I can't find a hole in this theory...

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docg said:
Your questions are reasonable but there are so many it's hard to deal with them all in a single post. I'll try to be brief. Yes, in principle I suppose it's possible Burke could have attacked JonBenet, even if he was "frail" which he may not have been, admittedly. But I see no reason why his parents (or parent) wouldn't have simply called for an ambulance when they discovered what he'd done, which could have been reported as an accident.

And yes it's conceivable Paty's macrame could have been applied to the knot of the garotte, but it seems to me John is by far the more likely to have done that. The deeper question is why on earth either Patsy or John would contrive such a monstrous devise to cover up Burke's attack on JonBenet? Doesn't that strike you as overkill? On steroids?
And yes I do speculate to cover certain gaps, as in the above. And I could be wrong. My intention is to demonstrate how certain things are either possible or unlikely, not that they actually happened or didn't happen that way, because after all there are many gaps in our knowledge of what happened. My theory is not based on any of that, it's based on the facts outlined in my first two posts, supplemented by my analysis of John's testimony regarding the broken window.

Patsy was subjected to inordinate scrutiny imo so whenever she got confused about something certain people immediately jumped on that as evidence she was lying. Often they didn't even consider why she would lie, or what she might have to gain by lying. I do think she was manipulated by John and some of her lies are relevant to the case yes, but in other cases I don't think she was lying but was simply confused.

As for the note, I'm sorry but I just don't get your point. The note was written to stage a phoney kidnapping, to discourage Patsy from searching the house and frighten her into not calling the police. It was not written to get her to lie, where would you get that idea?
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I think you solved the case!!!! ....just jocking:)....or maybe not, PR was 'stuffed' with it for years.....
 
Offenders find themselves compelled to call 911 to report their crime, while at the same time they hope to deflect attention ... often times making the call yourself is key to the subterfuge because not calling will be extremely suspicious. That's the big hole in this theory as far as I am concerned, Patsy calling 911 doesn't offer her any protection from suspicion of involvement. If she wrote the note, she knows the threat is not real and worse so, already come to pass. If you are not prepared to dump her body outside the home to go unfound and match the note, you are also likely to want her found and cared for appropriately asap. So there is a note that deflects from the truth and escalates the police response, and a phone call as soon as possible.
 
DeeDee249 said:
Of course she knew. She was there when it happened. It really was an inside job.
Why would you feel Patsy didn't know there was no kidnapping? BOTH parents knew she was dead in the basement and not kidnapped at all.
That's why they never noticed that the time for the "phone call" came and went - but the police noticed their lack of concern.
The FBI knew also. While they didn't know she was in the wineceller (thanks to Officer French) they DID say to police at the house right away that morning "you're going to be finding her body". After observing the parents and reading the note they knew right away the parents were involved in some way and that she was dead.
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I don't believe PR was in on it. Doesn't make sense that the two of them together couldn't figure out that a RN and a body don't go together - not a convincing staging of a kidnapping.


The time for the phone call was the 27th. The "kidnapper", had there actually been one, would know the note will be found the morning of the 26th. Tomorrow meant the 27th. So the time for the call didn't come and go. It would be really silly for the Rs to let the police find a RN that says a call is coming the morning of the 26th, knowing that they could never stage the call.
 
KoldKase said:
That's hard for me to say. I thought her 911 call was an award winning performance. She was very convincing while stoned out of her mind on CNN, too.

But she was a bad liar when trying to explain evidence and answering questions she didn't want to answer. She had trouble keeping her lies straight, too.

No doubt she had lots of coaching before she even got to those LE interviews and on TV programs.

But that morning, I think she was more vulnerable and I think the stress got to her waiting all those hours for the "discovery." I think she and John meant to be half way to Atlanta long before JR finally found the body.

I do believe JR was involved, though. From the head blow, though I don't know which one of them struck that blow. The ligature has always felt like something a male would contrive.

But Patsy's fibers were tied into the knots; Patsy's paintbrush; etc.

However, JR's shirt fibers were in a bad place for an innocent man's fibers to be on the body.

So I try not to ask what anyone was thinking or why this or that as much as follow the evidence.

More and more Patsy's presence permeats the crime: fibers in the basement and in knots of the murder weapon, used to make the murder weapon; fingerprints on the pineapple bowl; DNA on the textiles in the cellar room; pen and pad used to compose the ransom note, which she was not eliminated from writing by most experts who analyzed it; etc.

