Max's Search Warrants Released!!!! Discuss Max's Death here #2

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oceanblueeyes said:
So which comes first? The cardiac arrest or the loss of breath?

In sudden cardiac arrest, the heart stops beating, and blood is not supplied to the body. The presentation is not subtle. Almost immediate loss of consciousness occurs, and the affected person will not be able to be aroused. The person will fall or slump over. No pulse will be able to be palpated, and there will be no signs of breathing.



http://www.medicinenet.com/sudden_cardiac_death/page3.htm
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cardiac arrest is first. Breathing is useless if the heart is not circulating oxygenated blood to the brain.

That's why traditional CPR training included rescue breathing plus chest compressions.

JMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Did Reeves immediately go into cardiac arrest?

tia

IMO
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From Wikipedia.com: [ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_reeves"]Christopher Reeve - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:C_Reeve_in_Marriage_of_Figaro_Opening_night_1985.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/C_Reeve_in_Marriage_of_Figaro_Opening_night_1985.jpg/250px-C_Reeve_in_Marriage_of_Figaro_Opening_night_1985.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/2/2e/C_Reeve_in_Marriage_of_Figaro_Opening_night_1985.jpg/250px-C_Reeve_in_Marriage_of_Figaro_Opening_night_1985.jpg[/ame]

On May 27, 1995, Reeve's horse had a refusal. Reeve fell and sustained a cervical spinal injury that paralyzed him from the neck down.[49] He had no recollection of the incident. Witnesses said that Buck started the jump over the third fence, and then suddenly stopped. Someone said that a rabbit spooked the horse, and another person claimed that it might have been a shadow. Reeve held on and the bridle, the bit, and the reins were pulled off the horse and tied his hands together. He landed headfirst on the other side of the fence. His helmet prevented any brain damage, but the impact of his 215 pound (98 kg) body hitting the ground shattered his first and second vertebrae. Reeve had not been breathing for three minutes before paramedics arrived. He was taken to the local hospital, and then flown by helicopter to the University of Virginia Medical Center.[50]
 
Thanks for the information MyBelle and Quester.

So if Max could have been revived in less than 5 minutes he perhaps could have lived?

Is a spinal cord contusion always fatal?

I see where Reeves had two shattered vertebrae.

IMO
 
MyBelle said:
According to the AR, RZ was not doing CPR when the officer arrived on scene.
Also, according to the AR, CPR was started after EMT's arrived. The EMT's manually pumped the heart and gave oxygen until the heart resumed beating.

According to both the ICU Chief and the ME, the initial lack of oxygenated blood to the BRAIN resulted in brain death. We can argue forever about whether or not his heart stopped because of the fall or suffocation but the result to Max was the same. Those first minutes of unpumped blood killed him.

RZ was a certified medical technician who worked for surgeons. So, yes, I do question why she was not performing CPR on Max when the officer arrived.
If she had done so, the outcome may be different.

CPR wasn't started in the first several minutes
A very odd pattern of abrasions down the boy's back
An unexplained scooter on top of him
Unexplained balls
Unexplained cut shirt
A claim he said "ocean"
Deep cuts to a girl's leg who was said to be in the shower at the time

All, add up to a very suspicious death of a small child.

JMO
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Pls. refer to my previous comment in this thread. On p. 2 of MS autopsy report, it states that MS heart did not resume beating as a result of CPR. It took two separate injections of epinephrine to restart his heart. Prior to that, EMS had performed CPR for 25 minutes with no response.

Neither RZ's nor the EMS team's CPR could have restarted circulation in this case. Only epi injections worked.

That should put to rest any questions about RZ's efforts at CPR.

ETA: again, check the autopsy report. RZ was performing CPR. Also bear in mind the EMS team arrived at the home within a couple of minutes of the 911 call.
 
CDS22 said:
Yes, it does, and that is the part that I disagree with. Hitting a railing wouldn't cause abrasions (IMO) but rather a contusion. He had abrasions on his back.
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The abrasions have already been thoroughly explained as have each and every question that you've purposed.. They have been answered point for point with cordial and intelligent answers to each point for point.. The dr who some are dependant upon for their theory has been 100% disproved by a thorough autopsy that it within itself answers all the questions as to dispel all of the proven false allegations by a doctor who was very mistaken in his assumptions..

As far as speaking of a minor child and accusing her of involvement in a theory of harming Max its abhorrent IMO.. Going as far as to make statements about a child in a rage more than capable of lifting a child their size or greater.. It's abhorrent IMO!

