FL - 17-yo Teen Shot to Death by Neighborhood Watch Captain #4

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vlpate said:
The family should be outraged that someone is selling exclusive voice messages to WESH and making money off their dead son. Someone simply wanting to help the new investigation would have given it to authorities. IMO

Is there something in this message that is meaningful? If there is, I missed it....anyone?
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I don't think this was to Trayvon's family. It was to George Zimmerman's friend who apparently has lost a son as well?
 
Dr.Fessel said:
These people you asked a queston of, did you follow them in an SUV at night then get out of that SUV and chase them down? Were they just walking home and you dreamed up they were on drugs, up to no good and always getting away?
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Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.
 
Ironhorse said:
Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.
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When George Zimmerman expressed his beliefs that Trayon was up to no good, probably on drugs, he was assuming he was dealing with a criminal. He didn't feel the need to inquire about anything. He automatically grouped Trayvon with the criminals that had gotten away. You said that you identified yourself. I doubt very much that Trayvon, a teen with no prior record, who had no alcohol or drug in his system as the police have investigated, would for no apparant reason start fighting with someone who by approaching him identified himself as a neighbourhood watch authority person.

That's what sets this case apart from what you have done and how someone would've reacted in comparison to how a teenager reacts when a stranger follows him and then approaches him with a gun.
 
Nali87 said:
My impression was that George Zimmerman knew where Trayvon was and then lost him at the last minute. He then decided to get out of the car and follow on foot which to me seems to mean that Trayvor went somewhere that a car couldn't follow him, since before that George Zimmerman was following him in his car.
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And for your question, he probably thought he lost George, since in the 911 call George couldn't see him anymore and slowed down.
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Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.

Anything could be the case here. Maybe he stopped and said, "man, it's silly to run, maybe I imagined it", who knows? I don't see how it's important in this case either way.
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Imagined what?

And being a Vigilante is a whole different thing that being a cold-blooded murderer. He took the law into his own hands after being cautioned not to after deciding that Trayvon Martin was up to no good and probably on drugs, THAT's what makes him a vigilante not a need to go out and kill people.
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Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?
 
Ironhorse said:
Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.
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See this is the difference, you identified yourself and asked what they were doing. Zimmerman never did that. He kept following Tray until Tray decided to run away from him. We know this because while Zimmerman was on the 911 call he never made an attempt to ask Tray anything. From what his girlfriend says the only time they spoke to each other is after Tray ran away and Zimmerman caught up to him, and Tray asked him why are you following me.

Now if somebody is following you and not saying a word are you going to stand there and wait for them to confront you or are you going to try to get the hell away from them?
 
vlpate said:
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.


Imagined what?



Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?
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Was he coming towards him or was he following him and Martin turned back and looked at him?
 
vlpate said:
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.

He tried to lose him because Zimmerman was following him and not saying anything to him. I can imagine that once he realized that Zimmerman had been following him for a while he turned to him and gave him the body language like he was saying "what do you want". when Zimmerman didn't respond he decided that it was time to run.

If somebody was in a car following you for a while, and not making any attempt to contact you, would you run away or just ignore them and wait until they do what ever it is they are going to do?
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vlpate said:
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.
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That is not known as a fact.


Imagined what?
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That a man was following him.

Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?
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Not if you're trying to set up a situation for a "murder in self-defense." I'm not saying GZ was doing that, just answering your question.

JMHO
 
vlpate said:
Why did he try to lose GZ? He wasn't being chased when he started running, he was coming toward Zimmerman.


Imagined what?



Bernard Goetz was a vigilante killer. Vigilantes usually don't call the police before they start shooting, nor do cold blooded murderers. So, for me, he doesn't fit either. Both would have just shot him and drive away. Wouldn't you think?
Click to expand...

No account has been giving that he was coming towards Zimmerman. The witness, his girlfriend, said she heard him ask "what are you following me for?" which would lead one to assume that Zimmerman was the one walking towards Trayvon.

