Theories On What Happened to Caylee Part #3

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this is a small point, but still - i am a person of faith, however i do not believe it to be the vital component necessary in choosing to call for help when you find your child dead or close to it. even if you are scared of your mother.

That is what really gets me about considering it could have been an accident... I just cannot get over finding my child drowned even through my own negligence and start thinking "oops! how do I get out of this" rather than screaming my freaking head off to 911 to come FIX MY BABY NOW NOW NOW.


we heard the 911 call about rocks being thrown, she is very demanding when it comes to safety of family members so....?!?

besides, wasnt it raining? why would caylee go in the pool alone while it was raining? where is the ask members thread...
 
Wow Babe, I see the "Oranges" are circling your wagon again. :p

Deja-vu much eh? :bang:

At this point with all of the overwhelming evidence that points to pre-meditation, I would find it vastly more intriguing if those who think Caylee's death an accident would list any and all of the facts/evidence that support that theory for us. We have listed our reasons til our wee little fingers are blue, it's only fair that the opposing views share their reasons for feeling the way they do about the case.

Any takers?
Exactly!Your' phases of grief' list is my answer to 'What have we seen that would indicate premeditation'
I would love to see a list that would point to an accident.
Because I cant think of a single thing.
Believe me this is one issue I would LOVE to be wrong on.
 
Did anyone see the rubbermaid storage container that was pushed up to the side of the pool? It could be seen when Greta Van Susteran went to the Anthony's house and did part of her interview in the backyard. Mybe Caylee climbed onto it and fell into the pool. Casey doesn't seem like the type be constantly watching her. Also putting her in the trunk while she partied wouldn't work, because it's Florida and the trunk would be like being put into an oven.
 
Exactly!Your' phases of grief' list is my answer to 'What have we seen that would indicate premeditation'
I would love to see a list that would point to an accident.
Because I cant think of a single thing.
Believe me this is one issue I would LOVE to be wrong on.

I think that we would all be very happy to be wrong about premeditation.

I agree with you all, I have seen no evidence whotsoever pointing towards an accident. But even I keep hoping (if that is the right word) that it was an accident and not deliberate - I believe because we cannot stand the thought of that precious little girl being hurt so terribly by the mother she adored.
 
I think that we would all be very happy to be wrong about premeditation.

I agree with you all, I have seen no evidence whotsoever pointing towards an accident. But even I keep hoping (if that is the right word) that it was an accident and not deliberate - I believe because we cannot stand the thought of that precious little girl being hurt so terribly by the mother she adored.
Well put.:)
 
Number one,I cant think of any other instance in my experience where an 'accident' victim is found with duct tape over their mouth possibly wrapped in a blanket then a garbage bag and dumped in the woods.
Casey's behavior after Caylee is gone.
How could any of it possibly be attributed to a mother who's child has accidentally died?
Lingeree and Beer?
Dirty dancing at the Club?
'A Beautiful Life' Tattoo?
The 'Nanny' story?
Which one of these things indicates an accident?

Which ones indicate premeditated murder? Most of these behaviours are after the fact and are those we would normally expect from someone who's child was 'safe and happy, but just temporarily in someone else's care' (giving the young mom some extra 'me' time) which is EXACTLY the story that she was acting out in the first month after Caylee's death. If she wanted that story to stick, she could not be seen getting upset, but that does not prove that she felt nothing, or that she didn't go through a private silent hell when the spotlights were off her – we know she had nightmares! I believe KC is a coward and could not own up to the fact that Caylee died whilst in her care – especially to CA! Her denial of Caylee's death and any responsibility she had for it, and the hiding of her little body is both cowardly and callous and shows that she was more concerned about saving her own skin after the event, but it does NOT prove premeditated murder.

Because from where im sitting they indicate someone who is absolutely exultant at the way things turned out then trying deperately to avoid the consequences of her actions.