It's hard to dismiss all of this for speculation, because this is hard evidence.
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So she goes back and forth between Oscar worthy performer and unconvincing ? If she had the talent, why not use it all the time?
 
KoldKase said:
Excuse me, but I'm going to quote Patsy now: What?! (To 911 operator.)

I have never believed JR's story about climbing in the window. I've actually posted about a thousand times it's not even physically possible to climb in that window the way he described to Lou Smit. Try it.

That being said, now you're telling us JR broke the window that morning, but then went back and cleaned up the glass? Because he was afraid LE might think he'd staged too much? Or not enough?

You are too intelligent not to see what a stretch of pure fiction that is. It may be possible, but I could imagine a dozen other reasons the glass was broken and then cleaned up, as well. It's not proof.

Besides, you said Patsy wasn't in on this. Now she's lying to LE about cleaning up the glass to cover for JR, but she doesn't suspect him?

And I have never seen a source where the maid and/or gardener stated they knew nothing about a broken window, but I would like to, so perhaps you can provide me with some direction as to where I can find that? Thanks in advance.

I don't know why JR lied about breaking and climbing in the window. He told White that afternoon right before they "found" the body that he'd broken the window himself. But I believe he did lie about when and why.

However, someone broke it, and the very old and heavy, dusty spider webs we can now see in the crime scene basement video posted on The Daily Beast article by Carol McKinley indicates to me it was broken for some time before that night.

Maybe Burke and his playmates broke the window; maybe JAR did trying to get in one night when the Ramseys were out of town; I could think of a hundred possiblities. Whoever did it, JR was looking to protect that person or himself from something.

Jams kept telling us for years someone was with JR that night and she knew he was telling the truth. But she never would say "who" was with JR, so where does that take your mind? Of course, she could have been lied to, as well, but my point is, there are other reasons JR lied besides he broke the window that morning to prove an intruder came in and then decided later he needed to clean it up because...why? Smit sure bought it anyway, no glass and all.

Why didn't JR or Patsy have the window fixed? Who knows? Why didn't they clean the basement up, while they were at it? Maybe take care of the live wires hanging in the closet? I mean, the kids played there, for god's sake, Patsy!

But John said the basement was hot, and Patsy smoked down there. Maybe they tried to get it fixed; Patsy said it was on the maid's husband's handyman list, something the IDIs love. Or maybe they lied. Again. These are more things we could spend 16 years trying to figure out...oh, wait, we have.

Bottom line: you really are having to explain a lot through guessing John did this and then did that because he might have been thinking this or that. That is the curse of any theory in this case: the more you depend on it, the weaker the theory.

I am not able to eliminate Patsy from being a player in this death, sorry. Physical evidence points to her about 10 times more than it points to JR. I don't have to guess what she was thinking when her pen, pad, fibers, etc., are all over the crime scene.
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So you are saying you believe that millionaires live with a broken window in December, in Boulder? But not just December, since summer? It gets quite cold in Boulder in the winter. It's really hard to believe they lived with the broken window.

IF JR broke the window the night of the 25th or morning or the 26th, (and I think docG is correct about that) then he missed a trick by not putting plastic sheeting, or cardboard over the window. Then it might be possible to believe they'd gone months and months, into the cold of winter with a broken window.
 
KoldKase said:
I was recently viewing an old TV interview with Arndt. In it, Arndt states after John brought the body up, when the kidnap party members were all looking to see what the shouting was about, Patsy was still back in the sunroom.

Then Arndt heard Patsy wail. Arndt said it was the saddest thing she'd ever heard.

Patsy knew before she even got out of that chair her daughter was dead. She didn't run to see what was going on. She didn't try to revive JonBenet when she finally got up and went to the body.

She accepted it. Period.

Of course I have never been in that situation, but I have been in crisis situations with children and adults who have accidents, etc., and I can say this much: I'd have been on my knees trying for all I was worth to bring her back. And I don't mean through Lazarus. CPR. Call 911. Call and ambulance. Do something.

So far as I've ever seen or heard in 15+ years, neither John nor Patsy even asked what had happened to her. Didn't even look over her body to figure out if there was anything that could be done or how she'd died.

Sorry, I'm not believing Patsy Ramsey, Miss Take Over and In Charge, acted like that if she had no idea her child was dead when JonBenet "suddenly" was found out of the blue in the basement and brought up.
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KK, remember, Arndt said publicly that PR was innocent and a terrible victim in all this. We don't know what her theory is -- she never said -- but we do know that based on everything she's seen, she feels PR had nothing to do with JB's murder or the coverup.
 
