Forensic Astrology - CAYLEE ANTHONY Reported missing 7/15/2008 #16

Thank you Leomoon, I think we all want the truth... whatever that looks like. I have wondered about this more than anything in this case. I sure wish we could get the Anthony's birth times?

Housemouse knows a lot about midpoints, unfortunately she has taken leave to care for her husband. When Soulscape and Tuba return they can give their perspective as well.

My only interaction with the courts & the law was serving as a juror on a home invasion case with 5 counts & 2 special circumstances. The state presented the facts - the defense refuted the facts and insinuated that someone else planted all the evidence (a co-worker at an apt. complex). We saw through this foil & found him guilty. My point is the defense in any case will bring in stuff that may not be true.

The myth of Nessus is he attempted to rape Heracles wife - Heracles killed him. As a final act of malice, Nessus told Deianira, as he lay dying, that his blood would ensure that Heracles would be true to her forever. The wife believed him & spread some of Nessus blood on a shirt which Heracles wore to a party. She spilled a bit of blood on the floor & "To her horror, it began to fume by the light of the rising sun." Heracles died.


Nessus seems to represent poison - poisoned lies. The rape was thwarted.

KC has "Lie" 21:51 Rx SAG conjunct "Nessus" 22:48 Rx SAG.

Does this mean something that happened to her or something she does? What does the evidence say in the persons' life? Does this person spread poison lies?

Caylee has Pluto 21:58 Rx SAG. Poor little child.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nessus_(mythology)

:seeya: I took a look at a few astrology forums and was surprised to see how much their opinions differ from that of our astrologers'. In fact, I'm stunned, since our astrologers have been "right on" in the overwhelming majority of cases we've studied. There's also the fact that Casey has been content to sit in jail for three years for an accident! Boggles the mind. One well-known astrology site has an entire thread dedicated to Casey's innocence begun during jury selection. I visit the site occasionally but never saw anything related to the Anthonys there before now, I guess I wasn't looking for it. :waitasec: They're not totally relying on astrology though and believe GA is Caylee's father, not taking into account that if Lee can't be her father, neither can GA, since Caylee has alleles which neither LA nor GA carry.

Anyway, it's still an interesting read. Don't know if I'm allowed to link it. Reading those other boards gives a different perspective though. A fine example how two people can look at the same thing and see something completely different. At least one person points them to us and sings our praises. :fireworks:

On Noel Tyl's site, someone says Casey was born at 3:10 PM in Warren, but doesn't say where that information was found. :waitasec: It would give her a Leo Ascendant (sign of royalty!, arrogance), plus her vertical axis would be leaning toward the 3rd/9th houses, not something I'd expect of someone in a high-profile murder case.

VidaRose said:

Dear Leomoon,

Could this be the clash we are seeing now between ICA and GA due to the allegations made by the defense against GA on ICA’s behalf? I just don’t see GA involved in truly abusing any woman in any interpretation I can come up with. I am inexperienced with charts though..

Click to expand...

That is an excellent point. It is hard to tell the difference, imo.
From my experience, I do not think it is possible to accurately differentiate between various outcomes in chart connections. In other words, we ALL have free will. Nobody can look at a child and fathers chart and predict from their inter-aspects that the father will absolutely rape that child. Those aspects, like Venus square Pluto, and Saturn opposed Chiron can play out in a myriad of ways.

Imo, the Venus square Pluto is a basic control issue. George hated the way Casey behaved. He was old school, she was a lazy, free spirit.

And I think the midpoints which some astrologers say indicate child abuse could just as easily indicate the FALSE accusations of child abuse. As a matter of fact I do not think there is a way to differentiate between the two by just comparing natal charts. The aspects mimic each other. And as I already stated, WE HAVE FREE WILL. A natal chart comparison cannot say anything like a child was raped by her father with certainty because that would take away all sense of free will, which is not the purpose of astrological studies, imo.

In other words, no one would be able to look at Casey's chart when she was born and compare it to her fathers and say with certainty that those squares between Venus/pluto etc. will mean that he will rape that child. Doing so would mean that life is pre-determined. All one can say is that there would be intensity in sexual issues and it will remain to be seen. And it could just as easily be that those aspects describe his anger towards her wild behavior and her false rape accusations.