I don't see any exultant behaviour – I see someone who is acting out the lies that have been spun to hide a horrible truth. Would you really expect a mom who's young daughter is 'off having a fabulous time with a trusted nanny' to be sobbing uncontrollably in the ladies room at Fusion? It was an act, a cover, the despicable actions of a cowardly liar who does not have the backbone to admit the truth, but it doesn't automatically follow that the 'truth' was a premeditated murder. KC is a LIAR – she lies to get herself out of even the most innocuous situations (like telling people she can't go to a social event because she is 'working', rather than just saying she is broke or can't get a babysitter), so do you really think that she would suddenly turn over a new leaf when faced with her most horrendous 'situation' ever?

Not something you would see in someone who would find themselves with a dead child by circumstance then trying to cover it up for some nebulous reason.
Im curious I mean we could all come up with possible scenarios involving an accident no matter how implausible.
What is it in the knowledge of this case that we have that indicates to you that it was an accident?
There must be something for you to feel as strongly as you do about it.
Please share.

I have added some comments (in blue) to your original post above.

What are the facts and evidence that point to a premeditated murder, rather than an accident, probably due to negligence, followed by a callous cover-up?

We have:
1)the PC searches – specifically chloroform
JWG has looked closely at these searches and has come up with a very plausible alternative explanation that works against premeditation. It's just as likely to be the real explanation IMO.

2)KC's alleged desire to be rid of her child so that she could party into the sunset.
She seemed to be managing a fairly good social life before Caylee's death, and even if CA had tried to clamp down on her after discovering the lies about her 'work' and 'sleepovers with the nanny', I doubt CA would have tried to stop her gong out at all. I think KC would soon have won her over again, and we know CA loved looking after Caylee – she even said she was upset that KC 'kept Caylee with the nanny during the work trip to Jacksonville ' ( another KC invention) because she was on leave all week herself and would have looked after Caylee. I don't believe KC needed to murder Caylee to get more party time.

3)The theory that KC killed Caylee because AL did not want female children
He may have said this, but I find it hard to believe that he meant he would not want Caylee, or that KC would have thought that's what he meant. He obviously liked Caylee, and said in his texts to KC on June 16 that he cared about both of them. More importantly, KC knew that her relationship with AL was probably temporary anyway, with or without Caylee, as he was planning on moving back to NY and pursuing a career. She acknowledged this in her IM's with Iassen and also said she would not want to move to NY.

4)KC's alleged desire to reek revenge on CA
There have been many theories that KC was jealous of the CA/Caylee relationship, or that she wanted to retaliate for the alleged fight on June 15, but these are only theories, unsubstantiated as yet by hard facts. Even the alleged fight of June 15 has not yet been officially confirmed, but if it's true I'm willing to bet it wasn't the first confrontation. If KC wanted revenge, or had been planning to rid herself of Caylee for some time, why didn't she kill her sooner?

5)KC just didn't want Caylee and had no love for her
I haven't formed any firm opinion on KC's relationship with Caylee, and it's possible that the mother/daughter bond was impaired in some way (possibly due to CA's interference and need for control). It may have been nearer to a big/little sister relationship than a true motherly bond, but all of KC's friends and family say she showed Caylee real affection, looked after her well, was never seen to be mean to her, interacted well with her etc. Apart from the odd expression of frustration ( and what young single mother never experiences that?), there is no evidence that I have seen that proves KC did not care for Caylee.

Have I missed any? I'll do a further post on evidence that I think supports an accident scenario later, as this one is getting rather long.
 
Why why why would she rather make up this whole web of lies then just say it was an accidental drowning and I hid her cause I felt guilty. That would be better than having detectives and police think you intentionally murdered your baby and hid her body. I would think if she drowned, she'd just have taken her time about calling 911 and then said it was an accident.

The lies point to an elaborate coverup of something that went down that was terribly horrific. I even thought, in the beginning, she'd be better off just saying she didn't mean to kill her, she just wanted to knock her out, but if it were a drowning, that's even better at taking the heat off her. If it were a drowning, I think she would have come forward by now just to save her *advertiser censored*. Shoot, we'd feel sorry for her, almost, if her kid drowned, not looking at the death penalty!!!