Imagined that someone was following him in his car. Late at night, I'm pretty anxious to cars riding slowly past me even though it could be just my imagination. Anyways, the girlfriend said that he was not running from Zimmerman, but said that he would "walk fast", so I don't really get your point about him deciding to stop running.

No. "A vigilante is a private individual who legally or illegally punishes an alleged lawbreaker". Being a vigilante doesn't mean you are deadset on shooting someone that night. The fact that he called 911 doesn't take away from the fact that he went after Trayvon Martin after being told not to. George Zimmerman wanted to act as a cop that night and catch a criminal. That's what makes him a vigilante. No one is saying he set out with the intent to kill the first criminal he saw.
 
Ironhorse said:
Having worked in the Loss Prevention field for several years. I'm well qualified to recognize something a miss when I see it. Have I been mistaken before on what I was seeing of course, that's why you inquire rather than assume. A person seen in the parking lot trying to jimmy a car door looks like a theft in progress, but sometimes it's just an owner who mistakenly locked their keys in their car.

Sure I've followed someone before at night in a vehicle and I've stopped a few break-ins in doing so. Sometimes it resulted in a chase... But I've also wondered up on what appeared to be a crime and after a quick conversation it turned out there was no crime and I express my apologies and be on my way...

See this is what I mean about there being many missteps and errors in the Zimmerman/Martin incident. I never once failed to identify who I was and why I was inquiring to their reasons for being where they was.
Click to expand...

The selective usage of information is really not useful (not talking about this post), and muddies the water for those who are trying to sleuth this based on what we know for sure. The police lie, but then, when useful, the reports are accurate. Everyone lies but Trayvon't family and ABC, who were not there that night.

Like, Zimmerman was not on duty, but he should have identified himself. Zimmerman did the right thing to begin with, he called the police and tried to keep an eye on Trayvon. He gave his reasons for feeling Trayvon was suspect, he had to or the call would have been pointless. He said Trayvon was looking around at the houses, acting suspicious....there had been a lot of burglaries, it makes sense to me, so far. Where it went after he hung up with 911 was witnessed by (allegedly), one person, and that person's statement was that Zimmerman was on the bottom. Of course this has been deemed unreliable, although I've seen it on a site that is used all the time here for reference on other things.

I've had courtesy officers (security without guns), on my properties and we've had dozens of these type situations - the officer watches, tries to keep the person in sight while waiting on police, fortunately without incident.

IMO, Zimmerman started out doing the right thing, and then it all went terribly wrong. IMO
 
Goodnight good people. We will get this figured out. Or they will release the info. LOL
 
Nali87 said:
When George Zimmerman expressed his beliefs that Trayon was up to no good, probably on drugs, he was assuming he was dealing with a criminal. He didn't feel the need to inquire about anything. He automatically grouped Trayvon with the criminals that had gotten away. You said that you identified yourself. I doubt very much that Trayvon, a teen with no prior record, who had no alcohol or drug in his system as the police have investigated, would for no apparant reason start fighting with someone who by approaching him identified himself as a neighbourhood watch authority person.

That's what sets this case apart from what you have done and how someone would've reacted in comparison to how a teenager reacts when a stranger follows him and then approaches him with a gun.
Click to expand...

O' you'd be surprised by some of the reactions I've encountered. There has been times when I've ran across people who've been taught all their life to be overly paranoid and fear everyone. I'm surprised they can get out of the house. They freak out just because someone follows them into the gas station to pay for the gas they just pumped...

I've dealt with a many a teenager and with a few exceptions most have poor attitudes. Many just assume because they are young that they'll be picked on and provide no aid whatsoever to clear up what is likely to be a simple misunderstanding.

As far as we all know Mr. Martin was never aware of any firearm until it was used. So, this myth about Mr. Martin being approached by a drawn Gun in the hands of Mr. Zimmerman doesn't hold up. For one I can't imagine Mr. Martin doing anything but submitting to Mr. Zimmerman's orders if a Gun was pointed at him. Secondly, no one has stepped forward to testify they witnessed Zimmerman chasing Mr. Martin with a gun drawn...
 