[ okay, rant over--sorry]:rant:

p.s.
My husband has Pluto square our daughters Venus. He has never abused her and NEVER would.
They do butt heads sometimes and are both passionate stubborn souls, imo.

Thank you katydid - finally a voice of reason on this subject.

katydid23 said:

That is an excellent point. It is hard to tell the difference, imo.
From my experience, I do not think it is possible to accurately differentiate between various outcomes in chart connections. In other words, we ALL have free will. Nobody can look at a child and fathers chart and predict from their inter-aspects that the father will absolutely rape that child. Those aspects, like Venus square Pluto, and Saturn opposed Chiron can play out in a myriad of ways.

Imo, the Venus square Pluto is a basic control issue. George hated the way Casey behaved. He was old school, she was a lazy, free spirit.

And I think the midpoints which some astrologers say indicate child abuse could just as easily indicate the FALSE accusations of child abuse. As a matter of fact I do not think there is a way to differentiate between the two by just comparing natal charts. The aspects mimic each other. And as I already stated, WE HAVE FREE WILL. A natal chart comparison cannot say anything like a child was raped by her father with certainty because that would take away all sense of free will, which is not the purpose of astrological studies, imo.

In other words, no one would be able to look at Casey's chart when she was born and compare it to her fathers and say with certainty that those squares between Venus/pluto etc. will mean that he will rape that child. Doing so would mean that life is pre-determined. All one can say is that there would be intensity in sexual issues and it will remain to be seen. And it could just as easily be that those aspects describe his anger towards her wild behavior and her false rape accusations.

[ okay, rant over--sorry]:rant:

p.s.
My husband has Pluto square our daughters Venus. He has never abused her and NEVER would.
They do butt heads sometimes and are both passionate stubborn souls, imo.

Click to expand...

Leomoon80 said:

People in the astro communities are discussing G.A. Nessus in his natal chart as well as the Midpoints between his Synastry with C.A. as for mitigation of the defense and it's charges against him., as well as the defense's contention that GA helped hide the death of Cayley Anthony.

I've not used NESSUS myself in the charts although it's easily added on as an important asteroid at astro.com along with the Black Moon, Lilith and other options one might add. , but I must say, there is a lot to be gained and at least thought about now that these charges have been brought to light, for being unbiased when it comes to Astrology delineations and the charts of all parties who had access to Cayley (the victim) as you all know.

Here is a little I've found about Nessus today online:

Asteroids: Nessus, (sex abuse)


From: http://www.astroknowlogy.com/questions/what-is-the-influence-of-the-asteroid-nessus

As for the natal chart (and I wish we had times of birth ) of all being accused,(i.e. State blames CA and Defense blames G.A. ) but we do not as of today, have the times of birth yet.

Composite Chart of C.A. and her father, G.A. reveals:



Venus square Pluto, Sun/Nessus - midpoint conjunct to Venus

Moon/Saturn Midpoint is also square to Nessus

Click to expand...

Thanks, Leomoon. I read this last night and wanted to think about it a little. I am not an astrologer and need kindergarten interpretation, as you all know, but I also know that the stars do not lie. However, our interpretations can be different. I am having a hard time because I don't want to believe GA abused ICA just because of my feeling toward ICA and because I now see him as a broken man. However, I have treated many survivors of childhood sexual abuse and my tendancy is to be for them and believe them. Not all who accuse are sexually abused, but many who accuse are not believed.

Taking a deep breath here --- I think we all may be a little biased and - if I may say it - are we seeking an interpretation we want to believe and discarding the one we do not like???? :fence:

Wow! Everyone here has completely valid, yet differing, points.

If I were George (being ex law enforcement) the first thing I would say would be "hook me up for a polygraph test". Just sayin'.

Frigga said:

Wow! Everyone here has completely valid, yet differing, points.

If I were George (being ex law enforcement) the first thing I would say would be "hook me up for a polygraph test". Just sayin'.

Click to expand...

I agree Frigga, it's very hard not to become biased with one's own emotions invested into the case as well as astrologically, as suggested, it's a subjective interpretation upon an objective natal position. Can go two ways depending upon many factors, and that is why it takes setting aside the emotions to approach a case from the most objective vantage point possible.