Chrishope said:
So you are saying you believe that millionaires live with a broken window in December, in Boulder? But not just December, since summer? It gets quite cold in Boulder in the winter. It's really hard to believe they lived with the broken window.

IF JR broke the window the night of the 25th or morning or the 26th, (and I think docG is correct about that) then he missed a trick by not putting plastic sheeting, or cardboard over the window. Then it might be possible to believe they'd gone months and months, into the cold of winter with a broken window.
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When I look at the mess and chaos of that basement, I have no trouble believing the Ramseys neglected to get the window fixed. None. Whatsoever.

Look, we all believe what we choose. I once spent a year chasing a JAR did it theory, and it was worthy of a bad thriller. In the end, while possible, it was highly improbable and impossible to prove: he has a pretty good alibi, including a friend, his Atlanta family, and a distance of 2000 miles. If I'd only been able to find that Harrier jet Thomas mentioned, I'd have nailed him! :jail:

Alas...no jet.

So whatever you believe is as good as what I believe. Without a trial, it's all speculation anyway.
 
sandover said:
KK, remember, Arndt said publicly that PR was innocent and a terrible victim in all this. We don't know what her theory is -- she never said -- but we do know that based on everything she's seen, she feels PR had nothing to do with JB's murder or the coverup.
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What's your point?

That Arndt's theory, which we don't know, is credible?

This would be Arndt, who sent JR and White to hunt for evidence in a crime scene? Who further contaminated the body by moving it again; then allowed a blanket and sweatshirt to be placed on it, allowed JR to cuddle with the body, and asked Patsy to "say goodbye" to JonBenet, at which time Patsy draped herself over the body?

Arndt, who refused to write reports for the case files of her secret meetings with the Ramseys?

Arndt, who as a private citizen visited Patsy on her death bed 10 years later and then gave a media interview with more mysterious statements no one can decipher...at least, not until she writes her own book, which she said she was going to do?

Arndt took herself out of the game very early on. She might have been given a raw deal that morning when the BPD left her alone for some unknown reason at a crowded crime scene waiting for kidnappers to call, but about all she was qualified to do was comfort victims, obviously. That was her specialty on the police force.

I mentioned Arndt's recall of the timing of Patsy's response to the body being brought up, but by no means do I have any idea what she is thinking when it comes to this case, as she is completely oblique. She counted bullets? She was going to shoot the house up to take out JR? Because he was showing signs of being a mass murderer? Very odd thinking, IMO.

Like Lacy, she was trained to be sympathetic to victims. She appears to be stuck on "women are victims," therefore Patsy was a victim.

Patsy Ramsey was no victim.
 
I have no problem at all either believing the Ramsey's wouldn't have fixed the window in such a long time.But I just can't figure out why JR lied about breaking it in the summer.I don't think it's believable at all but why that lie? I also remember reading that the housekeeper and gardener DO NOT recall it being broken.So IF JR broke it during the staging maybe he used the lie that he climbed through the window to make LE believe that it is possible the "intruder" could have entered through it? But then,really,WHERE is the glass?....and WHY clean it,if it was broken during the staging?
 
claudicici said:
I have no problem at all either believing the Ramsey's wouldn't have fixed the window in such a long time.But I just can't figure out why JR lied about breaking it in the summer.I don't think it's believable at all but why that lie? I also remember reading that the housekeeper and gardener DO NOT recall it being broken.So IF JR broke it during the staging maybe he used the lie that he climbed through the window to make LE believe that it is possible the "intruder" could have entered through it? But then,really,WHERE is the glass?....and WHY clean it,if it was broken during the staging?
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Well, it has always been a weird piece of controversy, I agree. Smit's insistence that an intruder came through it put it front and center in the IDI theories.

JR never told LE about any broken window that morning. In fact, I believe it was White who moved the suitcase and found the piece of glass he laid on the window sill early, within about half an hour of arriving, Kolar states.

Then when White follows JR to the basement at 1 pm, they look around the train room and spend some time at the window. I wonder if White was the one who came up with the questions about it, because JR tells White then he broke the window that summer.

Fast forward four months later. Thomas was questioning JR and JR brought up that he broke that window. That's the first time LE heard that. Thomas wrote that he was flabbergasted because they'd spent some time on that window, investigating if it could have been an entry point for an intruder. Smit was already hired by the DA at that point and he and Thomas argued endlessly about it. Kolar even talks about how fiercely they went at it during a visit to the home to test some things like sound, could a man actually get through the well and window, etc.