Anyone who knows the history of Sanford would know why the black citizens assume that race is a factor in the treatment of the Trayvon Martin case.

Jackie Robinson, Trayvon Martin and the Sad History of Sanford, Florida
Dave Zirin on March 23, 2012 - 12:16 AM ET

Sanford, Florida is a city that will now be known for all times as the place where Trayvon Martin was killed for the crime of Living While Black. It's in addition the place whose institutions—the police department, the local press, and even the city morgue—treated Trayvon and his body in ways that should disturb anyone with a shred of conscience.

The city of Sanford also has a past that speaks to the racism many believe to be at the heart of why Trayvon was killed and why the man who pulled the trigger was not arrested. I'm not arguing that Sanford, Florida, is somehow more or less twisted than anywhere else. Last month, unarmed, 18-year-old Ramarley Graham was killed in his bathroom by police in New York City. Last week Dane Scott Jr. in Del City, Oklahoma, was killed by police after a “scuffle.” The state medical examiner's office, however, declared Scott's death a homicide. The murder of Trayvon Martin is a “local issue” only if we understand “local” to mean local communities across the country.

But Sanford, Florida, does have its own history and it includes a collective moment of intolerance and bigotry that almost derailed the man Martin Luther King Jr. called “a freedom rider before freedom rides,” Jackie Robinson.

More: http://www.thenation.com/blog/166992/jackie-robinson-trayvon-martin-and-sad-history-sanford-florida
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Nali87 said:
No account has been giving that he was coming towards Zimmerman. The witness, his girlfriend, said she heard him ask "what are you following me for?" which would lead one to assume that Zimmerman was the one walking towards Trayvon.
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From the 911 call made by Zimmerman
GZ: Something's wrong with him. Yep, he's coming to check me out. He's got something in his hands, I don't know what his deal is.

Imagined that someone was following him in his car. Late at night, I'm pretty anxious to cars riding slowly past me even though it could be just my imagination. Anyways, the girlfriend said that he was not running from Zimmerman, but said that he would "walk fast", so I don't really get your point about him deciding to stop running.
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Zimmerman had no reason to lie about Trayvon running - it would only weaken his story if this were a set-up. He had to have stopped running to still be in the area.

No. "A vigilante is a private individual who legally or illegally punishes an alleged lawbreaker". Being a vigilante doesn't mean you are deadset on shooting someone that night. The fact that he called 911 doesn't take away from the fact that he went after Trayvon Martin after being told not to. George Zimmerman wanted to act as a cop that night and catch a criminal. That's what makes him a vigilante. No one is saying he set out with the intent to kill the first criminal he saw.
Click to expand...
K.
 
vlpate said:
The selective usage of information is really not useful (not talking about this post), and muddies the water for those who are trying to sleuth this based on what we know for sure. The police lie, but then, when useful, the reports are accurate. Everyone lies but Trayvon't family and ABC, who were not there that night.

Like, Zimmerman was not on duty, but he should have identified himself. Zimmerman did the right thing to begin with, he called the police and tried to keep an eye on Trayvon. He gave his reasons for feeling Trayvon was suspect, he had to or the call would have been pointless. He said Trayvon was looking around at the houses, acting suspicious....there had been a lot of burglaries, it makes sense to me, so far. Where it went after he hung up with 911 was witnessed by (allegedly), one person, and that person's statement was that Zimmerman was on the bottom. Of course this has been deemed unreliable, although I've seen it on a site that is used all the time here for reference on other things.

I've had courtesy officers (security without guns), on my properties and we've had dozens of these type situations - the officer watches, tries to keep the person in sight while waiting on police, fortunately without incident.

IMO, Zimmerman started out doing the right thing, and then it all went terribly wrong. IMO
Click to expand...