My honest feeling is Casey wasn't even nice enough to take time out of her miserable life to let her little girl go for a swim on a hot summer day. She probably had her in her suit thinking that if it were hot, she wouldn't die of heat exhaustion in the car, or maybe its the only thing clean she grabbed quick and dressed her in that day. A suit is a lot easier to put on then clean underwear and a little dress.

A swimming pool drowning? An accident? A coverup of a neglectful drowning, come on!!!!! That would be a cinch to defend in court. A drugging and duct tape? A lot harder to defend. Besides, why would she have duct tape on her if she drowned? No one can figure out her mind. No one.
 
Why why why would she rather make up this whole web of lies then just say it was an accidental drowning and I hid her cause I felt guilty. That would be better than having detectives and police think you intentionally murdered your baby and hid her body. I would think if she drowned, she'd just have taken her time about calling 911 and then said it was an accident.

The lies point to an elaborate coverup of something that went down that was terribly horrific. I even thought, in the beginning, she'd be better off just saying she didn't mean to kill her, she just wanted to knock her out, but if it were a drowning, that's even better at taking the heat off her. If it were a drowning, I think she would have come forward by now just to save her *advertiser censored*. Shoot, we'd feel sorry for her, almost, if her kid drowned, not looking at the death penalty!!!

My honest feeling is Casey wasn't even nice enough to take time out of her miserable life to let her little girl go for a swim on a hot summer day. She probably had her in her suit thinking that if it were hot, she wouldn't die of heat exhaustion in the car, or maybe its the only thing clean she grabbed quick and dressed her in that day. A suit is a lot easier to put on then clean underwear and a little dress.

A swimming pool drowning? An accident? A coverup of a neglectful drowning, come on!!!!! That would be a cinch to defend in court. A drugging and duct tape? A lot harder to defend. Besides, why would she have duct tape on her if she drowned? No one can figure out her mind. No one.

IMO, the opportunity for her to admit to an accident due to her own negligence had passed as soon as she wrapped Caylee's body, put her in the trunk of her car and fled from the house! That short space of time, in which I believe her shock and horror was soon overtaken by panic, and then her cowardly and selfish desire to LIE herself out of the eternal condemnation that she believed CA would reign down on her (just as she lied about almost every other aspect of her life) was the only time that she would have been likely to be believed. Once she let that moment pass when she could have done the right thing, once she left the house, she automatically closed that door and opened one marked 'suspicious activity'. How likely is it that a known compulsive liar will be believed - how could she convince anyone that she was, for once, telling the truth?
 
Well I just bet she's wishing now that she thought to say it was a drowning.
 
IMO, the opportunity for her to admit to an accident due to her own negligence had passed as soon as she wrapped Caylee's body, put her in the trunk of her car and fled from the house! That short space of time, in which I believe her shock and horror was soon overtaken by panic, and then her cowardly and selfish desire to LIE herself out of the eternal condemnation that she believed CA would reign down on her (just as she lied about almost every other aspect of her life) was the only time that she would have been likely to be believed. Once she let that moment pass when she could have done the right thing, once she left the house, she automatically closed that door and opened one marked 'suspicious activity'. How likely is it that a known compulsive liar will be believed - how could she convince anyone that she was, for once, telling the truth?

She was actually given the chance to claim accident when the police were questioning her. They pretty much offered this out up to her on a silver platter. This is a big part of why I don't think she died in the pool, either accidentally or on purpose. The only sense it made to me for Casey to not jump on the accident story is because the remains, if ever found, were not going to back it up. Here we are, all these months later, and if even one of the things are true about the remains, like the duct tape around the mouth, or the cloth over the head, plus the chloroform found in the trunk, I don't see how she could come up with any accident theory that would fly.
Lanie
 
She was actually given the chance to claim accident when the police were questioning her. They pretty much offered this out up to her on a silver platter. This is a big part of why I don't think she died in the pool, either accidentally or on purpose. The only sense it made to me for Casey to not jump on the accident story is because the remains, if ever found, were not going to back it up. Here we are, all these months later, and if even one of the things are true about the remains, like the duct tape around the mouth, or the cloth over the head, plus the chloroform found in the trunk, I don't see how she could come up with any accident theory that would fly.
Lanie

But it was already too late! If it was an accident and she told them so, they would still have conducted an investigation because she had not reported it. Out would have come the party pics, the PC searches, the stories about the family feuds, her moments of frustration captured in text messages/IMs etc. etc. etc. and in particular her propensity to LIE! Do you really think they would have believed her? I bet she didn't!
 