Once again..
This is very likely where the abrasions came from..
As far as abrasions vs. lacerations this is extremely likely given the interior walls the Spreckles mansion are identical to mine in texture and color with interior stucco.. When Max came down in this violent fall, as is shown ^above^ in the demo he quite likely would have made contact with this stucco wall.. Which I can attest causes severe abrasions as anyone can see for themselves by running their hand along interior out outdoor textured stucco.. It is more than capable
Of making abrasions from light to extreme depending on the amount of pressure behind the body part coming into contact with the rough stucco..
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Betty P said:
Pls. refer to my previous comment in this thread. On p. 2 of MS autopsy report, it states that MS heart did not resume beating as a result of CPR. It took two separate injections of epinephrine to restart his heart. Prior to that, EMS had performed CPR for 25 minutes with no response.

Neither RZ's nor the EMS team's CPR could have restarted circulation in this case. Only epi injections worked.

That should put to rest any questions about RZ's efforts at CPR.

ETA: again, check the autopsy report. RZ was performing CPR. Also bear in mind the EMS team arrived at the home within a couple of minutes of the 911 call.
Click to expand...

You don't seem to understand the purpose of CPR and why there have been so much focus on training in the last 40 years by groups such as Red Cross and AHA. It can keep people alive until EMT's arrive. I've performed it on two people, who did survive.

No, the AR does not state RZ was performing CPR. It cites the first officer who said she told him she had performed some rescue breathes. The child was lying there with no CPR being performed, according to the officer.

CPR chest compressions continue to pump the heart so that blood continues to circulate. CPR is better than no CPR.

JMO
 
oceanblueeyes said:
Did Reeves immediately go into cardiac arrest?

tia

IMO
Click to expand...

IDK

The fact of the matter is that Christopher Reeve sustained cervical spine injuries that resulted in paralysis after being thrown from a horse. MS sustained cervical spine injuries after falling from a 2nd story landing, and subsequently died from those injuries after being removed from life support equipment when it was determined that he would not recover from his injuries.

The two cases were being compared to demonstrate that severe spinal cord injury can result from a fall from a horse or from a 2nd story landing - the most important point being that the angle of the impact of the head & neck is more relevant than the height of the fall.
 
SmoothOperator said:
The abrasions have already been thoroughly explained as have each and every question that you've purposed.. They have been answered point for point with cordial and intelligent answers to each point for point.. The dr who some are dependant upon for their theory has been 100% disproved by a thorough autopsy that it within itself answers all the questions as to dispel all of the proven false allegations by a doctor who was very mistaken in his assumptions..

As far as speaking of a minor child and accusing her of involvement in a theory of harming Max its abhorrent IMO.. Going as far as to make statements about a child in a rage more than capable of lifting a child their size or greater.. It's abhorrent IMO!

Once again..
This is very likely where the abrasions came from..
Click to expand...

No doctor has been "100% disproved" by any autopsy. The AR on Max does not make any reference to the origins of the abrasions.

JMO
 
MyBelle said:
You don't seem to understand the purpose of CPR and why there have been so much focus on training in the last 40 years by groups such as Red Cross and AHA. It can keep people alive until EMT's arrive. I've performed it on two people, who did survive.

No, the AR does not state RZ was performing CPR. It cites the first officer who said she told him she had performed some rescue breathes. The child was lying there with no CPR being performed, according to the officer.

CPR chest compressions continue to pump the heart so that blood continues to circulate. CPR is better than no CPR.

JMO
Click to expand...

MS did receive CPR, from both RZ and the EMS workers. It's documented in the autopsy report.

If you have some proof that RZ did not perform CPR or that MS's emergency care was deficient in some way, please link to it. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing it further. Continuing to repeat something that isn't true doesn't make it any more believable.
 
sorrell skye said:
IDK

The fact of the matter is that Christopher Reeve sustained cervical spine injuries that resulted in paralysis after being thrown from a horse. MS sustained cervical spine injuries after falling from a 2nd story landing, and subsequently died from those injuries after being removed from life support equipment when it was determined that he would not recover from his injuries.

The two cases were being compared to demonstrate that severe spinal cord injury can result from a fall from a horse or from a 2nd story landing - the most important point being that the angle of the impact of the head & neck is more relevant than the height of the fall.
Click to expand...

Reeves' accident resulted in fractures that affected the nerves. Max's suffered a spinal contusion, no fractures.

The AR support's cause of Max's death was brain death due to lack of oxygen.

JMO
 
I am trying to catch up here, so forgive me if this has been covered, but do we know for certain that the doctor who initially suspected smothering continues to hold that belief? Has he openly disagreed with the AR?