It doesn't matter if he was doing the right thing, which is discutable, until up to a certain point. Even if you want to give George Zimmerman the right to be suspicious of every black kid who walks into his neighbourhood, the question then becomes, "if you think the person is a criminal and he's up to no good and he's on drugs", do you get out of your car to follow him? And if you're the one following someone whom you haven't SEEN commit an actual crime, doesn't that give that person to be suspicious of you and to defend himself against someone that he perceives as a stranger following him AT NIGHT? And in the end you end up shooting that person you followed, then there should be a THOROUGH investigation and the one who pulled the trigger should be questioned at length by the police. George Zimmerman didn't even have to take a routine drugs and alcohol test. You betcha they did those test on Trayvon.
 
Dr.Fessel said:
I honestly can not see that. You have a 27 year old man and a 17 year old teen. The 27 year old has 10 more years of life experience. He is the one that mistakenly thought this was a guy on drugs or messed up with something wrong with him and was up to no good and was just like those guys who get away. You know those guys that break into homes and get away. All of that was wrong period. And with all of that delusion in his head he arms himself and gets out and gives chase. You can hear his running footsteps in the tape.

Now this guy is 27 years old, he had the benefit of age and knew how teens would act when pushed into a corner or a situation of flight or fight. He should have been able to think about the consequences of his actions and how would he react when he was a teen if a strange man started following him then chasing him. How would he react?
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I know what I would do when such a scary weirdo silent stranger would come too close. I would give him a decent uppercut that would knock him down and run as fast as I could.
 
Ironhorse said:
It's not that I'm laying blame on Mr. Martin but it would be foolish to not recognize that some of his behavior very likely added suspicion to the situation Mr. Zimmerman was confronted with. Does this wash away Mr. Zimmerman's responsibility to conduct himself in a professional manner, no it does not. However given the totality of the situation it does demonstrate how various missteps on both parties fault likely lead to this unfortunate situation...

Again Mr. Martin wasn't some child he was a 17 year old man.
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Then you would concede that Chelsea King was not some child and was a 17-year-old woman?

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97484&highlight=Chelsea+King

Brittanee Drexel

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=115969&highlight=Chelsea+King

Lily Burk

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87011&highlight=Chelsea+King

Mackenzie Cowell

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=97484&highlight=Chelsea+King

I'm sure all these women fought as hard as they could to stay alive too.
 
rotterdam said:
I know what I would do when such a scary weirdo silent stranger would come too close. I would give him a decent uppercut that would knock him down and run as fast as I could.
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Exactly what the few late-teen / early 20's boys I spoke with last night. We were talking about the case and that GZ had a bloddy nose. They all seemed to think that GZ might have grabbed a hold of Trayvon's arm and Trayvon clocked him one - to be able to get away.

FWIW - that is exactly what I think too. GZ reached out and grabbed him by the arm and Trayvon swung. I would have too. I don't think Trayvon saw or knew GZ had a gun.


JMHO
 
porkchop said:
He tried to lose him because Zimmerman was following him and not saying anything to him. I can imagine that once he realized that Zimmerman had been following him for a while he turned to him and gave him the body language like he was saying "what do you want". when Zimmerman didn't respond he decided that it was time to run.

If somebody was in a car following you for a while, and not making any attempt to contact you, would you run away or just ignore them and wait until they do what ever it is they are going to do?
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Hiney and elbows is all they'd see. I wouldn't get close and check them out, that's for sure. I'd run like heck the football field home and never look back. Trayvon was known as a "swift" athlete, Zimmerman didn't look like he'd be all that agile, but people fool you.
 
rotterdam said:
I know what I would do when such a scary weirdo silent stranger would come too close. I would give him a decent uppercut that would knock him down and run as fast as I could.
Click to expand...

Hopefully, after this, you would rethink such a move. If, that is, one believes Trayvon punched Zimmerman in the nose and was shot for it.
 
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