon-martins-shooter-should.html
 
Does anyone know of Zimmerman was gainfully employed or did he live out his fantasies as armed neighborhood watch captain?
 
annalia said:
my bolding

Great point, and if Trayvon was on top of GZ wouldn't GZ have been covered in blood?
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I am thinking that yes, if Tray was shot while he was on top of GZ, then they both would have been covered. The average human has approximately 5 liters of blood, to bleed out in the few minutes from the time of the shot to the arrival of the police the bullet would have had to hit an artery. An arterial spurt can pump out a liter of blood in 5 minutes or less, and if you lose 2.24 liters you are not likely to survive.

that equates the the amount of liquid in a 2 liter bottle of soda that would be lost before you show no blood pressure. So there would have been blood, and lots of it.

ETA which begs the question why the police report states that the investigating officer attempted to solicit information from Tray and states that he was unresponsive....IMO nobody seeing all that blood would not realize that the person on the ground was either in extremis or already deceased.
 
chefmom said:
I have posted in the Lawyers thread on the KC forum asking for help on explaining the Stand Your Ground law. Mr. Hornsby was visiting, so maybe we will get lucky and he will come give us a good explanation of it. Being from Orlando, he would be the perfect one to explain it. I would like to hear from a local attorney how they think it will fit with this situation.
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Hey, chefmom. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so if Mr. H stopped by, I'm sure he understands Florida law better than I do. My reading of the statute (FSA 776.013(3)):

* The person attempting to use the defense must have been ATTACKED by the other person; and

* At the time that the person was attacked, he cannot have been engaging in any UNLAWFUL ACTIVITY (e.g., assault, battery, or false imprisonment, just to name a few things at random against which I presume Florida has laws).

So IMO this is not an automatic "Get Out of Jail Free Card" at all, and I assume the potential defendant (GZ) would have the burden of proving that he was attacked and was not doing anything unlawful at the time. His own testimony would be evidence in his favor, I assume, but the police shouldn't give up on a case just because the potential defendant says he's innocent! :waitasec:
 
I'm wondering...when the DOJ or FBI enhance the 911 calls, and determine who was screaming---if it was NOT GZ--doesn't that make all of the Stand Your Ground talk irrelevant?

I noticed in the report that GZ offered that he was screaming for help and that no one would help him. The officer says he did not ask GZ any investigative questions (not verbatim)...Makes me wonder...
 
Jasmine Rand is on MSNBC saying that the racial slurs are not in the original 911 tapes the family's lawyers received from the police.

She has no idea where that version came from. Lawrence O'Donnell says it came from a TV station.

Did the police doctor the tape or someone else???
 
HiHater said:
I'm wondering...when the DOJ or FBI enhance the 911 calls, and determine who was screaming---if it was NOT GZ--doesn't that make all of the Stand Your Ground talk irrelevant?

I noticed in the report that GZ offered that he was screaming for help and that no one would help him. The officer says he did not ask GZ any investigative questions (not verbatim)...Makes me wonder...
Click to expand...

IMO it does, since it is highly unlikely that Trayvon was screaming for help while beating GZ unmercifully, and doing enough damage to make him fear for his life.

It doesn't mean that GZ can't assert a Court room defense of self defense, but it would take a Judge with the midset of the Pinellas 12 to allow it to prevail
 
HiHater said:
Jasmine Rand is on MSNBC saying that the racial slurs are not in the original 911 tapes the family's lawyers received from the police.

She has no idea where that version came from. Lawrence O'Donnell says it came from a TV station.

Did the police doctor the tape or someone else???
Click to expand...

Can they rerelease the "original call?" Because it sure did spred rapidly to all of the major news sites I went to?
 
While on the phone with the 911 operator, why did Zimmerman not want to give his home address?
 
Isabelle said:
While on the phone with the 911 operator, why did Zimmerman not want to give his home address?
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He said he didn't know where "the kid" was at, and didn't want to give all of that out.
 
I said the same thing in post #113. It seems odd for him to fall on top of GZ and when GZ moves TM off his hands end up underneath. Once GZ pushed TM off him to the side, the opposite arm will drag across GZ body and be out. There should be high velocity blood spatter on GZ shirt from that shot. I bet the lab didn't even take GZ clothes to test for the angle of the blood pattern.