Quite honestly, and all of us can see this, just by a "thanks" we can see subjective rendering, on what meets our subjective approval and what theories we discard, and we see this all the time on the forum. Those for instance who do not believe for one second that CA is mentally ill, or discard this theory will not "thank" me, lol. That is very easy to see here.

I've said over and over, imo, Casey A. is mentally ill. I'm sure I can find something in her natal to verify my opinion in this regard.

Not having the times of birth is a real drawback for any Astrologer too, as the Angles are "super" important.

Midpoints as well may be read from varying perspectives, again, Astrology is an Art using as it's foundation and basis, astronomical points which then convert to symbology for the Astrologer and not everyone agrees with the symbols per se, most of course do, but not everyone in the same way.

As for GA and his daughter's accusations?

Well my father was seen by everyone as a "swell guy" both at his work and publically in the neighborhood and elsewhere....and I can't tell you how many times I was told this, even when my first daughter was born and he and my mom came to see me in the hospital, the girl in the next bed was very impressed with his personnae. He'd joke with my friends as a teenager, and that too would endear him to them.
Who would have believed back then?

I'd say without the anger, more a joking person, he came across as a G.A. would.

Very caring, very nice very personable, (not an angry person) by any means publically anyway.

It takes all kinds, they say; to make up a universe or a world.

As for "Free Will", I agree, we all have free will as a soul, but we also are born into vibrations that carry over, imo.

The Astrological saying is "The Stars impel they do not COMPEL", but try to give up cigarettes or chocolate when one is "impelled" to carry on with them, and you can see how difficult it is to overcome a vibration (by analogy) too.

Leomoon, I really appreciate all that you post - you, too, Frigga! I think ICA is mentally ill, but that does not excuse what I believe she has done. I go back and forth on the sexual abuse - but if it happened, it does not excuse what she did. If it did not happen, her accusations are not excusable, either. As I said, I am inclined to believe those who say it happened to them, although I have worked with false accusations, too, but those are rare. I am interested in hearing more from our astrologers. I really appreciate their interpretations.

One of the reasons I reject the theory that SA caused Casey to lie is found in her natal chart. She has Mercury retrograde in Pisces in a very tight square to Mars/Uranus in Sag. That is a textbook trait of an impulsive pathological liar. Add to that the Sun / Neptune square which is layered on top of that, and there is even more evidence of an inability to tell the truth to others.
Given that, I do not believe that SA 'caused' her lying behavior. Also, she has a very strong trine between her Venus and her Saturn. I have never seen particular beneficial aspect in the chart of a girl abused by her father. So I have to go with my gut reaction which is that Casey made it all up to cover her own self. imoo

eta:Mercury=Mars/Uranus:
A test of power carried through CALCULATINGLY.

momshrink said:

Leomoon, I really appreciate all that you post - you, too, Frigga! I think ICA is mentally ill, but that does not excuse what I believe she has done. I go back and forth on the sexual abuse - but if it happened, it does not excuse what she did. If it did not happen, her accusations are not excusable, either. As I said, I am inclined to believe those who say it happened to them, although I have worked with false accusations, too, but those are rare. I am interested in hearing more from our astrologers. I really appreciate their interpretations.

Click to expand...

My mind is wide open to either/or at this point. I can't go much farther towards absolutes without the times of birth being given as evidence for the natal charts. However, I have found some interesting observations such as the following to add here:


CA & GA composite DYNAMICS:
the composite of Casey & GA NATALS more clearly:

Venus is square to Pluto. With the Sun/Nessus midpoint see below conjunct to Venus . abuse is “possible” as shown by Jupiter square to Venus/Sun and opposed to Pluto in a traditional or objective look of the combined energies.

Casey’s natal Moon (instincts or emotions) is Quincunx (harmed) by it’s harsh aspect to Saturn
(emotions harmed in her natal chart). Similar to a square or harsh aspect , it’s indicative of one’s own childhood and inability to express emotions properly leading one to think of a person as having a “cold heart” (Alan Oken, Complete Astrology)
From what I’d surmise…..probably adding to mental and emotional illness as the Quincunx more often then not, points to medical issues.