So maybe JR didn't do anything to the window that morning, for all we know. Maybe he just used the "suitcase" under it to create a red herring because White innocently provided the whole thing and JR went with it.

Maybe maybe maybe. Does it really matter who did break it some time before that night?

It's just one more distraction from what does matter. No intruder came in the window. The spider webs are old and dusty, there was little glass around the area, so it couldn't have been broken that night/morning, IMO. That's Kolar's opinion, as well.

Again I ask, if you remember, where did you read this info about the maid and gardener not knowing anything about the window? It's been so long since I read PMPT; was it in that? I'd really like to check that out. Surely LE asked the maid, as Patsy went on and on and on about how carefully she and the maid cleaned that glass up after JR broke the window. She went on so much that is another reason I have always believed there is something fishy about that window getting broken, but surely they knew the maid would be asked about it.

When it comes to the Ramseys, so many lies, it's hard to keep up.
 
docg said:
As for the note, I'm sorry but I just don't get your point. The note was written to stage a phoney kidnapping, to discourage Patsy from searching the house and frighten her into not calling the police. It was not written to get her to lie, where would you get that idea?
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I was asking the question based on your explanations of why Patsy lied if she was not involved.... You said that she lied to protect John/them, after he probably said convincing things to her that they needed to keep their stories straight so they wouldn't look more suspicious, etc.

I am not saying that I think the note was written to get her to lie....but we know she did anyway.... And if you're saying it's because he convinced her to go along with him to keep their stories straight, I was saying couldn't he also have accomplished that with another explanation to Patsy about what happened, rather than possibly doing something more risky, like writing a note in his own handwriting (albeit disguised) for her to read and possibly realize he wrote it?

And we also know she supposedly searched the house anyway, as well.

They both said they immediately ran about the house checking for JB just in case... So I don't know that John would expect Patsy not to get hysterical, and not expect that the first thing Patsy would do is run and check to see if her daughter is really gone...

If the note was meant to discourage Patsy from looking for JonBenet, call the police, and allow him to accomplish his supposed plan, I guess none of that really worked all that well.

And if he meant for Patsy to find the note, and his plan was to get it back from her so he could keep it and get rid of it so it couldn't be examined later, it would seem he could be convincing enough to her to insist not to call police, hand him back the note, and allow him to continue his plan -- especially if we are to believe the reason she lied later if she was supposedly innocent is because he convinced her to keep their stories straight... Then why wouldn't he have been able to convince her that morning? Especially if this staging and prep is vital to his plan and he spent a lot of effort on the note? If she was insistent on calling the police and ignored everything he may have said to her that morning, and all warnings in the note, then why was she so easy to convince by him later to lie?

I guess it's hard to completely grasp that none of the things that John planned to accomplish with the ransom note and staging worked out because Patsy insisted on calling 911, but then she was easy to convince later by him to start lying and contradict her own previous stories....
 
Sorry if you don't get my point - thought I made it pretty clear, and wasn't going off in a lot of directions - Everything I stated supported the same theme and topics.

But that's ok, I'll let it go.
 
Well, I sure hadn't read the Star interview with LHP. Interesting.

But all it proves is that Patsy lied about LHP cleaning up the glass. JR lied about breaking the window and climbing in it. The Ramseys lied. Again. Surprise.

Still there was no glass on the floor of that basement but for a shard on the outer window sill and a small fragment White found, far from enough to cover the area of the broken window.

You keep saying there was glass all over the floor, but I have seen numerous sources that say there was not, including detectives wh0 have seen the case files and investigated the case. So could you please provide your source for that info?

And I didn't see your source for the gardener denying the window was broken. I did look, but if you could just tell me what media that is in, I'll look it up myself. And thanks.

As for what jams said, that's it: JR has a witness that was there when he broke the window. She claimed to know who the witness was, but she won't tell. Ha. Surprise. Again. I don't believe her, either.

So basically, we have a bunch of liars telling lies. I get it.

But then you want to extrapolate why some told certain lies, which is pure speculation to fit your theory, and others told lies contradicting your theory, but then you speculate further to explain that.

God love you, DocG, it's a lot to swallow when you say oh, just forget the actual evidence because if it mattered, Patsy would have been convicted.

