WA WA - D.B. Cooper hijacking mystery, 24 Nov 1971 - #3

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Thanks Georger, I think I will stick to the hyperlink and put my pics on photobucket, it's been a long time since I even used PB.

I put my final post on DZ, I think it sums it all up....."Out To Lunch":floorlaugh:
 
Bottom line is that the av wx reports leave lots of room for the crew to have seen things on the ground (even PDX) and also for seeing glow through clouds or reflecting off the higher cloud layers.

goody nite

Reflecting last night, somone could work the physics and the weather of
this until the cows come home, but it still isn;t proof - unless someone
happened to take a photograph of "could see the lights of Portland coming
up", which I doubt. Nobody has ever contended hard evidence or even a
comment in the radio transcripts exists, and I have never found that. :banghead:

99 brought up "comments the chase pilots made"! I wonder what that is
and now I wonder if it even exists. 99 would not explain.

On the analytical side the fact of two cloud layers (~2500/3500 and
~5000 feet ?), is also a bit interesting. I assume ice crystals would have
been part of the mix. Now we are potentially talking about reflection and
re-reflection between, and within, clouds layers - potentially. And there
are several studies I have which speak of an 'amplifying effect in luminosity'
under just such conditions, as seen from above. But again, none of this amounts
to proof of anything but merely theoretical conjecture ... unless somebody happened
to snap that crucial photo or Scott actually radioed saying 'we can see Portland and
Vancouver coming up"? We know it was just after this period that the mysterious
long gap in communications (in the transcripts) occurs. 99 is convinced the Transcripts
were censored.

The fact 99 would reply citing Nuttall at all, is interesting also. Many of us
talked to Nuttall personally at the publication of his book. George was
adamant about two things, with me: (a) he was sure Jerry Thomas knew
who Cooper was, had met Cooper in the service, and (b) that Cooper
bailed near Vancouver using the lights of Vancouver-Portland "coming
up" to make his decision to bail. But, then George's book cites Grady and
Himms as saying "the crew could not see Portland-Vancouver" ? This is
one of the reasons I had to swallow hard when 99 cites Nuttall as the
official source on visibility! George needs to make up his mind, and get
his claims consistent, literally.

I take "could see the lights of Portland coming up" as official statements -
by Rataczak, Anderson, and Scott, backed up by interviews with Bohan's
crew etc etc.

And I would love to hear 99's recitation of what the chase pilots had to say,
on any issue. That is one area I know almost nothing about having never
talked to any of those people personally - has anyone else talked to them?
 
Reflecting last night, somone could work the physics and the weather of this until the cows come home, but it still isn;t proof ....

On the analytical side the fact of two cloud layers (~2500/3500 and
~5000 feet ?), is also a bit interesting. I assume ice crystals would have
been part of the mix. ....

But again, none of this amounts to proof of anything but merely theoretical conjecture ...

I've not seen any proof that the crew saw anything on the ground in the area, or that they didn't or wouldn't have been able to. The av wx reports only indicate that there was significant possibility that they could have seen something at some point while passing through the area. I think agent Carr's statement makes it near certainty that they did see lights below.

The freezing level would have been about 4000', so ice would be probable in the 5000'-base "OVC" layer.

We know it was just after this period that the mysterious long gap in communications (in the transcripts) occurs. 99 is convinced the Transcripts were censored.

I do not believe the transcripts were censored. I think that the missing communications were just over the NWA network and that info about those communications have been meticulously guarded and maybe now even lost.

The fact 99 would reply citing Nuttall at all, is interesting also. Many of us
talked to Nuttall personally at the publication of his book. George was
adamant about two things, with me: (a) he was sure Jerry Thomas knew
who Cooper was, had met Cooper in the service, and (b) that Cooper
bailed near Vancouver using the lights of Vancouver-Portland "coming
up" to make his decision to bail. But, then George's book cites Grady and
Himms as saying "the crew could not see Portland-Vancouver" ? This is
one of the reasons I had to swallow hard when 99 cites Nuttall as the
official source on visibility! George needs to make up his mind, and get
his claims consistent, literally.