Thanks
 
Betty P said:
MS did receive CPR, from both RZ and the EMS workers. It's documented in the autopsy report.

If you have some proof that RZ did not perform CPR or that MS's emergency care was deficient in some way, please link to it. Otherwise, there's no point in discussing it further. Continuing to repeat something that isn't true doesn't make it any more believable.
Click to expand...

Excuse me? I'm only going by the Autopsy Report that has been linked here many times.

The arriving officer did not observe RZ performing CPR. Sorry, but the AR says what it says. I've no reason not to believe the officer. He would not lie about it.

JMO
 
e14d155f.jpg


An upclose view of what interior stucco looks like.. It is rough and capable of causing severe abrasions!
 
laurafairlie said:
I am trying to catch up here, so forgive me if this has been covered, but do we know for certain that the doctor who initially suspected smothering continues to hold that belief? Has he openly disagreed with the AR?

Thanks
Click to expand...

He hasn't openly disagreed with the AR but I wouldn't expect him to because it does support his diagnosis. If he disagrees with the ME's conclusion as to manner of death, I would think he may do that privately with Max's parents.

An insider posted here days ago that Max's mother still thinks he was suffocated. This was before the AR was released.

JMO
 
MyBelle said:
Excuse me? I'm only going by the Autopsy Report that has been linked here many times.

The arriving officer did not observe RZ performing CPR. Sorry, but the AR says what it says. I've no reason not to believe the officer. He would not lie about it.

JMO
Click to expand...

Please check the autopsy report again. It states that CPR had been administered to MS before and when they arrived. Agree, there is no reason not to believe the officer who reported that.

Again, if you have some proof that the officer was wrong or that CPR had not been administered, please post it. Otherwise, there's no point in making baseless accusations.
 
sorrell skye said:
I will say this: although Reeve's horse came to an abrupt halt, Reeve's body (when he was thrown) would have been traveling @ the speed of his horse prior to his horse refusing the jump. The event in which Reeve was competing was cross-country equestrian jumping. Average speed of mounts in this competition is 546 meters per minute (depending upon whether or not the event is preliminary, intermediate, or advanced).

546 meters per minute = about 20.36 mph. The speed @ which Reeve's body could have been traveling when he was thrown from his horse may have been about 20.36 mph.

http://convert-to.com/202/speed-units.html

Reeve wasn't dismounted @ a necessarily high rate of speed.

IMO, it was the angle @ which Reeve's head impacted the ground, and the angle @ which his neck hyper-extended when his head impacted the ground, that led to his spinal cord injuries.

How is this applicable to this case? IMO, the angle @ which MS's head & neck possibly impacted the opposite stair railing and/or the carpeted cement floor below after falling from a 2nd story landing is what caused the hyper-extension of his neck, and is what led to his fatal spinal cord injuries.
Click to expand...

Christopher Reeve had a broken neck. MS did not.
 
MyBelle said:
According to the AR, RZ was not doing CPR when the officer arrived on scene.
Also, according to the AR, CPR was started after EMT's arrived. The EMT's manually pumped the heart and gave oxygen until the heart resumed beating.

According to both the ICU Chief and the ME, the initial lack of oxygenated blood to the BRAIN resulted in brain death. We can argue forever about whether or not his heart stopped because of the fall or suffocation but the result to Max was the same. Those first minutes of unpumped blood killed him.

RZ was a certified medical technician who worked for surgeons. So, yes, I do question why she was not performing CPR on Max when the officer arrived.
If she had done so, the outcome may be different.

CPR wasn't started in the first several minutes
A very odd pattern of abrasions down the boy's back
An unexplained scooter on top of him
Unexplained balls
Unexplained cut shirt
A claim he said "ocean"
Deep cuts to a girl's leg who was said to be in the shower at the time

All, add up to a very suspicious death of a small child.

JMO
Click to expand...

According to the AR, Officer Erhard arrived @ approximately 10:12, before paramedics. It isn't noted anywhere in the AR that Officer Erhard performed CPR on MS.

Why didn't Officer Erhard perform CPR until the paramedics arrived?
 
MyBelle said:
No doctor has been "100% disproved" by any autopsy. The AR on Max does not make any reference to the origins of the abrasions.

JMO
Click to expand...


No, I made the reference to the origin of the abrasions and until there is once minuscule amount pointing to them coming from anywhere else then my belief is firmly standing that abrasions would come from a violent fall with body parts scraping against interior stucco walls.. It's my opinion and I strongly believe it's the case.. I have no need nor motive to sway anyone away from what they believe.. Anyone can believe all they'd like that something else occurred to Max it doesn't bother me in the least nor does it change my belief.
 
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