Anyway...carry on.
 
docg said:
Well, that's what I've been doing on my blog. If you want to challenge anything feel free to comment, either there or here.
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Sorry but I'll have to pass. It isn't my job to do research to disprove your theory. It's your job to prove it.
 
docg said:
Me too. What I've done is invite people to go to my blog and if they see a problem with anything in my thinking to post a comment. Is there a problem with that?
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"Invite," "challenge," "find a hole," means basically the same thing in the context you all have used those words ... it's still a fallacy to proclaim a theory then ask others to "find holes," which means the same as "prove me wrong." The posts, in my view, often come across as "holier than thou" with the emphasis on the writer rather than JonBenet and bringing justice to her.

You asked so I've answered. :truce:
 
docg said:
I remember reading that but I can't recall where, sorry. Fact is, NO ONE ever confirmed their story.

skip
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It's in PMPT (see interview w/gardener). Gardener said that he didn't see ANY windows broken except the one in which HE himself made the small hole to get wires through for X-mas outside decoration. So, gardener has chance to absorve R windows from outside and INSIDE, while being in basement.
 
docg said:
I remember reading that but I can't recall where, sorry. Fact is, NO ONE ever confirmed their story.
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docg,
For your delectation:

Perfect Murder Perfect Town, Excerpt
Detective Arndt asked him what he remembered about the window-well grate near the rear patio. Scott said he didn’t remember that the window was broken. He’d only been in the basement to fix the sprinkler clock. He didn’t know there was a wine cellar, much less where it was. He did recall a broken window at the front of the house, but it was for the electrical cord for the Christmas lights and certainly not big enough for someone to crawl through—something like 2 inches square.
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and ...

Right before 10:00 A.M., alone, John Ramsey went downstairs to the basement, where Officer French had searched for his daughter. In the room where his son Burke’s train set was kept, Ramsey found a broken open window. He closed it before going back upstairs.
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and ...

John Fernie stayed on the ground floor while Ramsey led Fleet White down to the basement. In Burke’s train room, they looked at the broken window. Ramsey told White that some months ago, he’d found himself locked out of the house and had broken the window, unlatched it, and climbed through.
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and ...

Mason and Walker went downstairs to the wine cellar, where they saw the white blanket, the duct tape, and the pink Barbie nightgown. Mason noticed that there was something about the crime scene—he couldn’t put his finger on what it was—that made it look unnatural. In the train room he noticed a suitcase standing next to the wall, just under a broken window.
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and ...

White told the detectives that he had been there only a few minutes when he started to search the house. Alone, he went down to the basement, found some of the lights on, and started calling out JonBenét’s name. It was so cluttered down there—with boxes stacked everywhere and shelves overflowing with odds and ends—that he could hardly see any open spaces where she might be. He started in Burke’s train and hobby room, where he saw a suitcase sitting under a broken window. On the floor under the window, he found small pieces of glass. He placed some of them on the windowsill. Then he moved the suitcase a few feet to get a closer look at the window. White said he was sure the window was closed but unlatched. After he left the train room, he turned right, into the boiler room. At the back of the room, he said, he saw a door to what the Ramseys called the wine cellar. He turned the closed wooden latch and opened the door. The room was pitch-black, he said. He didn’t enter, and he saw nothing. When he couldn’t find a light switch, he closed the door and went back upstairs. He did not remember whether or not he relatched the door. Later, when White saw John Fernie, he told him that a window downstairs had been punched open. The police wondered why White had not seen JonBenét’s body and later Ramsey had, since they both stood at the same spot after opening the door to the wine cellar.
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and ...
White also told the police that he and Ramsey went down to the basement again at about 1:00 P.M. and first went into Burke’s train room, where they both looked at the broken window. Ramsey told White he had broken it to get into the house a few months earlier, when he came home one day without his house key. Then White described what had happened when John Ramsey found JonBenét’s body. He couldn’t forget seeing John standing in the doorway screaming, his back to White, the light being turned on and, when he entered the room himself, seeing Ramsey on his knees beside JonBenét. It all happened so fast, White said. He had no explanation for why he himself hadn’t seen the body on his first trip to the basement.
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and ...
John Andrew Ramsey, a college student in Boulder who often stayed at his father’s house, was under particular suspicion. The police would soon learn that the suitcase found under the broken window in the basement belonged to him.
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and ...
Eller knew the police had found no evidence that an intruder had entered the Ramsey home, and John Ramsey had said to Fleet White it was he who had broken the basement window—months earlier. Also, one officer had noticed three strands of a spiderweb at that spot. It extended from the edge of the grate covering the well outside the broken window to the window itself.
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.
 
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