I take "could see the lights of Portland coming up" as official statements -
by Rataczak, Anderson, and Scott, backed up by interviews with Bohan's
crew etc etc.

The reliability of every book about the case is so poor that none of them is good for anything other than suggesting possibilies to be checked through further research. I also believe nothing from any news sources other than the quoted statements or fragments thereof. So many of the articles have so many errors. The authors don't understand the technical aspects and don't have time to. Many now get the background info they use for most of the article from wikipedia, which is about as valid as all the other.

About the specific issue, even if I accepted that the man actually spoke to H, H himself has been a very unreliable source. I accept nothing attributed to him as fact. If I hear him say something, I don't accept it as fact. 99 has made the point that H's claim of very bad weather was untrue. I think he likes the statement attributed to H only because it fits what he wants to believe.

And I would love to hear 99's recitation of what the chase pilots had to say,
on any issue. That is one area I know almost nothing about having never
talked to any of those people personally - has anyone else talked to them?

I'm pretty sure I have not come across any claim of somebody haven spoken to any of them. 99 may have been thinking of H's helo pilot.
 
does anyone know the location where the Helo turned around due to bad weather?
 
does anyone know the location where the Helo turned around due to bad weather?

In my search of the internet for everything "Cooper" I don't think I've ever seen it, or even where the helo went that night. I've never seen anything about when the helo took off either. I can't imagine that they would even have taken off if they had not thought they were early enough to intercept north of Portland. Surely they would know if 305 was already at or south of Portland, there would be no way they could catch it. If they thought of that, why would they think they could follow the flight? All they could have hoped for is to be near the flight at almost the time the guy in back bailed.

Also, I would not bet anything worth something that the helo turned around because of bad weather.
 
I couldn't find anything either, other than Himmelsbach stating the weather was bad so they had to turn around? is there really any solid evidence in this case?



#1 Flight path...unsure
#2 Age of Cooper 35, mid 40's in his 50's???
#3 jump site I think he jumped here???
#4 weather....horrible, light rain, freezing temps????
#5 Tena Bar, money floated down, money was planted???
#6 Parachutes.....don't ask
#7 Parachutes came from Cossey, no Hayden???
#8 location of the cigarette butts....Ummmm don't know???
#9 Amboy chute....Shhhhhhh
#10 Cooper started to tumble as soon as he left the stairs? McCoy had no problem?

The list goes on for ages, it's a wonder they got the number of the flight correct! I know 99 shot me down about the stairs, but I find it hard to believe that the stairs "slamed shut" after Cooper left, the stairs measure 36" x 124" that is approx 27 S/F not counting the curved backing on the stairs that would repel wind loads, the stairs weigh 550 lbs! that's a lot of weight for such a small wind load in order to slam it above the line of gravity, I could be way off like 99 say's, but when you look at the big picture here in this case, what has been right?
 
does anyone know the location where the Helo turned around due to bad weather?

The helo took off from the Ntl Guard base at PDX with H on board.
McChord and one of the controlers helped route the helo north and they
flew a kind of zig-zag search pattern across and both sides of V23, as far
as 20 miles north of Portland. They looked for suspicious vehicle lights or
activity, and any sign of a fire (with the helo's search light off). The
search was intended to look for any sign of Cooper or suspicious activity
on the ground, not to try and intercept 305. With negative results in poor
visibility weather, they finally gave up and came back to PDX. I dont think
they spent any time looking along the Columbia or in the area just north
of Vancouver, as far as I know ?

Himmelsbach gave a published interview in 1976 in which he says the
'latest thinking is Cooper bailed about 12 miles north of Portland' and he
remarks 'had we known that at the time we would have spent more time
searching further south above Vancouver' - he is referring to his helo
search among other things. It sounds as if the bulk of the helo search
was in the Ariel-Lake Merwin area vs. nearer Vancouver.

The helo pilot was interviewed by several people still alive.
 
Also, I would not bet anything worth something that the helo turned around because of bad weather.

A person who does not post contacted me and asks this:

"Im glad to see somebody looking at the weather side. What I need from
you is some more work on any possible wind shift sceanario near Portland
Vancouver during the critical period 305 was approaching, if Cooper bailed
in that area, and any possibility of a wind shift during that period and
what could cause the winds to buffet so extreme from the SSE ??? Its not
that I believe the Bohan story exactly, but anything which shows winds
even briefly from the SSE which would take a jumper to the Northwest vs.
Northeast. What does Hominid think about that?"