Composite : GA & CMA i.e. Casey :
Sun/Nessus Midpoint = is 27°24’ Gem/Sag - or conj. Venus in composite chart @ 26°5’Gemini which is also Quincunx to Neptune at 26°49Scorpio!

Midpoint of Composite Venus and Mars = 22°AQ21’ /Leo
Which is a degree of self-undoing and Opposes Casey’s (natal) NESSUS 22°47’Leo ( supportive of a sexual abuse indictment) of some kind or at least supportive of her “belief” it occurred.

Enjoy your posts, as they seem well informed as to the dilemma of a sexual abuse victim and how they may function in the outer world as you apparently have been around quite a few of them.

Leomoon80 said:

My mind is wide open to either/or at this point. I can't go much farther towards absolutes without the times of birth being given as evidence for the natal charts. However, I have found some interesting observations such as the following to add here:


CA & GA composite DYNAMICS:
the composite of Casey & GA NATALS more clearly:

Venus is square to Pluto. With the Sun/Nessus midpoint see below conjunct to Venus . abuse is “possible” as shown by Jupiter square to Venus/Sun and opposed to Pluto in a traditional or objective look of the combined energies.

Casey’s natal Moon (instincts or emotions) is Quincunx (harmed) by it’s harsh aspect to Saturn
(emotions harmed in her natal chart). Similar to a square or harsh aspect , it’s indicative of one’s own childhood and inability to express emotions properly leading one to think of a person as having a “cold heart” (Alan Oken, Complete Astrology)
From what I’d surmise…..probably adding to mental and emotional illness as the Quincunx more often then not, points to medical issues.


Composite : GA & CMA i.e. Casey :
Sun/Nessus Midpoint = is 27°24’ Gem/Sag - or conj. Venus in composite chart @ 26°5’Gemini which is also Quincunx to Neptune at 26°49Scorpio!

Midpoint of Composite Venus and Mars = 22°AQ21’ /Leo
Which is a degree of self-undoing and Opposes Casey’s (natal) NESSUS 22°47’Leo ( supportive of a sexual abuse indictment) of some kind or at least supportive of her “belief” it occurred.

Enjoy your posts, as they seem well informed as to the dilemma of a sexual abuse victim and how they may function in the outer world as you apparently have been around quite a few of them.

Click to expand...

As you have already said, we can not see too much more without accurate birth times. The Venus/Pluto Square is in effect for every child born that day whose father is the same age as George. I don't think they were all abused. We need more accurate times to make that assumption, imoo.

And the Moon / Saturn inconjunct is not certain because we have no birth time. But even if it were it is not usually indicative of physical or sexual abuse, more like emotional disconnect or feelings of distance between father and mother or child. imoo

Composites are based upon the midpoint of two events, the birthcharts of two individuals. Without birthtimes the composite is useless imo. I would not want to accuse a man of being a pedophile based upon composite chart with no accurate birthtimes.

I am a SA survivor and I do like to give benefit of the doubt to SA victims. But I also see how horrible it is to assume someone is guilty of abuse on flimsy evidence. And I think the evidence of Casey being a born liar is more substantial than the evidence of her being a victim of abuse by her father. imoo

Did anyone else notice that ICA is trying to seduce at least one guy on that jury if not all? Can someone please tell me if they see any of the men on the jury buying into her damsel in distress defense, or becoming infatuated with her based on the jury charts?

CA Natal: (checking various random times for the Moon in Cancer on her birthday)


Moon in Cancer at Noon on her birthday CST = 10°38'
Moon in Cancer at 1AM that same day = 05°
Moon in Cancer at 8PM that same day =14°

Moon more then likely (probability quotient) within orb of a Quincunx to Saturn

Note:

(keeping my personal feelings out of it, just giving the Astrology here of the Moon's position this day)

katydid23 said:

AFAIK inconjuncts are given very small orbs. Usually from 0 to 3 degrees, otherwise they are actually another minor aspect. So if she was born at mid day it would be an inconjunct. But even then, Moon inconjunct Saturn is not usually an indicator of physical sexual abuse AFAIK.

Click to expand...