But it was already too late! If it was an accident and she told them so, they would still have conducted an investigation because she had not reported it. Out would have come the party pics, the PC searches, the stories about the family feuds, her moments of frustration captured in text messages/IMs etc. etc. etc. and in particular her propensity to LIE! Do you really think they would have believed her? I bet she didn't!

IF she had jumped on the opportunity they offered her to claim it was an accident, and IF she had led them to Caylee's remains, and IF nothing found about or with the remains was glaringly obvious as not fitting with the accident story, then yes, I think LE would have gone to the state, this would have been pled down, and she might have even gotten off on probation.
The bottom line is this kind of case, as this one has played out, is a nightmare for LE. They do not have an endless supply of funds to operate from, and especially in a place like Orlando, there is a lot of other crimes to be investigated and prosecuted. Because of the limitations LE and the state have to operate under, they try whatever they can to get these cases pled down and not have a trial. It's not fair, and it doesn't seem right, but unfortunately, it's the reality of the situation.
BTW, if it is relevant, I don't think for one minute this was an accident. I think Casey wanted Caylee dead, and she made it happen.
Lanie
 
Unfortunately in my life, I've been intimitately acquainted with two pathological liars, one is a best friend from childhood who I grew up with, and the other, an ex boyfriend. Pathological liars will never ever ever admit they lie, not to themselves or to anyone else. So for her to think that the cops won't believe her because she is a liar, that would force her to make the admission to herself that she is a liar, something she can't do as that being part of her pathology. Bet you anything, anything, that she will never admit ever that ZG is a made up story even if the proof of it being a lie is shoved down her throat with a shovel.

I'm not on here to argue with anyone, this is just IMO. In my IMO, this is one of those things that goes to the grave with the person involved.

As far as I know, Lizzie Borden went to her grave never admitting or denying on her death bed even, whether or not she killed her parents.
 
What are the facts and evidence that point to a premeditated murder, rather than an accident, probably due to negligence, followed by a callous cover-up?

Respectfully snipped for space.

All the things listed, they don't just stand alone. Casey didn't do just one of these things, she did them all, and the sum of all these things is what looks bad.
You refer to her nightmares. Yes, she did have them, but we don't know over what. You may assume they were over the accidental death of her child, but they could just as easily have been over the fear Caylee's remains would be found, or over TonE dumping her, or over Cindy catching up to her, or any number of other things. She could have had a bad reaction to one of the movies she and TonE rented hours after she killed her daughter, and have been having nightmares over that.
Let's go back to before Caylee was killed. Casey chose to perpetuate a lie for over 2 and a half years about having a job. This gave her the opportunity from the time Caylee was about 2 or 3 months old to pawn Caylee off on someone else. We know Lauren kept her for 8 or 9 months, we know Jesse and his mother kept her for at least a few months, and we know Cindy watched her from time to time. By the time Caylee was killed, Casey was reduced to pretending like she was going to work, then sneaking back to the house with Caylee, because, IMO, she was stuck with her. I think she got a reprieve the first week of June, while Cindy was on vacation, then it was back to all Caylee all the time. She may have been mouthing the words Caylee was her number one priority, but does this behavior look like someone who enjoys motherhood? She may have been going to parties, but there were also parties she missed. She simply did not have the freedom to come and go as she pleased like most of the people she was hanging out did. (Of course, they weren't all that free, either, working and going to school, but I don't think Casey is able to comprehend that.)
She also had issues of jealousy towards Caylee. There seems to be some competition for affection in the Caylee/Cindy/Casey triangle, she broke up with Jesse because he liked Caylee better than her.
Ricardo says when they were together, they didn't do much. Yeah, Casey could take Caylee over there, but she wasn't getting to go out. AR didn't seem to have any interest in Caylee, and while TonE seems to have liked her, he worked as a DJ, he was going out to clubs, etc., so who is going to watch Caylee so Casey can go with him?
I could go on and on. I think all these things were building up for a few months leading up to June 16. I think Casey was thinking about killing Caylee for a while. I don't think she had really formed a plan, but I do think it was in her mind she would be better off if Caylee were dead. I think everything came to a head, maybe even a few days before June 16, and that was the first opportunity she had to get rid of Caylee for good.
Lanie
 