[edit Georger:] Ive already told the writer there is nothing in the wx records I am
aware of, which shows the scenario he is looking for ...

G.
 
The helo took off from the Ntl Guard base at PDX with H on board.
McChord and one of the controlers helped route the helo north and they
flew a kind of zig-zag search pattern across and both sides of V23, as far
as 20 miles north of Portland. They looked for suspicious vehicle lights or
activity, and any sign of a fire (with the helo's search light off). The
search was intended to look for any sign of Cooper or suspicious activity
on the ground, not to try and intercept 305. With negative results in poor
visibility weather, they finally gave up and came back to PDX.....
....

The helo pilot was interviewed by several people still alive.

This all makes pretty good sense. Such searching could have been useful before 305 came by, and afterwards as well. And early references to "bad weather" could have been about the fact that the low-level weather was such that visibility of things on the ground was poor, not that the weather was too bad for flying.

Do you have any info as to why McChord would have been involved?

Or, specifically when the helo was anywhere in the search?

Mr...45,

I want to address a bit in your last post re. unreliable evidence, but after I do one for Geor's last.
 
We had links to that wx info on dropzone recently. It's from weatherunderground.com, not weather.com. You can also get it in graph form and over a period of days, so that you can see how the day's weather fit in with a several-day pattern.
 
Sorry Hominid, it was from weatherunderground.com, I didn't realize I wrote weather.com by mistake.
 
This all makes pretty good sense. Such searching could have been useful before 305 came by, and afterwards as well. And early references to "bad weather" could have been about the fact that the low-level weather was such that visibility of things on the ground was poor, not that the weather was too bad for flying.

Do you have any info as to why McChord would have been involved?

Or, specifically when the helo was anywhere in the search?

Let me search my notes as to time of the helo activity. Im not sure I have that info
specifically - is it in H's book? Has anyone here read H's book?

McChord (and R2)were acting as coordinators supplying flight tracking
data on a military frequency. R2 was relaying messages between frequencies
at times. My info comes from R2-R3. I am sure 99 has info about the helo
also. There was a lot going on simultaneously as 305 crossed the Columbia.
Jets dropping off, TA33's preparing to launch and join from their base at
PDX, comms between all of the parties including McChord, and R2 right in
the middle of it all. A C130 was preparing to launch from further south.
And the helo was still in search mode after 305 crossed the Columbia (I
just dont recall when it launch from Portland, if I ever knew, or when it
returned, exactly, but I will try to nail that down). The phone and comunication
activity was so intense at times controllers actually were not following their screens
at times! That is alleged to have been the case for a controler at PDX as
305 approahced. (This is an issue of much debate!)


I do have the approximate flight track the TA33's took to come in behind
and intercept 305, and where that allegedly happened. I am sure 99 has
that also because I gave him my info several years ago when he was working
up his analysis for publication on Sluggo's website. Our thought at the time
was to reverse track where 305 had to have been to be intercepted by the
TA33's below Portland. R2 personally directed the TA33's to 305, in real time.
My info came from both controllers.
 
Sorry Hominid, it was from weatherunderground.com, I didn't realize I wrote weather.com by mistake.


Yep its weather underground. Its been beat to death over on the
Dark side of the Moon! BTW any weather info I have anyone wants just
ask and I will search my files and post it - including water table data.
:rocker:
 
I just spent all this intervening time addressing the possibility of wind shift and high speed and lost it all when I tried to post it. This site logs me off on its own after a bit of time transpires without posting. I'll re-do it off-line so I can copy and paste it in to beat the clock.
 
Let me search my notes as to time of the helo activity. Im not sure I have that info
specifically - is it in H's book? Has anyone here read H's book?

McChord (and R2)were acting as coordinators supplying flight tracking
data on a military frequency. R2 was relaying messages between frequencies
at times.

I haven't read H's book. It costs too much for something so untrustworthy. I would gladly read it if the library had it, but it costs too much for them too.