Sensei said:
Yes, it is this type of thing that makes it clear that we need the Autopsy reports, they need to show evidence that the gunshot was very close, in fact the only way this can be possible is if it is a contact wound with gsr all over the front of Tray's shirt, and of course I would bet they don't have GZ's shirt to confirm the gsr all over it which would be there if Tray was shot while on top of GZ. Angle of the wound would also tell a lot about the position of each man, and this scenario still begs the question of how Tray's body ended up face down with his hands under him when LE found him...

So many question and just no answers, not because they weren't there, but because nobody cared to look for them.
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Horace Finklestein said:
It seems like that would be better for GZ, and the defense angle.
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While it really doesn't help a lot, it shows tht they were infact close and struggling with each other and does nothing to show which man started the altercation

Lack of blood on him, other than random gsr and spatter however would utterly and completely gut and devastate his claim of self defense, since you would only get that if you shot the person from some distance 2 to 3 feet or more, and it is hard to claim you are being attacked if the person is that far away. But as I mentioned before, it is not likely that Le even collected GZ's shirt...
 
Horace Finklestein said:
It seems like that would be better for GZ, and the defense angle.
Click to expand...

This is true. I have to say though, in the preliminary report (if that's what it's called) the officer notes that GZ's back is wet and covered in grass. If the front of his shirt was covered in blood, I'm sure the officer would mention that too.
 
AZlawyer said:
Hey, chefmom. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so if Mr. H stopped by, I'm sure he understands Florida law better than I do. My reading of the statute (FSA 776.013(3)):

* The person attempting to use the defense must have been ATTACKED by the other person; and

* At the time that the person was attacked, he cannot have been engaging in any UNLAWFUL ACTIVITY (e.g., assault, battery, or false imprisonment, just to name a few things at random against which I presume Florida has laws).

So IMO this is not an automatic "Get Out of Jail Free Card" at all, and I assume the potential defendant (GZ) would have the burden of proving that he was attacked and was not doing anything unlawful at the time. His own testimony would be evidence in his favor, I assume, but the police shouldn't give up on a case just because the potential defendant says he's innocent! :waitasec:
Click to expand...

Thanks so much, AZ! That is how I am interpreting it with my laymans brain. It's nice to have you legal minds to help us understand these things clearly so we aren't confused! :)
 
HiHater said:
This is true. I have to say though, in the preliminary report (if that's what it's called) the officer notes that GZ's back is wet and covered in grass. If the front of his shirt was covered in blood, I'm sure the officer would mention that too.
Click to expand...

Maybe he fell backwards as he shot trayvon. Considering it was raining isnt it possible he slipped backwards?
 
AZlawyer said:
Hey, chefmom. I haven't read all the posts in this thread, so if Mr. H stopped by, I'm sure he understands Florida law better than I do. My reading of the statute (FSA 776.013(3)):

* The person attempting to use the defense must have been ATTACKED by the other person; and

* At the time that the person was attacked, he cannot have been engaging in any UNLAWFUL ACTIVITY (e.g., assault, battery, or false imprisonment, just to name a few things at random against which I presume Florida has laws).

So IMO this is not an automatic "Get Out of Jail Free Card" at all, and I assume the potential defendant (GZ) would have the burden of proving that he was attacked and was not doing anything unlawful at the time. His own testimony would be evidence in his favor, I assume, but the police shouldn't give up on a case just because the potential defendant says he's innocent! :waitasec:
Click to expand...

Hey AZLawyer!!!

Police have not said anything about having any photographic evidence of George Zimmerman's "injuries." We have no idea if the shirt George Zimmerman was wearing that night was taken into evidence.

If LE was really doing an "investigation" don't you think this evidence would have been needed to be documented and photographed? What possible reason can you think of that it wasn't?

I am only suspecting that this evidence wasn't photographed/collected because I think the Sanford Police would have released them with the 911 tapes?
 
At least until the riots start.


HiHater said:
The live vigil is VERY interesting to me...

big thanks to whoever posted the link!!!

ETA: They are calling for Police Chief Bill Lee to be fired by 26 March, or they will refuse all police services...
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