Unfortunately in my life, I've been intimitately acquainted with two pathological liars, one is a best friend from childhood who I grew up with, and the other, an ex boyfriend. Pathological liars will never ever ever admit they lie, not to themselves or to anyone else. So for her to think that the cops won't believe her because she is a liar, that would force her to make the admission to herself that she is a liar, something she can't do as that being part of her pathology. Bet you anything, anything, that she will never admit ever that ZG is a made up story even if the proof of it being a lie is shoved down her throat with a shovel.

I'm not on here to argue with anyone, this is just IMO. In my IMO, this is one of those things that goes to the grave with the person involved.

As far as I know, Lizzie Borden went to her grave never admitting or denying on her death bed even, whether or not she killed her parents.

Bolded by me.

Amen, sister. I, too, have some pathological liars in my life. Not fun.
Lanie
 
I think Caylee was getting old enough to let things "slip" about what was real going on with Mommy. It had to be stopped by KC or her whole life of lies would finally be exposed. The last straw was that Sunday night, and the fight with dear ole Mom. The little snothead had to go, she was to much baggage anymore for the party girl. I do not think in any way this was an innocent thing. KC has shown with her lack of caring about Caylee nothing with this innocent baby mattered to her at all.
 
The police found Caylee with duct tape around her mouth. How can anybody even suggest an accident after knowing that.She Killed her in ice cold blood that much is a fact.
 
I know she was had the opportunity to tell them it was an accident, but she lives in a different world. She has to be one of the best liars law enforcement has come across in a long time.

I think she came up with the babysitter story, and she plans to stick to it to the end.

I just went back and reviewed the video on Greta Van Susteren-Caylee's Grandparents show Greta their backyard, open their home

I find it VERY interesting that the part of the video about the tree that they moved moved AND the rubbermaid storage container is edited out.

But you can still see the container in the video-up against the pool.

I also think that her body was in the car for more than 2 days-since the smell was so bad that it could be smelled standing a few feet from the car.

Casey seems cold blooded--shopping using her friends money- stealing from her parents and grandparents. It was all about her.

I think she just wrapped the duct tape around her dead little girl's mouth to make it look like an abductor did it.

Kind of strange she placed the body so close to home. I bet some one with a more psyhe knowledge could answer this!!
 
I know she was had the opportunity to tell them it was an accident, but she lives in a different world. She has to be one of the best liars law enforcement has come across in a long time.

I think she came up with the babysitter story, and she plans to stick to it to the end.

I just went back and reviewed the video on Greta Van Susteren-Caylee's Grandparents show Greta their backyard, open their home

I find it VERY interesting that the part of the video about the tree that they moved moved AND the rubbermaid storage container is edited out.

But you can still see the container in the video-up against the pool.

I also think that her body was in the car for more than 2 days-since the smell was so bad that it could be smelled standing a few feet from the car.

Casey seems cold blooded--shopping using her friends money- stealing from her parents and grandparents. It was all about her.

I think she just wrapped the duct tape around her dead little girl's mouth to make it look like an abductor did it.

Kind of strange she placed the body so close to home. I bet some one with a more psyhe knowledge could answer this!!
Part of Greta tour talking about moving plants is here:

http://www.foxnews.com/ontherecord/caylee/index.html

Scroll down and view item about Cadaver Dogs
 
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