I think maybe the flight tracking data was on tracking of 305 rather than the helo. The coordination between enroute air traffic control and the air defense cmd direction center at McChord (and others) was day-to-day activity for all commercial flights. The cmd tracked all but light aircraft as part of the process of identifying possible enemy flights.

I'll do a little check on the possibility that the DC might have been tracking the helo.
 
I haven't read H's book. It costs too much for something so untrustworthy. I would gladly read it if the library had it, but it costs too much for them too.

I think maybe the flight tracking data was on tracking of 305 rather than the helo. The coordination between enroute air traffic control and the air defense cmd direction center at McChord (and others) was day-to-day activity for all commercial flights. The cmd tracked all but light aircraft as part of the process of identifying possible enemy flights.

I'll do a little check on the possibility that the DC might have been tracking the helo.

I didnt mean to suggest that anyone was 'tracking the helo' - they were
tracking 305, the jets, then the ta33's. They merely tried to direct the
helo to where 305 had been. For example, I asked R2 where the helo went
and he laughed and said 'I havent the faintest idea - we didnt keep track
of that helicopter, we were too busy for that!' and he laughed again. So
I asked if the helo was ever west of PDX and he said rather sharply, "I
dont think so, he would have had no reason to go there, he went north
somewhere, about twenty miles as I remember, but again we werent
tracking the helicopter. We had too much going on. The guard was in
communication with the helicopter on another frequency". I have no idea
if the helo ever communicated directly with McChord or even could.. but
my impression is the helo was pretty much on its own and of little or no
concern to the controlers working with McChord and 305.
 
I just spent all this intervening time addressing the possibility of wind shift and high speed and lost it all when I tried to post it. This site logs me off on its own after a bit of time transpires without posting. I'll re-do it off-line so I can copy and paste it in to beat the clock.

I know. Click the remember me button when you sign in.
 
A person who does not post contacted me and asks this:

"Im glad to see somebody looking at the weather side. What I need from
you is some more work on any possible wind shift sceanario near Portland
Vancouver during the critical period 305 was approaching, if Cooper bailed
in that area, and any possibility of a wind shift during that period and
what could cause the winds to buffet so extreme from the SSE ??? Its not
that I believe the Bohan story exactly, but anything which shows winds
even briefly from the SSE which would take a jumper to the Northwest vs.
Northeast. What does Hominid think about that?"

....

G.

From what data the coop community has found so far, I've seen no hint of such a wind shift or high wind speed. The data even seems to preclude it because all the data adds up to a persistent, mild pattern over a wide area and spanning the likely jump time by hours. Large, abrupt perturbations are extremely unlikely in the midst of such a pattern. The jetstream was nowhere near the area.

Still, the coverage of our data is limited. Agent Carr apparently had something in his file about the weather that he claimed to apply at very close to the time and place. Unfortunately, he was not pressed about background of the data. The wind direction and drift distance shown on the searchzone map acquired from the FBI is entirely consistent with the info from Carr, and this was done with info from NWA's meteorologist.

We have detailed data for Portland International Airport (PDX) for 7, 8, 9 and 10pm from a combination of weather service data available at weatherunderground.com and two aviation weather reports printed out on the evening. We have data only for 8pm and 9pm for Troutdale airport and Toledo airport. We have surface weather charts for early that morning and early the next.

All of what we have is consistent with what Carr said for about 8:15, so it seems unlikely that anything anomolous occurred abruptly in the area around jump time.

As to possible cause for such wind shift: It would be large pressure gradient shift, which would mean the isobar pattern changed considerably in the area. Pressure gradient change, in turn, would be caused by abrupt temperature gradient change. If we had a surface weather chart for close to 8pm, we might spot such changes. I've estimated such a chart from av weather reports for the few stations in the area. It seemed to fit right in with all the other data we have.
 
I didnt mean to suggest that anyone was 'tracking the helo' - they were
tracking 305, the jets, then the ta33's. They merely tried to direct the
helo to where 305 had been....

Your post makes sense. I didn't really think you were suggesting that the airforce was tracking the helo, but it's good to confirm.

And, thanks for the info about staying logged in.
 
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