Do you see the Inconjunct or Quincunx aspect, as usually a medical ailment in the natal charts or pointing to same?

I'd be interested in knowing whether or not others see the same as I do, when it comes to the Quincunx often pointing to medical themes .

I do see the inconjunct as quite often being a medical theme. I do not see it as usually being a physical assault. It may be, but I am not judging the relationship between casey and her dad on only that aspect. To me, the main reason people say that they believe Casey was abused is because of her behavior. [ lying and stealing and ignoring childs death]
I see those things, that type of behavior, in Casey's natal chart. So it does not seem to be caused by the relationship between father and daughter, imoo.

Also she has a very nice trine from her Venus to her saturn, and no difficult aspects from her Pluto to any of her personal planets. In fact she has Pluto trine Moon [potentially.] And that Moon opposed Neptune tells a story of her being deceitful much more than her being physically assaulted. Again, imoo. Because both her Saturn and her pluto make nice strong beneficial aspects to Venus and the Moon, the feminine duo, I do not believe she was raped throughout her childhood. In my experience there are much more difficult aspects seen in charts of lifelong SA victims.

[ I have a fixed Grand Square involving Pluto and personal planets for example.] Her squares to Venus are from the Moon and Neptune, which to me, tells a story of her own deceitfulness. IMOO.

ETA: my posts were in response to the statements that astrologers on other boards were saying that there is reason to believe she was being abused by her father. THAT is what I am disputing, using my own opinion on the charts only.

Casey has a Trine of Venus to Saturn.


I just noticed that I too, have a Trine aspect between Saturn and Venus.

My Saturn is located 6°Leo and my Venus is located 3°Sag.
within 3 degrees of an exact trine.
My Venus however, is semi-square to Mars
He pretty much abused my younger sister and I all of our childhood, but she had more vivid memories then I from the much younger years.

Of course I came to terms with my abuser, (my father) and forgave him before he even asked.
Actually, he never asked forgiveness , but I dreamt he did after he died. I saw him with his stove on fire in a small apartment and said, "You almost burned the house down" (consciousness i see as houses)
He was telling me, he tried to call me over and over I suppose for forgiveness.

I forgave him......but also told him off, in the dream state. :crazy:

It's a shame we do not yet have Casey's time of birth, for the 2nd/8th house I learned from Magi-Astrologers is called the Axis of Desire.
My Pluto and the Moon are both in the 2nd house.

I wish we had the birth times as well. They would be fascinating charts to interpret and to compare. I am hoping some one close to the family eventually discovers the times.

Interesting, you have a trine from Venus and Saturn and were abused by father, and I have a semi-square between the two, and had a very supportive father. Hmmmmm. I guess that goes to show us that it takes a lot of aspects, the entire big picture, to determine the outcomes.

I love the Magi-Astrologers. I work a lot with the houses because that is what makes a chart personal, as opposed to the same chart everyone else born that day has. So not having the birth times is very frustrating, imo.

My question is: if the DT had not brought these allegations against GA and LA, would anyone see the indicators of of possible sexual abuse in the charts? Was there anything seen before the allegations were brought?
As you can tell, I am so undecided on this. I want so much to say that everything that comes out of ICA's mouth is a lie, but I also want to believe or at least be open to believing anyone who reports that they were are victim of sexual abuse.
I am also not sure this has any bearing on this trial. While sexual abuse may explain her behavior, it does not excuse her behavior.

I looked for child abuse and or incest a couple of years ago because of the name Cay-Lee. I thought it was kind of creepy that the child's name was a combo of the brother and sisters name. If my 19 yr old was going to have a baby [ please, hypothetical ONLY] the last thing she would do is combine her name with her older brothers. So I thought it was very odd, especially given the ' birthfather is dead' explanation.

However, imo and imo only, I did not see abuse from the father in the chart, which is usually indicated by Saturn, Jupiter or Pluto. But there is a Mercury/Mars tight square with no harmonious outlets. So, imo, she may have had some kind of sexual interactions with her brother, but I do not know if it was forced or consensual. Again, imoo.

If I had the birth times, and the 10th/4th axis were afflicted, then I would give more credence to the father being involved.

I may be entirely wrong.